Atheists and delusion

[DaveW]

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Most countries have the ability to produce chemical weapons including the UK ad US,  Does that mean anyone has the right to attack us.

The facilities in question were existing. They had the capability.

There was clear evidence of specialised transportation at the facility  prior to the invasion.

The weapons themselves were not present when the ground forces got there.

The point I was answering was regarding the WMD's not being found.

I said nothing about the "right to attack".

 

Regardless of what people might suppose, less people died daily in Iraq after Saddam was ousted than before.

Right to go in or not, the result was good for the Iraqi people.

 

[Invicta]

Saddam was a terrible dictator, but we had no business replacing him.  The US have supported meny worse dictators than him, in South America and Viet Nam.

[DaveW]

No argument - but the RESULT was good for the people.

[ThePilgrim]

No argument - but the RESULT was good for the people.

Actions have consequences and the consequences sometimes take a period of time to manifest themselves.  With the Islamic State or ISIS I believe we can say the consequences of the U.S. actions in Iraq have manifested themselves.   

[John81]

No argument - but the RESULT was good for the people.

Good for what people? Iraqi Christians have been raped, plundered, abused, murdered and run out of their homes by the tens of thousands. Iraq has become a nation of strife, a battleground for control of the Middle East and the direction of Islam.

Many Iraqis didn't like Saddam but they did like the peace and prosperity they enjoyed under Saddam. Those who posed no threat to Saddam were pretty free, especially as far as the Middle East goes, and Iraqi citizens had a higher standard of living than their neighbors.

Saddam was only a real threat to political enemies, Iran and militant Islamists.

One of the biggest mistakes America makes over and over again is failing to take history into consideration and failing to acknowledge all people are not the same. Just because we (Americans) tend to forget and ignore history we think all other people do to. However, history in the Middle East, even what we would consider ancient history, is for them as if it were yesterday. We also tend to think if we show some kindness everyone will embrace us and once we show others the wonders of democracy they will become just like us. The reality is that most Muslims in the Middle East don't want democracy, they don't want a Western life, they do view the West as the enemy and Christianity as a false religion and America and Europe as corrupters of morality with their promotion of porn, homosexuality, etc.

The reason Great Britain, America and other Western nations have often had good relations and done business with strong arm dictators is because their leaders once recognized in some places that was the only way to have stability and hope of accomplishing anything.

We live in a fallen world, with fallen leaders and governments. There will be no peace on earth until Christ establishes it Himself. No country, including America, has a mandate to police the world or attempt to turn every nation into a democracy (which we would do well to remember that democracy is a man-made, flawed form of government, not something given as God's perfect form of government).

Governments are continually deceptive, supporting one another in lies, hungry for power and control. If this were not true there would be little or no need for the massive psy-ops in governments and the military; or for covert special forces operations which are kept hidden from public knowledge; or for massive spy agencies; or black operations budgets.

Since the end of the Cold War many aspects of such things have become known (assassination attempts, coups, government infiltrations, creating civil unrest and wars, etc.) and yet so many people think such isn't going on today.

If we truly want to help a nation or people, even our own, we need to take the Gospel to them, get the Word to them in their own language, make disciples, help them to walk in the Spirit rather than the flesh.

Our wars and attempts to control and manipulate people and events according to our worldly desires will only reap more of the same.

[Potatochip]

 

Ok now I know Jesus is over every principality and power.  We obviously don't have a King.  So is how does this work with the United States.  Given that we are one of the greatest powers on the earth?  Does having a constitutional government take us out of the equation.  I would be interested in the answers.  

Proverbs 21:1  The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

[ThePilgrim]

 

Ok now I know Jesus is over every principality and power.  We obviously don't have a King.  So is how does this work with the United States.  Given that we are one of the greatest powers on the earth?  Does having a constitutional government take us out of the equation.  I would be interested in the answers.  

