Jump to content
Online Baptist Community
  • Newest Sermon Entry

    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Question About Preterism


Ukulelemike

Recommended Posts

  • Moderators

I know there are some here who are either partial or full preterists. I have a question

I have been doing some study on it, since there seems to be a lot of differing views on it. One thing that I don't understand. Full preterism says that all was fulfilled in 70AD, and that, with the ending of the temple and the Jewish sacrifice, began the new heaven and new earth. So then, what now? Really, then we have absolutely no scripture to deal with AFTER the new heaven and new earth-the Bile just ends. DO we have anything to look forward to? No sun, no moon, what does that mean? For such is said to be the condition of the new earth, no sun nor moon to light it. Will things just kind of go on and on and on with no end?

What of those in Hell? No Lake of Fire for Satan and his followers, just eternally in hell? It just seems nothing is wrapped up/ What about the first resurrection? Of the saved if this is the new heaven and new earth now, when is the general resurrection of the saved, since scripture says it comes just BEFORE the return of Christ to reign 1000 years, which by Preterism is symbolic and He never actually comes. It just doesnt make sense to me.

Here's the thing: this is all very serious-I am not making light of it, rather it is my true desire to seek into all things to make sure that I am understanding it correctly. But it seems so, I don't know, endless, no closure, I guess-we just go on and on, the good and the wicked together for all time. Somehow the Bible picutres the kingdom age a lot better than what we have seen the last 2000 years, with the rule of the Catholic church and their murderous ways-doesn't seem like the peace promised.

So, how do we see these things? Seriously.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 70
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

 

I know there are some here who are either partial or full preterists. I have a question

I have been doing some study on it, since there seems to be a lot of differing views on it. One thing that I don't understand. Full preterism says that all was fulfilled in 70AD, and that, with the ending of the temple and the Jewish sacrifice, began the new heaven and new earth. So then, what now? Really, then we have absolutely no scripture to deal with AFTER the new heaven and new earth-the Bile just ends. DO we have anything to look forward to? No sun, no moon, what does that mean? For such is said to be the condition of the new earth, no sun nor moon to light it. Will things just kind of go on and on and on with no end?

What of those in Hell? No Lake of Fire for Satan and his followers, just eternally in hell? It just seems nothing is wrapped up/ What about the first resurrection? Of the saved if this is the new heaven and new earth now, when is the general resurrection of the saved, since scripture says it comes just BEFORE the return of Christ to reign 1000 years, which by Preterism is symbolic and He never actually comes. It just doesnt make sense to me.

Here's the thing: this is all very serious-I am not making light of it, rather it is my true desire to seek into all things to make sure that I am understanding it correctly. But it seems so, I don't know, endless, no closure, I guess-we just go on and on, the good and the wicked together for all time. Somehow the Bible picutres the kingdom age a lot better than what we have seen the last 2000 years, with the rule of the Catholic church and their murderous ways-doesn't seem like the peace promised.

So, how do we see these things? Seriously.

Ukelememike,

Makes good common, spiritual sense to me. If all of the events in Revelation chapter 6-20:15 is symbolism than Revelation 21:1, the new heaven and the new earth, is also symbolism. Great posting! :goodpost:

Preterism is not only unscriptural, and subject to the whims of symbolism, but it is a system of belief that makes no sense at all. As I tried to teach in my Revelation chapter 19-22 Study the brethren who symbolize Revelation are in the dark as far as prophecy is concerned. http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=12 The book of Revelation is a sealed book to our Preterist brethren.

To a Preterist, as you mentioned, there is no closure, no Tribulation Period, no fulfilled promises to Abraham and the Patriarchs, no Anti-Christ, no false prophet, no two witnesses, no final judgment on the wicked nations on the earth and no Kingdom Age, and the prophesies given by the Old Testament prophets are just for previous historical events, fulfilled, in a spiritual symbolic way, in the Church Age.

As you mentioned,  the whole system of Preterism makes no sense at all. 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

 

 

Ukelememike,

Makes good common, spiritual sense to me. If all of the events in Revelation chapter 6-20:15 is symbolism than Revelation 21:1, the new heaven and the new earth, is also symbolism. Great posting! :goodpost:

Preterism is not only unscriptural, and subject to the whims of symbolism, but it is a system of belief that makes no sense at all. As I tried to teach in my Revelation chapter 19-22 Study the brethren who symbolize Revelation are in the dark as far as prophecy is concerned. http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=12 The book of Revelation is a sealed book to our Preterist brethren.

