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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

The 7th Shemita is here


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

That's hilarious... you didn't SAY it couldn't be a reference to the OT, you said IN the NT, lol.  And ACTS IS in the NT. Yes, he was giving reference to the book of Joel, however it IS in the new testament.  Any more "qualifiers" (after the fact) you want to make? 

It says nothing about Israel being returned to their own land.

So it doesn't make a difference if it is quoting the OT or not, it doesn't say what you claim it does.

[notice my edit in my above post, please.]

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

So when Peter was talking to "ye men of Judaea" that doesn't matter?? To take that statement out sounds like taking away from the word of God to me!

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So when Peter was talking to "ye men of Judaea" that doesn't matter?? To take that statement out sounds like taking away from the word of God to me!

What are you not seeing here? Do you think this verse says anything about Israel returning to their own land? Which words in this verse are you referring to that says they will?

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

[Please highlight the words here that make you think it is saying Israel will be returning to their own land]

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Acts 1:6-7    6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"      7" And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

My question to you would be this: If Jesus did not ever intend to restore the kingdom to Israel, would He not have said that very thing??? I contend He did not say that, He said instead: " It is not for you to know the times or the seasons" Which does show that there WILL, in fact, be a time and a season when the kingdom of Israel is restored.

Acts 3:20-21: 20 "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:" 21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

What does the word restitution mean to you? Once again,  it DOES make reference to old testament prophecies, which, for some reason, you'd like to throw out??? But may I remind you, before you throw out all OT prophecy, that many OT prophecies foretold of Jesus coming... would you throw those prophecies out also? 

 

 

 

 

 

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Acts 1:6-7    6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"      7" And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

My question to you would be this: If Jesus did not ever intend to restore the kingdom to Israel, would He not have said that very thing??? I contend He did not say that, He said instead: " It is not for you to know the times or the seasons" Which does show that there WILL, in fact, be a time and a season when the kingdom of Israel is restored.

Acts 3:20-21: 20 "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:" 21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

What does the word restitution mean to you? Once again,  it DOES make reference to old testament prophecies, which, for some reason, you'd like to throw out??? But may I remind you, before you throw out all OT prophecy, that many OT prophecies foretold of Jesus coming... would you throw those prophecies out also? 

I find it so sad that the NT would be so silent about a doctrine of the modern day church, such as the return of Israel to their own land.

Maybe because it was already fulfilled.

The Apostles surely would have mentioned it.

Surely God in human form would have mentioned it.

So why is the modern church mentioning it?

Maybe rereading Romans 4:13 might enighten some?

Seems Abraham's seed, the children of Israel, are gonna inherit the world.

Not the land called Israel, nor Jerusalem.

 

And all who are of his faith, are included as his seed.

Makes us equal. ;)

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You've left out ALL the promises of the OT, as well as the NT verses I showed you.  There are many specific verses in reference to "Israel", "Jacob", and "Jews" in the OT which haven't yet been fulfilled.  God made  plenty enough promises to those of us saved through Jesus, I'm not envious of the specific promises that God made to Israel.  They are the apple of His eye. Zechariah 2:8 "For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye."

 

Instead I am thankful for the opportunity to be grafted in buy the atoning salvation of Jesus. It's rather conceited to think we would "replace" Israel in God's eye. Romans 11:18 ""Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee."

 I'm sorry you don't see it (or don't want to see it). Either way... I'll pray for you.   

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Whether we think the Bible says Israel will be restored or not it's clear that Jews have restored Israel on at least a portion of the Promised Land. Christians have differing views on this and most of them have a "religious" foundation. Most of the rest of the world has their opinion on Israel and to one extent or another, religion plays a factor in most views.

Since Israel is in existence today we know God either directed or allowed this as part of His plan. We may quibble over the details, but it's obvious Israel has a role to play.

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I guess since nobody has a verse that says the all important words about Israel being restored to the world as a nation, it shouldn't be in the christian agenda of prophesies unfulfilled. A future 'state' of Israel is unimportant in comparison to the Gospel of Jesus Christ being preached unto the world, proclaiming a 'heavenly kingdom' is our message, not a worldly kingdom of basically unsaved folk who follow the idolatry of 'judaism' as taught by the religious 'jews' of our day. They have taken full advantage of Christianity and their 'traditions' of a returning state of Israel. I know Israelites are not immune to the Gospel. I do not hate 'jews', nor do I wish them suffering in a burning Hell. But unless they get saved in this life, they too, even though they were the apple of God's eye, will be cast into the same lake of fire as all lost people. God has no special salvation for them, but he is not willing that any of them perish, but some, if not most, will.

