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Free Will: An Atheist's Question


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I would think that this last entry of the Professor of Atheism would clear up any doubt as to his intent in being among us.  He is here to spread confusion and doubt.  An honest man would mot be putting on such an air of superiority and using words that are not in the average persons vocabulary when just plain english that poor dumb Christians like me can understand.  Words taken from some evolutionist text for instance instead of gene which everyone knows shows his intent to overwhelm ordinary homo sapiens like me with his much superior book learnin'.  I was in agreement that we should give this sinner (as we all are) a chance to learn something but it seem to me he has shown himself for what he is by his conversation.  I am not impressed in the least by this sheep in wolves clothing and I hope not many are.  

Matthew 7:6

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."  KJV

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Hi ThePilgrim,

I apologize if I've come off as superior and I apologize for what you interpret as my advanced vocabulary. This is simply how I talk in most forums and it was not intended to ridicule anyone here. The specific example of referring to a gene as an allele was, perhaps, unfounded. However, I justify my actions in that we were on a topic devoted to science and I thus found it appropriate to use scientific terminology. This will be duly rectified.

Again, I apologize for what many seem to make me out is. I don't know what much else I can do to gain your trust and I again, humbly, offer up the possibility that I should delete my account if the majority here see me as a trespasser and trouble-doer.

Thank you all for your time

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

After reading all the latest postings by Professor in several threads I have to agree with Pilgrim, Dave, and others. There can be no discussion with someone who wants to play word games, avoid direct points, dismiss important information based upon their whim.

As pointed out previously, if Professor has grown up in a Southern Baptist family and church he's heard enough to know the truth, has chosen to reject the truth, and now seeks to entertain himself by trying to trick Christians into discussing side issues for the sake of taking cheap shots at Christianity.

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Hi John81

"After reading all the latest postings by Professor in several threads I have to agree with Pilgrim, Dave, and others."

I'm starting to see the trend here. Clearly, I am not wanted by many on this site despite my attempts to defend myself of harmful accusations and disputing the claims leveled against me.

"There can be no discussion with someone who wants to play word games, avoid direct points, dismiss important information based upon their whim."

With all due respect, what word games have I played? What direct points have I avoided? What important information have I dismissed? I've attempted to be as direct, courteous, and honest as I possibly can in my posts which are oftentimes laid out in an easy to understand point-by-point defense of my character and motives. I am simply at a loss as to what to do.

"As pointed out previously, if Professor has grown up in a Southern Baptist family and church he's heard enough to know the truth, has chosen to reject the truth,"

And, as I pointed out, having the background doesn't then mean I have every answer. I've also stated the difficulty I would encounter in posing questions directly to my family and church friends. For these reasons and because TheSword was kind enough to recommend me here, I joined this site but that decision has clearly been a source of angst for many longtime members. It is as I stated, but if my presence is undesirable, I again offer to delete my account if the prevailing consensus is against my favor. People just need to say the word.

"and now seeks to entertain himself by trying to trick Christians into discussing side issues for the sake of taking cheap shots at Christianity."

I respectfully disagree that I'm trying to "trick" anyone. I'm not here to take cheap shots either. I am here for the purposes stated. The problem is that less than half of my time here has been in any sort of fruitful discussion and has instead been spent defending my integrity. Clearly having an atheist in your midst makes many users here uncomfortable. I respectfully ask that users refrain from unjustly accusing me of such divisive behavior in the face of a lack of evidence. 

Thank you to those who will listen and understand that I have no ulterior motives 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I would like to add one last thing...

To any Christians who may be reading this thread and doubts have sprung up in regard to God being the one who causes all things to happen in your life...this would lead one to blame God for any and all troubles that may arise, any heartbreaks that may come, and any sin that may be present. Let me assure you that man has free-will, and while the Bible does teach that God works and moves in the affairs of mankind, God doesn't cause everything to happen that does happen in our lives.

This may not mean much to an unbeliever, but to a Christian...here is biblical proof that man has free-will...

This is God speaking in each instance...

Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jeremiah 32:35
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Hosea 8:4
They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

 

Now, before anyone panics and says, "But God is supposed to know everything!" Remember that God communicates with man in a way that man can comprehend and understand. His ways are above our ways, and our finite-human minds can't grasp all there is to know about him. God is holy, righteous, and true...it never entered God's mind to have (or make) them do these things...in other words...it never entered God's mind to be the "causal agent".  They committed the acts all of their own free-will. ;)

Strange...first, I made a long post in this thread that disappeared when I hit "Submit Reply". Then, I thought the above post that I quoted (from myself) had disappeared too, but I then noticed that it somehow moved to the very first reply to the question. Strange indeed.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

If a person chooses to reject God, therefore rejecting the only means of not only salvation but understanding the things of God, they can't understand spiritual matters so there is no point in continual back and forth over issues other than salvation.

Unless one is born again in Christ, whereupon the Holy Ghost comes to teach the saved person the things of God, there is no way for a person to grasp the things of God.

Arguing, debating, discussing matters of evolution vs creation and other things is pointless.

Unfortunately, Professor chooses to reject God, reject salvation through Christ, and therefore rejecting the Holy Ghost and the wisdom and teaching He provides.

