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The solution is quite simple but certainly will not occur. We are in the free fall portion of the falling away IMO so don't expect any change for the better.

All discipleship, training, mentoring, encouragement, giving, edification and service is to be done in, through and out of the local church. No one should be writing books and/or making movies. God isn't leading them in any of that. He said in His Word what a pastor, deacon, evangelist is to be and a big shot author is nowhere in there. Because all leading by God occurs through His Word and by no other venue. Every single thing we do and decision we make and work for God we do is supposed to be done with and through the local NT Church as it was exampled in Acts

It is this devilish universal mentality that has muddied the waters so badly here in these last days. Believers think they can be in God's will as free agents, doing and NOT DOING whatever they want apart from the church. They ignore their own pastors because they prefer some "big shot for God's" book on the subject or their blog, or website. HOW SAD WE ARE IN THESE DAYS. All we can do to help fix it - is to fix ourselves individually and stop this satanic free agency nonsense.

All this universal free agency really means is to NOT serve the Lord and to not give and to not grow but our flesh sure loves it and will defend it vehemently.

 

Edited by wretched
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That is really a strange teaching.  And (a bit of KJV grammar here) if anyone taught it in our church, I would write to the elders. I did once but didn't get an answer.  I think they were probably divided;

There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the Church and Holy spirit will both be taken out of the way. 

Even if Christian movies were made by Christians, it wouldn't mean they were true.  There are many books written by Christians which aren't true.

Proof from the  bible please?

If I may add the disagrees with Alan who said the church would be removed

The Holy Spirit will never leave us or forsake us so both the church and the spirit will be taken up or neither will be taken up. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 indicates that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way of the Antichrist so we will be taken too.

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3 

14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;(((Israel)))

2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

Now that Israel has gathered the day of the Lord is very, very near and the rapture is more near!

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The Holy Spirit will never leave us or forsake us so both the church and the spirit will be taken up or neither will be taken up. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 indicates that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way of the Antichrist so we will be taken too.

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3 

14The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;(((Israel)))

2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

3Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

 

Now that Israel has gathered the day of the Lord is very, very near and the rapture is more near!

Strangely  2 Thessalonians 2:6-12 does not mention the Holy Spirit, so on what do you base that teaching on?

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The solution is quite simple but certainly will not occur. We are in the free fall portion of the falling away IMO so don't expect any change for the better.

All discipleship, training, mentoring, encouragement, giving, edification and service is to be done in, through and out of the local church. No one should be writing books and/or making movies. God isn't leading them in any of that. He said in His Word what a pastor, deacon, evangelist is to be and a big shot author is nowhere in there. Because all leading by God occurs through His Word and by no other venue. Every single thing we do and decision we make and work for God we do is supposed to be done with and through the local NT Church as it was exampled in Acts

It is this devilish universal mentality that has muddied the waters so badly here in these last days. Believers think they can be in God's will as free agents, doing and NOT DOING whatever they want apart from the church. They ignore their own pastors because they prefer some "big shot for God's" book on the subject or their blog, or website. HOW SAD WE ARE IN THESE DAYS. All we can do to help fix it - is to fix ourselves individually and stop this satanic free agency nonsense.

All this universal free agency really means is to NOT serve the Lord and to not give and to not grow but our flesh sure loves it and will defend it vehemently.

 

Where is the falling away taking place? Only here in America or it this happening in other countries too?

What about all those countries where Christianity is thriving? What about those nations where the lost are coming to Christ in droves?

Short of revival in America, it does seem America is not only falling away, but intent upon falling faster. If a person has or can find a good local home church it may be wise to get firmly rooted there.

It was Christian literature which helped prepare my heart to be open to Christ. It was through the showing of a Christian movie at a church on a Sunday night that I was convicted, heard the Gospel, and was born again in Christ.

During the time I was discipled I received much instruction and training through books and booklets from Oliver B. Greene, John R. Rice and others.

How many millions have come to Christ and grown in Christ through the writings of pastors God has used in mighty ways?

 

 

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Where is the falling away taking place? Only here in America or it this happening in other countries too?

What about all those countries where Christianity is thriving? What about those nations where the lost are coming to Christ in droves?

Short of revival in America, it does seem America is not only falling away, but intent upon falling faster. If a person has or can find a good local home church it may be wise to get firmly rooted there.