Few there be which find it...

The Shmita is powerless against Christians, and I feel sorry for Eric, and evidentally Ronda, as they are in the same crowd of 'traditionalists' that cannot see the forest for the trees.

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Good questions. When I have more time available I will answer.

Bro Alan

Who is the "Thee" in Isaiah 60:1-22 ?

Invicta,

I re-read, and studied, the context (Isaiah 59:20 and 21 & Chapter 61), to make sure of the correct interpretation. In Isaiah 60:1-22, "the thee," is definately referring to the restoration of nation of Israel as depicted in other passages in Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets.

The, "thee," in Isaiah cannot be in reference to the Redeemer,Christ, as spoken in Isaish 59:20 & 21 not is the, "thee," in reference to the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-3

The, "thee," in Isaiah 60:1-22 is referring to the restored nation of Israel. May I use the following two examples with a companion passge in Zechariah.

Please bear in mind. Every verse in Isaiah 60:1-22 is a reference to the literal restoration of the nation of Israel during the 1000 Year Reign of Christ as depicted in Revelation 20:3-6. None of the prophecues in Isaiah 60:1-22 were fulfilled at the end of the Bapylonian Captivity, any other time in the history of the nation of Israel, the Resurrection of Christ, 70 A.D. not at any time during the Chruch Age  either symbolicallly nor in any sense is Isaiah allegoical. All of the events, localities, nations, in Isaiah 60:1-22 are literal.

1. Verse 10, "And the sons of the strangers [Gentiles please look at verse 14 and 16] shall build up thy walls [the walls of Jerusalem], and their kings [see verse 16 again] shall minister unto thee [the restored nation of Israel; the Jews]: for in my wrath I smote thee [Israel], but in my favour have I had mercy on thee [ Israel].

There is nothing symbolic in the verse, nothing cryptic, it was not fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian Captivity, it was not fulfilled at the Resurrection or Christ, it was not fulfilled in 70 A.D. It will though be literall fulfilled in the 1000 Year Reign of Christ as written in Revelaltion 20:3-6

2. Verse 12, "For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee [Israel] shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted."

The companion prophecy of Isaiah 60:12 is Zechariah 14:16-1, "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of the nations which came up against Jerusalem [See Revelaltion19:17-21 for the fulfillment of this prophecy] [ALSO JERUSALEM IS IN ISRAEL] shall even go up from year to year [these are literal years and not symbolic in any manner] to worship the King [The Lord Jesus on His Throne in Jerusalem; Revelation 20:3-6], the LORD of hosts [see Ezekiel 43:1-6], and to keep the feast of Tabernacles [see Ezekiel and 44:24; 46:9, 11]. And it shall be , that who will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the  King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plaque, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of  tabernacles."

Again, all of these verses are very clear, all of the nations are literal, the feasts are literal, none of the above was fulfilled at Calvary, the Resurrection, at 70 A.D., nor in any manner in the Church Age. And, all of the  references to "thee, is clearly, and unmistakenly, a reference to the literal nation of Israel. When the Lord Jesus is referenced it is also very clear.

Also, please take careful note that in Isaiah 60:12 Isaiah is led by the Holy Spirit to say, "from year to year." In the book of Revelation the Holy Spirit says, "one thousand years."

Both prophesies compliment each other an as it is very obvious when one studies the book of Revelation carefully the Lord gives us finer details.

To interpret Isaiah 60:1-22 as being already fulfilled, either literally or symbolicly, is an ignorance of the truth.

Alan

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Genevanpreacher,

This thread is Eric StahI's thread on the 7th. Shemita. Eric Stahl menitoned Isaiah 60:1-22, you said he was incorrect, I spent a lot of time correctly explaining Isaiah 60:1-22 and adequatley refuting your interpretation of Isaiah 60:1-22. Obviously, because you cannot refute my post you simply ignore it and change the subject. I am not going to change the subject in another man's thread.

Alan

 

 

 

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Genevanpreacher,

This thread is Eric StahI's thread on the 7th. Shemita. Eric Stahl menitoned Isaiah 60:1-22, you said he was incorrect, I spent a lot of time correctly explaining Isaiah 60:1-22 and adequatley refuting your interpretation of Isaiah 60:1-22. Obviously, because you cannot refute my post you simply ignore it and change the subject. I am not going to change the subject in another man's thread.