Professor, unless you are willing to consider the Gospel there is nothing else to talk about because it's impossible for you to understand anything else.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

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Hi John81,

Sure, I'm willing to consider that the Gospel holds some weight. In fact, for those who have countered my syllogism with excerpts from the Bible, I argue that this merely shows logical inconsistencies in the book.

What I've gathered, essentially, is that yes, my syllogism is valid, but God also makes it clear that we have free will, so God defies logic. Is this a fair summarization?

Thanks 

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The only "fair summarization" is "ye must be born again". Who is Jesus? Is He the Way, the Truth and the Life as He said or not.

By declaring there is no God you have made your decision to reject Jesus and the only means of salvation and spiritual understanding.

If you are willing to consider the Gospel as you claim, that means you are willing to sit down with a Bible, truly consider the salvation verses and decide whether you choose to continue to deny God even exists or choose to accept the reality of God and your need to be born again in Christ.

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Hi John81,

I take issue with the characterization of my position as declaring there is no God. Rather, I simply lack a belief in said god and all others for that matter. This may appear to be arguing semantics, but it does make a difference in terms of where the burden of proof lies etc etc

I'm willing to consider the validity of the Gospel. However, this requires me to have evidence that what they say is true, how it's determined to be true, are the claims falsifiable, is there a God, and so on and so forth. Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily complicated, but I do believe I am exercising due skepticism in my investigations into Christianity and other religions.

Thanks for the comment 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

If you don't believe God exists you believe there is no God. Scripture speaks clearly to the condition of such as hold to such a view.

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John81,

Again, you mischaracterize my position. There are fundamental differences in the statements "I believe there is no God" and "I don't believe there is a God". This difference can be more clearly seen in my position: I lack belief in a god or gods.

Lack of belief is not the same as actively believing in the converse position, this is Logic 101. In particular, as mentioned, it shifts the burden of proof towards the one making the positive claim, in this case being you. If my position was as you stated, I would have to actively disprove God which I can't do.

Thanks for listening 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

John81,

Again, you mischaracterize my position. There are fundamental differences in the statements "I believe there is no God" and "I don't believe there is a God". This difference can be more clearly seen in my position: I lack belief in a god or gods.

Lack of belief is not the same as actively believing in the converse position, this is Logic 101. In particular, as mentioned, it shifts the burden of proof towards the one making the positive claim, in this case being you. If my position was as you stated, I would have to actively disprove God which I can't do.

Thanks for listening 

Amen! there's your answer right there! Quit fighting him and us and give your life to Him so he can use you for good and not evil.

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Hi Miss Daisy!

I love your enthusiasm, but you have to understand the issue isn't nearly as simple as that for me as a skeptic. I can't disprove any gods, so should I accept them all as well? Perhaps you'd argue yes, but many of these gods are contradictory of each other which would throw me in a logical mess.

To better explain my position, I can't prove that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist. Does this then mean I should be advocating for the Tooth Fairy's existence and defending her against dissenters? Of course not! I don't accept that the Tooth Fairy exists due to a lack of evidence, but I also don't advocate that she doesn't exist in light of the same lack of evidence because I understand that the general rule of thumb "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" holds up (there are cases that can be made for discrepancies, but that's off topic). This is directly analogous to my non belief in the Christian god.

But thanks for the comment :) 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

You're not on here trying to disprove any other religion's gods, only ours. Instead of trying to make us prove to you God does exist, why don't you ask Him to do it instead? God is obviously stirring your heart FOR him but your flesh/ sin nature is fighting Him. Do you have any real Christians in person in your daily life, work, school or family? 

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Hi Miss Daisy,

As stated repeatedly, I'm not trying to disprove anyone's gods. It can't be done as I've also said repeatedly and which you quoted me on. However, as for my lack of focus on other gods, this can be obviously explained by being on a website dedicated to the Christian god. Therefore this would likely be an inappropriate venue for discussion of, say, Quetzalcoatl, Zeus, Ra, or Buddha.

To answer your question, I have inquired to God to reveal Himself to me repeatedly in church and in the privacy of my own home. Unfortunately I was not granted an answer as far as I can tell.

I can only guess at what the term "True Christians" means, but I can say I attend a Baptist church and my family is Southern Baptist. Some of my friends are Christian as well, although their denominations have more variance to them.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

Lack of belief is not the same as actively believing in the converse position, this is Logic 101. In particular, as mentioned, it shifts the burden of proof towards the one making the positive claim, in this case being you. If my position was as you stated, I would have to actively disprove God which I can't do.

 

Again with "logic"...

Here's your logic. You admitted to believe in evolution. What do you base that belief on?

Have you personally performed each and every experiment (from each of the sciences) that supposedly proves evolution and the beginning of the cosmos?

Did you personally make sure that all of the instruments were calibrated prior to performing each and every one of the experiments?

Did you personally ensure that fresh standards were used (if needed) for the calibration of all of the instruments needed to perform each and every experiment from each of the sciences?

Did you personally follow standard procedures while performing each and every one of the experiments from each of the sciences?