To a Preterist, as you mentioned, there is no closure, no Tribulation Period, no fulfilled promises to Abraham and the Patriarchs, no Anti-Christ, no false prophet, no two witnesses, no final judgment on the wicked nations on the earth and no Kingdom Age, and the prophesies given by the Old Testament prophets are just for previous historical events, fulfilled, in a spiritual symbolic way, in the Church Age.

As you mentioned,  the whole system of Preterism makes no sense at all. 

 

 

 

Actually, they believe either Caesar or Gen Titus (?) who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, was the Antichrist. They believe that the calling out of the believers in 1Thes 4 took place in 70AD, and the new heaven and earth began after the destruction of Jerusalem, so, yeah, this is apparently as good as it will get, according to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

This was discussed in this thread.

We do look for Jesus to return at the end of the present Gospel age of grace, when he will raise & judge the dead & bring about a NH&NE. 2 Peter 3

OT prophecy focuses on Jesus & his saving work, the new covenant including all nations, & the eternal blessing for all God's redeemed people in Abraham's Seed - Christ. See Hebrews. 

I do not hold to the version of preterism that ends all prophecy in AD 70. 

added:

I do not know of an acceptable term for what I believe -

"partial preterism" doesn't define it,;

"Covenant theology" should be clear but many of you call it heresy, presumably because of your reading of dispy sources that redefine what others believe so that they can refute their own misunderstandings.

The old covenant Scriptures are concerned with the outworking of the covenant promises to Abraham in the people of Israel, with many aspects of that outworking being examples & shadows, pictures, of the fulfilment in & through Christ & his saving life & work. Many aspects of OT prophecy are of immediate concern to those to whom the prophecy was addressed, NOT of the events leading up to Jesus' return. They may apply down the ages as appropriate - he that hath an ear, let him hear....

The covenant relationship of God with his people is summed by the expression "I will be their God & they will be my people" that occurs in various wording throughout the Scriptures. That relationship was secured at Calvary. The OC laws & rituals were examples of the God's holy requirements that were fulfilled by Jesus in his life & death & resurrection. He is reigning from his heavenly throne, & during the present "millennium" saving sinners who enter heaven at death & will be raised at his return to enjoy the eternal NH&NE. The war against Satan has been won, but his captives are being freed in time, so that our condition by nature as rebel sinners is transformed by saving grace. We still live in a rebel world until we die. 

Aspects of "partial preterism" include the OT focus on Jesus & his redeemed people, the end of the OC & the securing of the NC at Calvary, the absolute end of all the God-ordained manifestations of the OC - obedience to the Law, the sacrificial system, priesthood, etc. Christ confirmed the covenant, & the Holy Spirit applies it. AD 70 brought that absolute end. Revelation is concerned with the events leading up to the destruction, but includes warnings & encouragements that apply throughout the Gospel age. I won't quarrel with those who see the Papacy as the great enemy of believers. 

"PP" therefore does not look for prophecy fulfilment during the present Gospel Age of Grace, but looks to Jesus' return, which brings about the absolute perfection of all prophecy. Jesus had many warnings for those who rejected him, but once "this generation" had passed, believers are encouraged to faithful living - not knowing the time of Jesus' coming.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Covenanter,

I have some questions concerning your position on your post concerning Preterism or Partial Preterism as you call  your postion. As you were vague in details I cannot comment on all of it. I found out long time ago that Preterists, and others who hold that the book of Revelation is symbolic, are vague in their answers due to that the scriptures are subject to the  whims of the Preterist. Vague answers are evasive answers.

 

This was discussed in this thread.

We do look for Jesus to return at the end of the present Gospel age of grace, when he will raise & judge the dead & bring about a NH&NE. 2 Peter 3

OT prophecy focuses on Jesus & his saving work, the new covenant including all nations, & the eternal blessing for all God's redeemed people in Abraham's Seed - Christ. See Hebrews. 

I do not hold to the version of preterism that ends all prophecy in AD 70. 

added:

I do not know of an acceptable term for what I believe -

"partial preterism" doesn't define it,; If you do not hold to the version of Preterism that all prophecy ended in 70 AD and that you cannot define 'partial Preterism' that you do believe in. How can we know what you believe? As with all the different forms of Preterism and Reformed Theology prophetical beliefs relies on symbolism and not definite scriptural belief. All forms of Preterism are subject to the whims of the individual. Therefore, all forms of Preterism and the various Reformed Theology prophetical beliefs are erroneous.

"Covenant theology" should be clear but many of you call it heresy, presumably because of your reading of dispy sources that redefine what others believe so that they can refute their own misunderstandings. This is your own private deductions. 

