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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Titus


Alan
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Titus 3:10-14

 

Avoid Heretics

     Verse 10 and 11

     (10) A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject;

     (11) Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Throughout his Epistles, Paul emphasized that the man of God should study the scriptures in order to learn sound doctrine. When we learn sound doctrine, we can learn the truth about God and please Him.

One the other side, when a person learns, and teaches doctrinal error, he is a heretic. If possible, he must be twice confronted with his doctrinal error and given the opportunity to change his belief. If he does not change, then he must be marked as a heretic and avoided. Paul brought out this principle very clearly in Romans 16:17, “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.” If a man is a true man of God, then he will teach against heretical doctrine.

We need to take the example of the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus did not spend the majority of His time in debates with the Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees of His day. The Lord Jesus said concerning the heretics of His day, “Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” Matthew 15:14

But, when they, like Nicodemus in John chapter 3, earnestly sought Him to learn then He discussed with them the scriptures. When He was able to preach against their hypocrisy, as in Matthew chapter 23, He did so. But He spent the majority of His time with those who were earnestly seeking the God’s word and would listen to Him with a willing heart. It takes a spiritual walk with the Lord in order to discern who to spend time with and who not to spend time.

The man who stays a heretic is spiritually subverted and sinning against God. God, in His own timing, will judge all heretics and condemn them for their error. We need to realize that sound doctrine is a must for the man of God and that God does not take lightly bad doctrine. The man of God needs to fear God and not the religious denominations of this world.

H. A. Ironside, in his commentary on Titus also properly noted that being overly concerned with religious theories, (unsound doctrine), will harm our spiritual walk with Christ. He said, “But occupation with idle theories is of no value toward a holy life.”[1

 

Also, it would do us well to study, and apply to our hearts, Ecclesiastes 5:1-11. Ecclesiastes 5:1-11 explains to all of us that we should not vow, or enter into the ministry, lightly. We must take careful consideration of what we are doing and whom we are serving.

King Solomon also said, concerning the ministry, “It is a snare to the man who devoureth that which is holy, and after vows to make inquiry.” Proverbs 20:25. The word of God, and the ministry, is holy unto the Lord, and He expects us to take the scriptures and the ministry seriously. When a man continues to believe, and teach, unsound doctrine, then he is a heretic and must be avoided.

Do you remember when the Lord Jesus spoke to the Sadducees in Matthew 22:23-33? The Sadducees were heretical in their doctrines. In this specific case, they did not believe in the physical resurrection, (like the modern day Jehovah's Witnesses), of the saints. They did not know the scriptures nor did they know God in their hearts, Matthew 22:29. The Lord Jesus openly marked them as heretics and warned His disciples to avoid them.

When it comes to modern day heretical doctrines, the man of God needs to warn the people and mark them who are heretics. We need to note that we are not talking about personal practices or agendas. Some examples of the modern day heretical denominations are:

     1. The Mormons.

     2. The Jehovah's Witnesses.

     3. Charismatics that talk in gibberish, (tongues). Please note that the biblical gift of tongues as the ability to talk in another language by the power of the Holy Spirit.

     4. Ministers who deride the Authorized Version of the Bible and promote new versions of the Bible.

     5. Seventh Day Adventists.

     6. Any denomination that teaches a person must work for their salvation.

     7. Any religion that practices idolatry.

The man of God who desires to serve the Lord must learn sound doctrine and avoid those who teach unsound doctrine.

Godly Saints

     Verse 12-14.

     (12) When I shall send Artemas unto thee, or Tychicus, be diligent to come unto me to Nicopolis: for I have determined there to winter.

(13) Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them.

     (14) And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Paul and Titus had some other mutual friends and associates that often traveled with Paul or for Paul to various locations. Paul is now informing Titus that some of these men, Artemas, and/or, Tychicus would be coming to visit him and that Titus should take care of their physical needs and too bring them to another city, Nicopolis. Paul was a very busy man in his missionary travels and is now in the process of planning his itinerary with the help of Titus.

One of the blessings that Paul discovered is that as you preach the word of God in its fullness that God will bless and that others will be saved and have a desire to serve the Lord. This is true in our age as well. In addition to some of the other notable missionaries previously mentioned, in the history of the missionary endeavor to the Chinese people we have men like Robert Morrison, (1782- 1834). Robert Morrison is considered one the first missionaries to China and was greatly used of the Lord in the early stages of Chinese missions.