Can you verify whether a proper chain of custody was followed (to avoid contamination and tampering) in bringing you any samples used for each and every experiment that you personally performed from each of the sciences?

After you performed each and every experiment from each and every one of the sciences, did you record the actual and truthful results of each experiment and publish your findings?

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. The answer is "no" to each question. Therefore, you are accepting (by faith) what you have been told about evolution and the beginning of the cosmos without even proving whether it's true or not. Therefore, you're a logic-hypocrite. You're not using logic at all; all that you're doing is choosing (with free-will) what the object of your faith is.

Your logic is very faulty, and you are actually living by faith.

As has been mentioned, discussing anything other than your need for salvation is fruitless.

Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23a
For the wages of sin is death;

Revelation 20:14-15
14   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15   And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Romans 6:23b
but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1   Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2   By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3   For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4   And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Romans 10:8-13
8   But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10   For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11   For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12   For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13   For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

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Hi No Nicolaitans! 

I believe I should clarify my position on evolution for this to be a fruitful discussion: I accept that the majority of scientists in the relevant fields accept that the theory evolution is the best current example for explaining the present biodiversity on the planet.

This is simply a factual statement given the influence the theory has in the relevant scientific fields. As for evidence I have directly observed or research I have conducted for myself, I have none (besides the adaptation we see when our pesticide is, at first, very successful and then less so as the immune generations thrive).

However, is this faith? Or is it at least faith to the point of what you seem to be implying? The evidence I have read about (which is how most science is communicated) has also convinced me as to the theory's validity (although my opinion is of little importance to scientists until I'm actually one myself). Furthermore, if you want to argue that accepting this evidence from a second-hand source is faith, then fine, but I argue that it is distinct from the faith you seem to imply it is. The evidence could of course be incorrect due to the majority of scientists being either inept or biased (it's happened), but that's why I "accept" science tentatively and with the knowledge that it might change.

To take you example even further, I have never observed Pluto directly. Yet we supposedly have pictures of it, research on it, books about it, and so on. So I'm forced to either accept that scientists are under a grave misapprehension or there is a massive conspiracy to shield the truth from the public. I think we can confidently say that Pluto exists though and if you wish to label this "faith", then fine, be my guest, then I have faith. But most Christians seem to think they have actual justification for believing in their god and that is what I'm here to investigate.

If you'd like to discuss evolution, I have a dedicated topic called "Opinions About Evolution?". Thanks :) 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

If you don't believe God exists you believe there is no God. Scripture speaks clearly to the condition of such as hold to such a view.

Professor,

This is very simple and clear. God makes it all very easy. Either you believe or you don't. There is no middle ground. When Judgment Day comes Jesus won't quibble with you about how you define the matter. If you have not believed God and been born again in Christ, you will be eternally lost and tormented.

There won't be a quiz on evolution or the definition of atheists (not a single atheist will exist on Judgment Day!) or one last chance to get it right. Continue to deny God, continue to reject salvation in Christ, and just as you currently stand condemned already, you will stand on Judgment Day before God drops you to your knees and you confess that Jesus Christ is Lord before being sentenced to eternal, burning torment.

Today is the day of salvation, you may not have tomorrow.

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Hi John81,

Yes I agree: either I believe or I don't. My position is I don't believe, not I believe there isn't- but we've already had this discussion.

But, again, you won't convince me through unfounded assertions. As a skeptic, I expect that claims such as you've laid out actually be substantiated before I accept them as truth.

Thanks

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

As I have stated, I'll not have any discussions with you.

You can paint it any way you wish, gloss it over if you wish...but the fact remains (and you have just admitted) that you are using faith.

You are placing your faith in something that you also admitted is only an example for explaining life, its diversity, and its origins. That's all you will ever have, because evolution cannot and will not be...observed. Therefore, evolution isn't...science. Evolution falls under "natural science". Therefore, if it can't be observed, it's not science. That alone should cause you to question your object of faith.

You are placing your faith in something that you also admitted to have only read about.

You have also admitted that the only observed research that you have personally been involved with proves adaptation...not evolution.

You put your faith in an ever-changing "book" that is proven wrong by it's own "writers" as new "chapters" are written that show previous "verses" to be wrong...even though they claimed to be true when they were written.

I have a book authored by one Person, a book that never changes, and a book that has never been proven wrong and will never be proven wrong. The same truths that were recorded in it thousands of years ago still hold true today. History has validated the truths of this book. Archaeology has validated the truths of this book. SCIENCE has validated the truths of this book.

Seems awfully logical to accept something that has been proven to be true.

You need to get saved Professor. You need to repent of this foolish logic that has you blinded to God and headed to an eternity of pain and torment in the lake of fire. You're a sinner, and as a sinner you will die and go to hell. Then, one day in the future, you will stand before God and be judged. There will be no excuses, no second chances, and no pleas of mercy will help. You will be cast alive into the lake of fire where you will spend eternity. Your only hope is to accept the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection as the payment for your sins.

Professor, the Lord Jesus Christ loves you. He died for you, he was buried for you, and he rose from the grave for you.

Read it ---> http://john3verse7.weebly.com/

 

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