It was Christian literature which helped prepare my heart to be open to Christ. It was through the showing of a Christian movie at a church on a Sunday night that I was convicted, heard the Gospel, and was born again in Christ.

During the time I was discipled I received much instruction and training through books and booklets from Oliver B. Greene, John R. Rice and others.

How many millions have come to Christ and grown in Christ through the writings of pastors God has used in mighty ways?

 

 

This is a part of the point I make John. Discipleship to us is "here read this dude and that dude and I will see you back in church next week"

 

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This is a part of the point I make John. Discipleship to us is "here read this dude and that dude and I will see you back in church next week"

 

In my case, that's not what happened. The books were enhancements to the personal discipleship I received from a mature Christian man and our pastor.

I agree that simply handing someone a book and considering that to be how they disciple people is not right.

I also agree that much of what's put forth out there, especially in the American market, as Christian books are not good or worthwhile at all. The Left Behind series, all those Christian romance novels and historical Christian fiction, those excitement filled, fictionalized end times books (which are usually presented as fact), the never ending flow of prophecy books claiming "this is it", those books put forth by secular Christians, feel-good pastors, celebrity seekers and those just looking to make a buck, should all be dismissed and not even counted as Christian.

 

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It is the Comforter or Holy Spirit in the Christian that reproves the world of sin John16:7-8. That is who letteth or restrains the Antichrist.

Not so.  The early church writers all taught that the he that letteth was the Roman Emperor and the What was the Empire,  That is the true understanding  of that scripture.  The papacy could never have attained the power it did if the Emperor or the Empire was still in Place. There could never have been two empires in one place at the same time.  If Paul meant that Holy Spirit there was no reason he should not have said so.  But to mention that the Empire would end was not the wisest thing to have said.  Paul said the Christians at that time knew what he meant because he told them.  They passed it on to those following them and they told us.

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Not so.  The early church writers all taught that the he that letteth was the Roman Emperor and the What was the Empire,  That is the true understanding  of that scripture.  The papacy could never have attained the power it did if the Emperor or the Empire was still in Place. There could never have been two empires in one place at the same time.  If Paul meant that Holy Spirit there was no reason he should not have said so.  But to mention that the Empire would end was not the wisest thing to have said.  Paul said the Christians at that time knew what he meant because he told them.  They passed it on to those following them and they told us.

Wow, fascinating..I doubt I have ever witnessed Scripture reduced to hearsay and rumor so well. Early church writers, huh? I would ask who but the proper question is who cares?

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GP,

Isaiah 1-2, 19-20

I am lost here Eric. Did you by chance give a wrong reference here? I don't see anything in these verses saying what you said.

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It is the Comforter or Holy Spirit in the Christian that reproves the world of sin John16:7-8. That is who letteth or restrains the Antichrist.

Um, what about these? Is the Spirit on recess every once in a while or what?

 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

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I am lost here Eric. Did you by chance give a wrong reference here? I don't see anything in these verses saying what you said.

Thank you!

Isaiah 60:1-2,19-20

GP,

Isaiah 60:1-2, 19-20

Jesus will come to Israel who sits in darkness while the rest of the world is scorched by the sun. The kingdom begins in verse 3, notice that the sun and moon do not give light to Israel but they don't withdraw or set. The kingdom of Antichrist will stay dark as judgment from God. The New Jerusalem will be over Israel in the shadow of the moon so the light of Jesus glory will shine down on Israel. The rest of the people will come to Israel to look up and see the light of Jesus. Out side the shadow of the moon the sun's light will hurt the peoples eyes.

 

Um, what about these? Is the Spirit on recess every once in a while or what?

 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

We Christians have not done a very good job at reconciling the world to God. But it will get much worse when we are gone.

Edited by Eric Stahl
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Wow, fascinating..I doubt I have ever witnessed Scripture reduced to hearsay and rumor so well. Early church writers, huh? I would ask who but the proper question is who cares?

John is the only one who uses the word Antichrist.  He also said.

1John 1:1 ¶  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 ¶  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. See also Ch 2:7, 2:24: 3:11 . 

The reason John put strong emphasis on that which was taught from the beginning was because many departed from thefaith, following false doctrines. These he termed "antichrists".

2:18 ¶  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 ¶  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

They went "out from us", ie they were professing Christians. Even Scofield  said "They went out from us" that is doctrinally.

1 John 2:22-26 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 

Many try to seduce us these days. The 'antichrists'  that John mentions were professing Christians, trying to seduce us with false doctrines.