Robert Morrison first arrived in Canton, China on September 4, 1807 when he was 25 years old. His initial trials were severe from fellow Englishmen and Chinese alike. Here is a good example. In his effort to fully immerse himself in Chinese in order to win them to Christ, he started wearing Chinese clothing instead of Western type clothing. This in itself created quite a stir among those that he lived near. Morrison had a true pioneer missionary spirit that is still an example to us today. The career of Morrison was a blessing to all those that he touched. Due to his exemplary live among the Chinese and the good that he brought to society, the largest mountain on Taiwan was named Mt. Morrison. Regrettably, though, it was renamed later on to Mt. Jade.

Another one of the first pioneer medical missionaries to China was Dr. Peter Parker, (1804-1888). Through his efforts, a fine hospital was built in Canton, China and he was very helpful at times to the American government administration in China. It was said of Dr. Parker that he, “…opened China at the point of the scalpel.”[2] Through Dr. Parker’s efforts, the door to China was opened for other missionaries to follow.

One thing about Paul that is helpful for us in our day is that he was a very diligent. The definition for diligent is; (1) Steady in application to business; constant in effort or exertion to accomplish what is undertaken; assiduous; attentive; industrious; not idle or negligent.

Paul was a very diligent person in his service to God, before and after salvation. He was not slothful, (lazy), in any way and did not care to be around those who were slothful in their work or character. Paul took Proverbs 22:29 to heart; “Seest thou a man diligent in his business? he shall stand before kings; and shall not stand before mean men.”

It is interesting to note that in the scriptures God saved, and called into His service many types of individuals. A lot of them were already diligent doing their business. There is an old saying, “If you want a job done, give it to a busy man.”

     Here are some examples.

     1. Paul was a very diligent Pharisee who persecuted Christians before he got saved.

     2. David was a very diligent sheepherder before God called him to be king.

     3. Moses was a highly intelligent, diligent leader when he fled Egypt.

     4. Joseph was diligent serving his father, and then diligently serving Potiphar, then diligently serving in prison. Then God used Joseph to serve Pharaoh as the second in command in Egypt.

     5. Our greatest example, the Lord Jesus, was diligently doing His Father's business before God used Him for His greatest work.

What I am trying to get across is this, God, nor Paul, has no use for a lazy, slothful man in the ministry. I cannot find in the Bible, not even one time, where God used a lazy man as a prophet or minister. “The soul of the sluggard desireth, and hath nothing: but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat.” Proverbs 13:4. A careful reading of Proverbs 6:6-11 may prove beneficial to those who have a problem with slothfulness. “Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.” Psalms 119:4

Paul then again related that we are to, “…maintain good works for necessary uses, that they may be not unfruitful.” We need to realize that as we have faith and works then God will bless our efforts. It is the will of God that we bear fruit for His honor and glory.

    There are two types of spiritual fruit that comes naturally as we labor for Christ.

The first type of fruit is the fruits of the Spirit.

    Paul said in Galatians 5:22 & 23, “And the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” As we walk in the Spirit, the Holy Spirit gives us fruit. The fruit that He gives us is profitable for us spiritually and then helps us in our lives. It is the will of God for all Christians to be fruitful and has provided the Holy Spirit to bear fruit in our lives as we serve Christ.

  The second type of fruit is the winning of souls to Christ. Proverbs 11:30 states, “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.”

It is the will of God for Christians to be soul-winners, to bear spiritual fruit. This is natural sequence of events for those who are truly working for the Lord in the Spirit. A classic example of this is in the life of Dr. Fred S. Donnelson, (1887-1974).

Dr. Donnelson, along with his wife, Effie, (1898-1994), first arrived in China in 1933. Through severe trials, including the internment during World War II in a Japanese prison camp, the Donnelsons faithfully served the Lord in the land that He called them to serve. They finally had to flee, for the third and final time, China during the Communist takeover in 1949. Between 1949 and 1952, the communist government caused all missionaries to leave China, and or killed some through false accusations. Missionary belongings, homes and churches were confiscated and the local Christian populace persecuted by imprisonment or death.

During their years on China, the Donnelson’s worked tirelessly in their efforts to win the Chinese to Christ. God blessed their efforts abundantly; they were very profitable in the sight of God with an abundance of spiritual fruit. In her book, Moongate: Glimpses of Missionary Life and Work, Mrs. Donnelson relates one of their experiences through the testimony of a Chinese convert. Please note that in China most missionaries are referred to as, “Pastor.”