Alan

I am not bothering responding to your Isaiah 'interpretation' because of your lack of 'futurist' proof on the subject regarding the lack of any mention of Israel being restored into their land as per the NT.

Surely Alan you understand if there is no mention of the importance of Israel being restored to their kingdom as a last day fulfillment of prophecy in any NT book, then any interpretation like you portray about Isaiah's prophecy is not an accurate interpretation.

And as so, since Erics posts have everything to do with this subject, I see it as very relevent to whether the Shmita is in fact of value at all in fulfilling any prophecy he can conjure up.

I read every word you posted. And I don't see what you see.

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Genevanpreacher,

In the following link I have re-given the list of literal events that will take place during the 1000 year reign of Christ, this includes Isaiah 60. At the time that I gave his list in my Revelation chapter 19-22 Study, you simply ignored them and changed the subject.

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The final gathering of Israel will happen after Jesus comes, see Isaiah 60:1-22.

Alan? Is this post from Eric that you are defending?

I suppose you like his teaching in 11 words?

Such a study!

But, alas Alan, no facts to back up his very deep teaching here.

In Revelation it is said that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Quote him testifying to the Israelites returning to their land as of prophetic importance.

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Genevanpreacher,

In the following link I have re-given the list of literal events that will take place during the 1000 year reign of Christ, this includes Isaiah 60. At the time that I gave his list in my Revelation chapter 19-22 Study, you simply ignored them and changed the subject.

If it seemed like I ignored, that means 1 of 2 things Alan.

Either you were refusing give accurate interpretations or I was busy.

Sometimes It's the latter.

Sometimes it's the former.

Either way the flaws in your teachings stand out to me and you just keep saying the same flawed stuff to support your previous teachings.

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Dear "GenevanPreacher":

I agree that both Alan and Eric have the same understanding of those verses as I do. 

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

So how long will Israel be in-part blinded to the gospel???
Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (which hasn't happened YET)
 
If they are blinded in part to the gospel, we can assume they will AT SOME FUTURE point in time be "able to see" the truth of the gospel.
And how will they be able to "see it"? When (I believe, during the tribulation) He pours out His spirit upon them. 

You asked this question: "Can you please give me one verse or more in the NToutside of the book of Revelation, that states that Israel will be gathered together and formed into a nation again? Surely, if that is the case, there should be one mention of it."

So my reply in another verse in the NT would be yet another verse which helps this understanding:

Acts 2:17
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

and WHO is Peter talking to??? Acts 2:14 tells us he is talking to " Ye men of Judaea"

and if there any doubt about whattime period he's referring to?
Look again at verse 17: "IN THE LAST DAYS"

So if he is talking to "ye men of Judaea" in reference to an event to happen in "the last days" what does that tell you????? Hmmm, could it mean that they will actually BE in Judea (in Israel) in the last days.  Of course, you will likely try to argue what you believe the "last days" to refer to. But I believe i have fulfilled a REFERENCE to ISRAEL being in their land again.

 

Interesting answer Ronda, but we are taught that the Holy Spirit will be removed in the tribulatiom.

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Dear "GenevanPreacher":

I agree that both Alan and Eric have the same understanding of those verses as I do. 

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

So how long will Israel be in-part blinded to the gospel???
Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (which hasn't happened YET)
 
If they are blinded in part to the gospel, we can assume they will AT SOME FUTURE point in time be "able to see" the truth of the gospel.
And how will they be able to "see it"? When (I believe, during the tribulation) He pours out His spirit upon them. 

You asked this question: "Can you please give me one verse or more in the NToutside of the book of Revelation, that states that Israel will be gathered together and formed into a nation again? Surely, if that is the case, there should be one mention of it."

So my reply in another verse in the NT would be yet another verse which helps this understanding:

Acts 2:17
"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

and WHO is Peter talking to??? Acts 2:14 tells us he is talking to " Ye men of Judaea"

and if there any doubt about whattime period he's referring to?
Look again at verse 17: "IN THE LAST DAYS"

So if he is talking to "ye men of Judaea" in reference to an event to happen in "the last days" what does that tell you????? Hmmm, could it mean that they will actually BE in Judea (in Israel) in the last days.  Of course, you will likely try to argue what you believe the "last days" to refer to. But I believe i have fulfilled a REFERENCE to ISRAEL being in their land again.

 

I don't see your point here.  You have taken a verse on its own and used it out of context.  Read the whole section.