 4:1 ¶  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    4 ¶  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There were to be false teachers arising "among you."     2 Peter2: 1 ¶  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.  The papacy arose among the church and departed from sound doctrines.

Daniel tells us of four kingdoms.  These are usually identified as the four kingdoms of Dan 2;.  Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.  The last (Rome) had 10 horns.  Daniel explains the  horns.   24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.  

The little horn was to be a Roman power and came from the Roman  empire..  History tells us the Roman empire broke up into 10 kings or kingdoms. These are named as the Heruli,the Suevi, Bugundians, Huns, Ostrogoths ,Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and the Germans.  The papacy subdued or overthew three of these kings, the Heruli in 493,  Ostrogoths in 534 and Vandals in 553.

25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 

No one can deny that the pope has spoken great words against the most high.  Here is just one "All the faithful of Christ by necessity of salvation are subject to the Roman Pontiff who judges all men Therefore we declare, assert, define and pronounce, that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation." Boniface VIII.

The little horn was to make war with the saints, and wear them out. Christians were persecuted by Jews, then the Empire but the most intense persecution lasting centuries was by the Papacy.  It almost wiped out the church. Certainly it wore it down.

in 2 Thess, Paul tells us of a falling away or apostasy before the man of sin was to be revealed.   The Pope could not have arisen if the apostasy had not come first.  The man of sin was to come before we gather to meet the Lord, not after.

  1 ¶  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

The falling away was to come first.

4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

The papacy has done all that.  Millions worship him at his travelling masses, Cardinals and others prostrate themselves before him and kings had to kiss his feet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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John is the only one who uses the word Antichrist.  He also said.

1John 1:1 ¶  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 ¶  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. See also Ch 2:7, 2:24: 3:11 . 

The reason John put strong emphasis on that which was taught from the beginning was because many departed from thefaith, following false doctrines. These he termed "antichrists".

2:18 ¶  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 ¶  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

They went "out from us", ie they were professing Christians. Even Scofield  said "They went out from us" that is doctrinally.

1 John 2:22-26 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 

Many try to seduce us these days. The 'antichrists'  that John mentions were professing Christians, trying to seduce us with false doctrines.

 4:1 ¶  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    4 ¶  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There were to be false teachers arising "among you."     2 Peter2: 1 ¶  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.  The papacy arose among the church and departed from sound doctrines.

Daniel tells us of four kingdoms.  These are usually identified as the four kingdoms of Dan 2;.  Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.  The last (Rome) had 10 horns.  Daniel explains the  horns.   24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.  

The little horn was to be a Roman power and came from the Roman  empire..  History tells us the Roman empire broke up into 10 kings or kingdoms. These are named as the Heruli,the Suevi, Bugundians, Huns, Ostrogoths ,Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and the Germans.  The papacy subdued or overthew three of these kings, the Heruli in 493,  Ostrogoths in 534 and Vandals in 553.

25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 

No one can deny that the pope has spoken great words against the most high.  Here is just one "All the faithful of Christ by necessity of salvation are subject to the Roman Pontiff who judges all men Therefore we declare, assert, define and pronounce, that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation." Boniface VIII.

The little horn was to make war with the saints, and wear them out. Christians were persecuted by Jews, then the Empire but the most intense persecution lasting centuries was by the Papacy.  It almost wiped out the church. Certainly it wore it down.

in 2 Thess, Paul tells us of a falling away or apostasy before the man of sin was to be revealed.   The Pope could not have arisen if the apostasy had not come first.  The man of sin was to come before we gather to meet the Lord, not after.

  1 ¶  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

The falling away was to come first.

4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

The papacy has done all that.  Millions worship him at his travelling masses, Cardinals and others prostrate themselves before him and kings had to kiss his feet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are the issues I see and I appreciate the run down I really do, that clears up some things and confuses others at the same time.

1. You seem to bring down the Bible to a base form as if it written by the whims and environments of the men God chose to write it. Especially Revelation

2. You feel the need to validate Scripture by the writings of men after it was completed. This may be the worst in my opinion.

3. You can't prove your points with the Bible alone, you seem to place equal weight on the writings and history recordings of men.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Intellectualism (pride/self-glory) is the exact opposite of faith. I fear you have allowed the sin of intellectualism to steal your faith in God's Word as written.

This is where all the whacky ideas come from and it is always of the flesh....ALWAYS

 

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