 

          He [the Chinese convert] said, I am happy tonight because Jesus sent Pastor Dan (Mr. Donnelson) all the way from America…One time they came and stayed two weeks and held a tent meeting in this town [Sing Teng] of 50,000 people. I was the worst sinner among them. My family had spent a great deal of money at the temples and before the idols, hoping that they could reform me, and make me a good man…That first night when the gospel was preached I was told of One who could take away this sin and make me anew. I went forward and they prayed for me and I accepted Christ as my own personal Saviour, and I have truly found life in Him. Because of this great miracle all of my family have accepted Christ.[3]

 

The salvation of souls is the result, or fruit, of walking in the Spirit. It as both profitable in the physical realm and is profitable in the spiritual life as well.

Benediction

     Verse 15

     (15) All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen.

Titus was a man of God and was the pastor of a New Testament Church. Titus had worked hard in his service to Christ was a spiritual man. Paul was very thankful for the way that God had blessed and used Titus. Paul and the people that were with him, saluted him, and let Titus know that they were behind him in every way possible.

Brethren, we ought to be behind those who are faithfully serving the Lord in positions of leadership in the church. The ministry is not easy and those who are faithful in doctrine, in service and in their lives ought to be publicly congratulated.

Paul mentioned to Titus that we ought to love the saints. In the Bible, anybody, in the Old and in the New Testament, who was saved, was called a saint.

Here is a list of other things that every saint needs to love.

     1. The Bible. Psalms 119:140

     2. Our Wives. Ephesians 5:25

     3. Love God. Exodus 20:6

     5. Love our Neighbors and Strangers. Leviticus 19: 18 and 34

     6. Love God’s Salvation. Psalm 40:16

     7. Wisdom. Proverbs 4:5 and 6

     8. Love to do Good. Amos 5:15

     9. Love Mercy. Micah 6:8

     10. Love the Truth and Peace. Zechariah 8:16-19

     11. Love our Enemies. Matthew 5:44

     12. Love the Lord Jesus. Ephesians 6:24

     13. Wives, Love your Husbands and Children. Titus 2:4

     14. Love Life. 1 Peter 3:10

     15. Jerusalem, the Jewish Nation. Psalms 122:6

Paul realized, and wrote throughout his Epistles, that there is nothing greater than love. 1 Corinthians 13:13 tells us, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”

As Paul concluded his Epistles with the grace of God bestowed upon his hearers, I would also like to conclude this commentary on the Book of Titus. “Grace be unto you all.”

 

[1] Ironside, H. A. Timothy, Titus and Philemon. (Neptune, NJ: Loizeaux Brothers, 1957) Page 272.

[2] Broomhall, A. J. Hudson Taylor & China’s Open Century. (Vol. 1 Great Britain: Overseas Missionary Fellowship, 1981) Page 234.

[3] Donnelson, Effie A. Moongate: Glimpses of Missionary Life and Work. (Springfield, MO: n.p., 1976) Page 23-24.

Edited by Alan
miss-used hyphen aug. 22, 2016
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

A major problem we face today is the over-use of "heretic", applying it where it doesn't actually fit. People can have differences of opinion without it being heresy. What is considered heresy differs from one church to another. A person can walk into one IFB church and state their view and be called a heretic and yet walk into another IFB church down the street and not be considered a heretic.

There is also a difference between some having a differing view on a matter and someone who actively tries to stir up strife in a church to get the churches official position changed to suit their view. The latter would be involved in heresy.

In some churches too much time is spent looking for heretics, apostates and others to strike at rather than working to pursue personal holiness among the congregation and growth in Christ together. We need to be pursuing first things first and dealing with the others when they do actually raise their heads; and deal with them swiftly rather than allowing them to simmer to a boil before taking action.

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Brethren,

As a benediction song, in the hope that the study on Titus has been a blessing to your heart, and a benefit in your walk with Christ, I would like to conclude this study with the song, "The Lord Bless You and Keep You."

May God richly bless you all.

Alan

 

Edited by Alan
exchange a word grammer
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Brethren,

As a benediction song, in the hope that the study on Titus has been a blessing to your heart, and a benefit in your walk with Christ, I would like to conclude this study with the song, "The Lord Bless You and Keep You."

May God richly bless you all.

Alan

 

Ian (Covenanter) likes you choice of music to end this study,

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  2. A Pattern of Good Works.

     The good works that are of a spiritual nature is faithful in church attendance, soul winning, Bible studies, prayer, and faithful giving of their tithes and offerings and helping others in their time of needs. The young man that truly wants to follow the lord needs to be consistent in his service in the church.