The old covenant Scriptures are concerned with the outworking of the covenant promises to Abraham in the people of Israel, with many aspects of that outworking being examples & shadows, pictures, of the fulfilment in & through Christ & his saving life & work. That is not entirely true. There are many promises given to the Prophets concerning the nation of Israel that you neglected to men. To only mention that the saving work of Christ fulfilled the Old Testament scriptures is not correct. Many aspects of OT prophecy are of immediate concern to those to whom the prophecy was addressed, NOT of the events leading up to Jesus' return. They may apply down the ages as appropriate - he that hath an ear, let him hear....

That is not true. The vast majority of the prophesies and promises spoken by the prophets are to be literally fulfilled by the restoration of the nation of Israel.Please note the following scripture promises and prophecies after posting.

The covenant relationship of God with his people is summed by the expression "I will be their God & they will be my people" that occurs in various wording throughout the Scriptures.  The quote in Hosea does not sum up the covenant relationship with Israel. That relationship was secured at Calvary. The covenant relationship with Israel has not been fulfilled yet. The OC  of laws & rituals were examples of the God's holy requirements that were fulfilled by Jesus in his life & death & resurrection. Your usage of 'OC' or Old Covenant  is not the proper terminology and is miss-leading. The proper terminology is the  law, or the scriptures, or the prophets, or the Psalms.    He is reigning from his heavenly throne, & during the present "millennium" saving sinners who enter heaven at death & will be raised at his return to enjoy the eternal NH&NE. The present age is not the 'millennium' in any sense of the word. The war against Satan has been won, but his captives are being freed in time, so that our condition by nature as rebel sinners is transformed by saving grace. According to 1 Peter 5:8 and 9, and other passages, the war against Satan is still going on until Revelation 20:10.  We still live in a rebel world until we die. This is a partial truth; Satan is still the god of this world blinding the eyes of the lost, 2 Corinthians 4:4

Aspects of "partial preterism" include the OT focus on Jesus & his redeemed people, the end of the OC & the securing of the NC at Calvary, the absolute end of all the God-ordained manifestations of the OC - obedience to the Law, the sacrificial system, priesthood, etc. Christ confirmed the covenant, & the Holy Spirit applies it. AD 70 brought that absolute end.  That is an erroneous statement. Please study the  above Old Testament references  given above. And, Ezekiel chapter 38-44 is still yet to be fulfilled.  Revelation is concerned with the events leading up to the destruction, but includes warnings & encouragements that apply throughout the Gospel age. I won't quarrel with those who see the Papacy as the great enemy of believers.    "PP" therefore does not look for prophecy fulfilment during the present Gospel Age of Grace, but looks to Jesus' return, which brings about the absolute perfection of all prophecy. Jesus had many warnings for those who rejected him, but once "this generation" had passed, believers are encouraged to faithful living - not knowing the time of Jesus' coming. Revelation is a book of prophecy concerning literal future events that have not been fulfilled yet.  

 

 

The following is a list of literal prophecies and promises given to the nation of Israel and will be fulfilled as the book of Revelation tells us. None of the following prophesies and promises were fulfilled at Calvary. in 70 a.d.,  nor in the New Testament Church Age.

Isaiah 9:6 tells us there will be no end to the Kingdom. The Kingdom will continue throughout eternity.

Isaiah chapter 11 the animal kingdom will be changed among other physical blessings.

Isaiah 24:23 After the horrific happenings listed in Isaiah 24:1-22 the, “... LORD of hosts shall reign in Mt Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.”

Isaiah chapter 35 tells us of the great physical blessings in the Millennium.

Isaiah 30:18-26

Isaiah chapter 60 tells us that the Lord will not only restore the nation of Israel but He will glorify the nation of Israel. Isaiah 60:12, “For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yes, those nations shall be utterly wasted.” May I at this juncture remind the Saved Gentiles that the church did not, ‘replace,’ Israel, but the Saved Gentiles are, ‘grafted,’ into the nation of Israel. Romans 11

Isaiah 65:17-25 tells us of the increase of longevity and, ‘... the wolf and the lamb shall feed together...’ see also Zechariah 8:1-8

Ezekiel chapter 47 tells us further great physical changes and blessings.

Hosea 3:5 David will be King over Israel.

Micah 4:1-7 tells us all nations will come to the Millennial Temple.

Zechariah chapter 3 the LORD will take away the filthy garments of the Joshua the High priest in order to serve, ‘... my servant the BRANCH.’ The, BRANCH,’ is the Lord Jesus as KING.

Zechariah 8:21-23 tells us of the restoration of the Jew to international prominence.