14 ¶  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24  Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 ¶  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 ¶  And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43  And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Pedter was speaking to his hearers.  They would receive the Holy Spirit if they repented and were baptized. About three thousand did   and were added to the church.   Fulfilled.

But there is a promise for us here as well.  39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Interesting answer Ronda, but we are taught that the Holy Spirit will be removed in the tribulatiom.

Invicta, So do you believe the following verse is null and void?

Acts 2:17 ""And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

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Dear Invicta: You said: "I don't see your point here.  You have taken a verse on its own and used it out of context.  Read the whole section."

I was answering the question put forth by "GenevanPreacher" whose question was:
asked this question: "Can you please give me one verse or more in the NT, outside of the book of Revelation, that states that Israel will be gathered together and formed into a nation again? Surely, if that is the case, there should be one mention of it."

By the way, AFTER I answered the question, he THEN added a "qualifier" (after the verse I brought forth DID, in fact, meet his original parameters):
"Genevan Preacher" then said something to the effect that the verse I selected out of the NT didn't count (or something to that effect) because it was a NT verse quoting the OT.
Ofcourse, he THEN EDITED his statement. How convenient.

Next, you said: "Pedter was speaking to his hearers"


Just WHO were his hearers? Verse 14 tells us very plainly who they were:
"YE MEN OF JUDAEA" (verse 14) "YE MEN OF ISRAEL"(verse 22)
You can attempt to twist that and apply it to any other people group you want, but I,myself, believe the word of God is without error! If the scripture said "Judaea" and the scripture said "Israel",well then I am pretty sure that's exactly what it said!

I think it interesting that YOU called it a "slam-fest" when I and many others brought up this same line of reasoning in another thread.  I guess it's only a "slam-fest" when the view opposes your own???? 


MY stand is thus: I believe that the bible is TRUE... ALLLLLLLLLLLLL of the Bible.
To believe that the saved (or any other people group) replaces Israel or the Jews would be to deny God's word! I won't do that.
To throw out half (or even more) of the old testament and declare it null and void would be a grievous error!

In another thread I disputed this very thing. The topic was preterism. Many verses in the OT were listed by another member, which clearly showed that MANY of the OT events did NOT "already happen" in 70ad (nor in any other time period YET to date). Just one of the many opposing viewpoints is in Zechariah 8:23 "a Jew" means "a Jew", it hasn't happened YET and it WILL happen in the future. To subscribe to the viewpoint you attempt to make- I would have to believe at least 1 or 2 erroneous theories: 1. that in Zech 8:23 it already happened- (it has NOT yet happened), or 2: that the words "a Jew" would mean any saved person (since you believe the saved replace Israel and you believe the saved will receive the promises God made specifically the Israel).  Sorry... that's not what the scripture says. 
Might I also say that those who are quick to claim for themselves the blessings promised specifically to Israel, are the same people who are just as quick to deny the judgments pertaining to Israel would apply to themselves. You can't have it both ways.
Not without twisting scripture, and omitting HUGE amounts of scripture as well.  I won't do that. In all honesty I fear God's awesome power and would not dare to knowingly distort, omit, or twist scripture to make it fit what I wanted it to fit.
 God makes it pretty clear not to TAKE AWAY nor to ADD TO His words. 
However, if you want to try to apply all the blessings to yourselves without claiming any of the judgments..it's to your own peril.

Jeremiah 17:10 "I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."
Hebrews 4:12-13 12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
13 "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."
Psalm 139:2 "Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off."
and many many more.. 

 I came to this site to study the word of God... not to end up disputing over the same things thread after thread no matter what the topic is, it always gets hi-jacked to the same old place doesn't it???

So I must add these 2 last queries, which are:
     1. HOW does this have anything to do with the original topic of this threa of conversation which started with Eric claiming the subject to be:"The 7th Shemita is here"and his first post being: "are you aware and prepared"?
    To which (I would assume) the topic of conversation would have followed as to what we each or why not we each respectively thought (or didn't think) about the "7th Shemitah" and any biblical reference to support our premise.

    2. Why is it that on just about every topic which is started, one of 3 "members" here feels compelled to "de-rail the train" of conversation to include their personal theories as to "replacement theology" and/or "reformed theology",when in fact the topic usually has nothing at all to do with either?
    Why do those persons not start their own topic of conversation and discuss it amongst themselves (and anyone else who should want to join in)? INSTEAD of continually "hi-jacking" just about every other thread of conversation which does NOT pertain to what those topics?
I think I know the answer...but more importantly God knows the answer to that question,and isn't it HE (to whom knows our intentions) we should be serving?

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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