Interesting that tithing is added to the text where the author of the epistle, The Apostle Paul,  never taught tithing in any of his epistles.  People gotta make the Bible fit their false doctrines, I suppose.

 
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On 9/17/2015, 7:25:04, Covenanter said:

Hi bjshuf,

Excellent question. I've read Alan's answer & consider it to be incorrect. 

Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 is giving signs relating to the AD 70 destruction, so that believers in Jerusalem & Judea would know when to flee the city before the destruction.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Jesus lists a variety of events that are NOT signs of the end - all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 

We have discussed at length in the debate section the interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. Simply understood it predicts the saving work of Jesus at Calvary, & the consequential destruction of Jerusalem & those who rejected their Messiah. The prophecy is fulfilled. Jesus second coming will be for resurrection & judgement, not for a complicated "end times" scenario. 

We must of course be concerned for our unsaved family members & contacts - our end times beliefs do not change the Gospel imperative - NOW is the day of salvation. 

Another time of a good point here Ian.

As usual Alan will always slam the truth compared to his opinion, and then smooth it over with his own type of apology without really being sorry.

Thanks for being here for a while to stand for truth. Sorry you aren't here now to continue.

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8 hours ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

The above post by genevanpreacher is uncalled for, trying to stir a pot of trouble :stirthepot:  and I plan to ignore it  :bored:  read my bible :bible:  get some rest :thofftobed7lpsl4: .

Alan

 

 

 

 

Amen, brother.

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  • 1 year later...
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On 11/10/2015 at 11:38 PM, Alan said:

Brethren,

The above post by genevanpreacher is uncalled for, trying to stir a pot of trouble :stirthepot:  and I plan to ignore it  :bored:  read my bible :bible:  get some rest :thofftobed7lpsl4: .

Alan

Yes, Alan, evidently I must've been. I should have made a softer answer, but can't change the past.

I try to stand for accuracy, and unless I am just ignorant on a subject, I try to keep my mouth shut. If I have, what I think would be helpful information, I try to say it with authority, and try not to look like a fool. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I don't - some here just view it as a failure.

But you know WAY back when you stated that Paul replaced Judas as the twelfth 'apostle', you lost any resemblance of being knowledgeable enough to state other things with authority. Yet, that doesn't mean, in my eyes, that you are a failure, you just look like one by that statement.

Sometimes we say things, mistakenly, and don't see the error till later. Hopefully, unless I missed seeing it in this thread, you see the error of the statement that Paul replaced Judas, as that teaches error about how the Lord already replaced Judas with Matthias.

As a man of God, are you humble enough to proclaim God's word more accurate than your stated opinion?

No where do the Holy Scriptures state that Paul's name would be on the foundation of the city of gold. It states "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" - just like when Jesus himself stated "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." and compared to "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The Lord Jesus was speaking to them that were there, and not to, or about, Paul. Yet Judas fell as the Lord knew he would - "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

The scripture was fulfilled, and Peter and the other apostle's replaced him, in Acts 1 - "For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Paul does not fulfill the needs of this position at all.

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1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Yes, Alan, evidently I must've been. I should have made a softer answer, but can't change the past.

I try to stand for accuracy, and unless I am just ignorant on a subject, I try to keep my mouth shut. If I have, what I think would be helpful information, I try to say it with authority, and try not to look like a fool. Sometimes I fail. Sometimes I don't - some here just view it as a failure.

But you know WAY back when you stated that Paul replaced Judas as the twelfth 'apostle', you lost any resemblance of being knowledgeable enough to state other things with authority. Yet, that doesn't mean, in my eyes, that you are a failure, you just look like one by that statement.

Sometimes we say things, mistakenly, and don't see the error till later. Hopefully, unless I missed seeing it in this thread, you see the error of the statement that Paul replaced Judas, as that teaches error about how the Lord already replaced Judas with Matthias.

As a man of God, are you humble enough to proclaim God's word more accurate than your stated opinion?

No where do the Holy Scriptures state that Paul's name would be on the foundation of the city of gold. It states "the twelve apostles of the Lamb" - just like when Jesus himself stated "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." and compared to "Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

The Lord Jesus was speaking to them that were there, and not to, or about, Paul. Yet Judas fell as the Lord knew he would - "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

The scripture was fulfilled, and Peter and the other apostle's replaced him, in Acts 1 - "For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Paul does not fulfill the needs of this position at all.