Zechariah 9:10 tells us how far the dominion will cover.

Zechariah 12:9-14 tell how the Jews will mourn for the previous unbelief.

Zechariah chapter 14:4-11 and 16-21 tells us of changes of the land and the nations.

Joel 3:18; 2:24-26

 Amos 9:13

Isaiah 55:12 & 13

Psalm 67:6

Alan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

How many times have we heard this used (This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.) to prove everything happened in 70AD?

 

 

So if verse 24 is speaking of the pre-told future how will the Jews from Jerusalem be led away captive in all nations for just a short time before Jesus coming to Rapture the Church?

It did happen - in AD 70.

The rapture is part of partial preterism. The church age was over in the year 70. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Clipboard01.thumb.jpg.a4c466a42617943849

I don't think he included your so called rapture what the scripture says is our gathering to meet the Lord.

 

 

Here is a question for you.

I was taught variously that there were two comings, Once for the saints and then with the saints,  Or that they were two stages in one coming.  But Sir Richard Anderson said the was a third coming, and perhaps other comings as well. 

How many second comings are there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

The Bible gives, technically, 2-1/2 comings, for lack of a better term:

  1: Jesus as suffering Lamb of God to die for the sin of the world

  1/2: Jesus coming in the clouds at the "rapture", so called, of the saints

  2-1/2 : Jesus return as reigning King.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I don't think he included your so called rapture what the scripture says is our gathering to meet the Lord.

 

 

Here is a question for you.

I was taught variously that there were two comings, Once for the saints and then with the saints,  Or that they were two stages in one coming.  But Sir Richard Anderson said the was a third coming, and perhaps other comings as well. 

How many second comings are there?

Can't argue with apostates folks. Read their posts carefully

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

wretched,

Thank you for your acute observation. An individual who is an apostate is one who has departed, willingly and knowingly, from the faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Of which no one here has.

Thank you Alan, for your insight of wisdom. 

Wretched is one who of those who is teaching novel doctrines.  

1Tim4:1  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

And he calls others apostates.  I pity him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

The Bible gives, technically, 2-1/2 comings, for lack of a better term:

  1: Jesus as suffering Lamb of God to die for the sin of the world

  1/2: Jesus coming in the clouds at the "rapture", so called, of the saints

  2-1/2 : Jesus return as reigning King.

Or is the "1/2" coming in the clouds his veiled coming in AD 70? 

Mark 12:What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Or is the "1/2" coming in the clouds his veiled coming in AD 70? 

Mark 12:What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

Well, yes, except He didn't come then. Wasn't aware of the graves being emptied of the dead in Christ, and all the believers being taken up and resurreected into their glorified bodies. Seems some of the born again writers after that might have mentioned it.  What was the point of Jesus coming in the clouds in 70AD?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Please read the parable I quoted - the husbandmen. That isn't a coming for resurrection, nor "rapture." 

And the kingdom marriage in Mat. 22 & the kingdom parable in Luke 19. 

And consider the possibility that they relate to AD 70.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

Then what you are suggesting is that Jesus came a whole other time.   No, I suspect that this was fulfilled when the husbandmen, the Pharisees and all the Jews present, killed Christ, the Son, and He came back three days later and sent His disciples into all the world. Though many of the Jews believed and were saved, notice that, on Pentecost, a majority were from all over the world. Jesus told them they would be witnesses to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the earth-hence, the kingdom was, at that point, given to everyone, and the work was going out of Israel, not in to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Uh, has anyone considered that in the Mark 12:1-11 parable, "the lord of the vineyard" and his one wellbeloved son are not the same person?  Grammatically, in Mark 12:9 the one who comes and destroys the husbandmen and then gives the vineyard unto others is not the wellbeloved son (who was the one killed and cast out by the husbandmen), but is "the lord of the vineyard" himself.  Thus Mark 12:6 speaks concerning God the Son's first coming; Mark 12:7 speaks concerning God the Son's crucifixion; and Mark 12:8 speaks concerning God the Father's coming in judgment upon "the husbandmen."

Precision in Bible study is important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recent Achievements

    • Napsterdad earned a badge
      First Post
    • StandInTheGap earned a badge
      Week One Done
    • Mark C went up a rank
      Rookie
    • Mark C earned a badge
      Dedicated
    • Mark C earned a badge
      Collaborator
  • Tell a friend

    Love Online Baptist Community? Tell a friend!
  • Members

  • Popular Now

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 0 replies
    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 1 reply
    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
      · 0 replies
    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
      · 0 replies
    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
      · 0 replies
  • Topics

×
×
  • Create New...