You should study a little deeper. Study every instance the word apostle and apostles appear in the New Testament. You may learn something

1. Paul called himself an apostle - 1Co 4:9  For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

2. 1Co 15:9  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

3. James, the Lord's brother, is now called an apostle. - Gal 1:19  But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

The book of Acts is just that, a book of the "Actions of the Apostles". It is history, good and bad, not doctrine. Jesus told Peter and the apostles to go and wait at Jerusalem. Nothing else. Don't act, don't make decisions until you have the Spirit. Just wait. But Peter was Peter, and Peter did what Peter was always doing, he got impatient, jumped up and started running his mouth. And acting. Without God. Couldn't be still. They cast lots, which they were not told to do, they picked replacements, which they were not told to do, and they acted without the leading of the Holy Spirit, which they were told NOT to do. Your quote that you italicized, bolded and underlined so proudly at the bottom of your post was Peter speaking in all of his Spirit-less carnality, and his (see what I did there?) definition of what an apostle should be. There is much more scripture supporting Paul as God's choice for Judas' replacement than there is the erstwhile Matthias. At what point was Matthias at the last supper, as you state must have happened? Only the 12 were there, so by your own standards, NO ONE would be qualified to replace Judas. Not even Matthias. Consider thoughtfully 1Co 15:8  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Alan did speak with authority, and with thoughtful study, and with correct understanding of the scripture, coupled with gentleness and humility, as he always does.

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2 hours ago, weary warrior said:

You should study a little deeper. Study every instance the word apostle and apostles appear in the New Testament. You may learn something

1. Paul called himself an apostle - 1Co 4:9  For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

2. 1Co 15:9  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

3. James, the Lord's brother, is now called an apostle. - Gal 1:19  But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

The book of Acts is just that, a book of the "Actions of the Apostles". It is history, good and bad, not doctrine. Jesus told Peter and the apostles to go and wait at Jerusalem. Nothing else. Don't act, don't make decisions until you have the Spirit. Just wait. But Peter was Peter, and Peter did what Peter was always doing, he got impatient, jumped up and started running his mouth. And acting. Without God. Couldn't be still. They cast lots, which they were not told to do, they picked replacements, which they were not told to do, and they acted without the leading of the Holy Spirit, which they were told NOT to do. Your quote that you italicized, bolded and underlined so proudly at the bottom of your post was Peter speaking in all of his Spirit-less carnality, and his (see what I did there?) definition of what an apostle should be. There is much more scripture supporting Paul as God's choice for Judas' replacement than there is the erstwhile Matthias. At what point was Matthias at the last supper, as you state must have happened? Only the 12 were there, so by your own standards, NO ONE would be qualified to replace Judas. Not even Matthias. Consider thoughtfully 1Co 15:8  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Alan did speak with authority, and with thoughtful study, and with correct understanding of the scripture, coupled with gentleness and humility, as he always does.

This is just your opinion with no support at all in the scriptures. Matthias was the replacement for Judas, regardless of when the Holy Spirit showed up at Pentecost. The Spirit showed up, not for giving wisdom on who would replace Judas, but for the wisdom on what to say to spread the gospel to all those in Jerusalem on that day.

As for your comment about Peter "speaking in all of his Spirit-less carnality" - that is just plain not true. If it had been before the Lord showed himself after his death, I would possibly agree, but Peter had been converted after he saw Jesus Christ alive. As for the Holy Spirit being the reason for your comment, I assume you think the 'baptism of the Holy Ghost' was their point of conversion, which is not true. When they saw The Lord Jesus alive after he died, they truly did believe he was the Christ for sure! That is where conversion occurs - in true full belief in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God!

Excuses for twisting the scripture are just as blasphemous as cursing God.

The 11 Apostles were lead by God's Spirit to replace Judas as the scriptures said must be done...and they did it...and nobody can change that.

One good example of NOT studying this subject is your reference above from 1 Corinthians 4, where you miss the point of the term 'apostles' - observe the highlighted words please -

9  For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

10  We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

11  Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place;

12  And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13  Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

Notice the words "we both"? Paul and who? The 11 other apostle's?

No.

Who was the other apostle with Paul?

Barnabas was.

Barnabas was the 13th apostle? Not the kind of apostle you would think, but he was. We are all apostles, just not of the original 12 that were chosen by God, which included Matthias. 

Making up a silly 'doctrine' about Matthias not being the 12th apostle is just that...silly.

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7 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

This is just your opinion with no support at all in the scriptures. Matthias was the replacement for Judas, regardless of when the Holy Spirit showed up at Pentecost. The Spirit showed up, not for giving wisdom on who would replace Judas, but for the wisdom on what to say to spread the gospel to all those in Jerusalem on that day.

I gave you many verses, and I showed you how that your own logic, verses and "proof" proved your own self wrong. You said the replacement HAD to be at the last supper.  "The Lord Jesus was speaking to them that were there, and not to, or about, Paul. (Then he wasn't speaking to or about Matthias either) Yet Judas fell as the Lord knew he would - "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

That was YOUR verse and statement. Matthias was NOT there.  You can't answer one of the verses I gave, and can't hold up the ones you gave yourself. I gave a lot of verses. You've refuted none of them. In fact, you never even gave a verse to support you silly statement regarding such a limiting view on the work of the Holy Spirit when it came upon the Apostles. You never gave an answer regarding Peter's disobedience (again) of Christ's command to go to Jerusalem and "wait", nor for the verses I gave where Paul called himself an apostle actually numbered and listed himself with the 12. To say that my answer was just my opinion and that I gave no support at all in scripture...? 

You're in rare form today, GP. I expect better from you. 

 

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5 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

I gave you many verses, and I showed you how that your own logic, verses and "proof" proved your own self wrong. You said the replacement HAD to be at the last supper.  "The Lord Jesus was speaking to them that were there, and not to, or about, Paul. (Then he wasn't speaking to or about Matthias either) Yet Judas fell as the Lord knew he would - "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

That was YOUR verse and statement. Matthias was NOT there.  You can't answer one of the verses I gave, and can't hold up the ones you gave yourself. I gave a lot of verses. You've refuted none of them. In fact, you never even gave a verse to support you silly statement regarding such a limiting view on the work of the Holy Spirit when it came upon the Apostles. You never gave an answer regarding Peter's disobedience (again) of Christ's command to go to Jerusalem and "wait", nor for the verses I gave where Paul called himself an apostle actually numbered and listed himself with the 12. To say that my answer was just my opinion and that I gave no support at all in scripture...? 

You're in rare form today, GP. I expect better from you. 

Read my last post please.

And when did I say that - "You said the replacement HAD to be at the last supper".

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8 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Read my last post please.

And when did I say that - "You said the replacement HAD to be at the last supper".

Oh good grief. I quoted it, highlighted it and referred to it twice. Do you not even know what you are saying when you spit this nonsense out?

And blasphemy? Really? Blasphemy? I interpret a scripture different than you do, not even scripture about doctrine, and you pull out "blasphemy"?!? You must be a real blessing behind a pulpit.

That's the GP I've come know, though. Sometimes you are like talking to a Mormon woman, with some of the weirdest mixture of the most feminine and circular logic imaginable.

I think I'm gonna move on for a while. You're getting me a short, and I don't want go there. It's not worth it.

 

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1 Corinthians 15:5-8

 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

 6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

 7  After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

 8  And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul differentiated himself and named himself as separate from "the twelve". Judas Iscariot didn't see the risen Christ, but he was seen by "the twelve" and seen lastly by Paul.

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Genevanpreacher,

As I taught very clearly, and as the scriptures very clearly state, Paul was an Apostle and as the scripture clearly state there are only twelve apostles.

Also, as you very well know, I closed this study on Titus as I was finished, and the comments that you wrote are not worthy of consideration. If you would like to publicly admit your mistakes and apologize for your erroneous beliefs, than I would accept those comments from you; nothing else.

No Nicolaitans and Wearywarrior,

Thank you very much for your comments and scriptural integrity. I do appreciate your posts very much.

Recent OnLine Baptist Brethren,

If some of the newer brethren here on OnIine Baptist have comments they have to make on Titus, then I would enjoy hearing them.

Alan

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5 hours ago, weary warrior said:

Oh good grief. I quoted it, highlighted it and referred to it twice. Do you not even know what you are saying when you spit this nonsense out?

And blasphemy? Really? Blasphemy? I interpret a scripture different than you do, not even scripture about doctrine, and you pull out "blasphemy"?!? You must be a real blessing behind a pulpit.

That's the GP I've come know, though. Sometimes you are like talking to a Mormon woman, with some of the weirdest mixture of the most feminine and circular logic imaginable.

I think I'm gonna move on for a while. You're getting me a short, and I don't want go there. It's not worth it.

Well here's another great 'christian' attitude.

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