Proverbs 21:1  The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

There is a constitution hanging somewhere in a museum in Washington D.C. but it has nothing to do with today's government in the U.S..  What exactly God is doing in His workings in the politicians hearts in our legislatures and courts I do not pretend to know (although I do know what the final outcome will be . . . . His glory).  The world seems to be in a ever faster downward spiral today and the U.S. of A. is not outside that spiral.  America started spiraling downward when newspaper editor John O'Sullivan coined the term Manifest Destiny in 1845 and the PTB decided to make America into an empire that spanned the North American continent.  America as the Exceptional Nation has over the years fought war after war to expand it's influence around the world led in the background by the PTB.  

The constitution of the United States calls for certain officers, a congress and courts to run this nation.  These officers, the congress and the courts appear to uninformed torun this nation but who runs them?  Who pays for the multi-million dollar reelection campaigns to keep them in office until they retire in their old age.

The U.S. is not to have a king, but if Christians chose to look at him as a king so be it.  As far as God turning the heart of Obama and the rest of our kings in any direction He desires (and I have no doubt that He does) it is for His purposes He does so.  Every things He does is for the good of those who love Him and serve Him, but that does not mean that everything He does is for their immediate comfort or to placate their desires of the moment.  God raises kings up and He puts kings down and the same goes for presidents.  He raises up nations and empires and He puts them down.  

It is my contention that (though it is just my wildly insane guess) He is at this time in history of putting the United States of America down.  And why would that be?  Because it has gotten to big for it's britches.  The nation and it rulers (and that is what they are when there is no longer a observed constitution) have turned their backs on God.

Though this may not sound to patriotic, it is what I observe going on today as unpleasant as it may be.

 

Edited June 19, 2015 by ThePilgrim

[Alimantado]

 

Ok now I know Jesus is over every principality and power.  We obviously don't have a King.  So is how does this work with the United States.  Given that we are one of the greatest powers on the earth?  Does having a constitutional government take us out of the equation.  I would be interested in the answers.  

Proverbs 21:1  The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

This question comes up quite a lot on here, actually, and there are folk who maintain that because the President is a public servant and the public are 'king', verses about kings and authorities, including ones like Matt 22:21, don't apply to the US. I tend to think that although there are a plethora of mechanisms by which heads of states gain authority, they are still equivalent to kings. Otherwise the Bible would have to list every style of head of state throughout history in order to give the truth. I'm sure the Chinese don't liken their Chairman or General Secretary, or whatever the title now is, to a 'king' either.

[Potatochip]

. As far as God turning the heart of Obama and the rest of our kings in any direction He desires (and I have no doubt that He does) it is for His purposes He does so.  Every things He does is for the good of those who love Him and serve Him, but that does not mean that everything He does is for their immediate comfort or to placate their desires of the moment.  God raises kings up and He puts kings down and the same goes for presidents.  He raises up nations and empires and He puts them down.  

 

Honestly Pilgrim    That's kind of along the lines I was thinking.  Sometimes you have to wonder how all of this is going.  Your comment is interesting and contains a lot of things.  Your comment is interesting too Alimantado.  The difference in my mind anyway.  Would be the President is commander and chief of 4 armies. One good thing in this country is your free to say whatever you want.  I hope that never goes away.  Thank you for the input.  

Edited June 19, 2015 by Potatochip

[ThePilgrim]

Honestly Pilgrim    That's kind of along the lines I was thinking.  Sometimes you have to wonder how all of this is going.  Your comment is interesting and contains a lot of things.  Your comment is interesting too Alimantado.  The difference in my mind anyway.  Would be the President is commander and chief of 4 armies. One good thing in this country is your free to say whatever you want.  I hope that never goes away.  Thank you for the input.  

Since the Constitution is no longer in force in this country due to the actions of the three branches of government, Freedom of Speech as given in the Constitution does not really apply.  You have freedom of speech as long as they think no one is listening to you.  Take for instance a teachers or a professor in a college who says something that does not fit the point of view of the academic agenda of the school can he speak out and keep his position?  

A government or corporate employee is free to say what he thinks as long as he speaks where no one will hear his speech.  For instance whistleblowers cannot speak without being persecuted by the IRS or prosecuted by the Justice Department.  

You are allowed to demonstrate in front of a government building as long as you apply and pay for a permit to do so. . . . and you can be refused the permit. 

I can say about anything I want because I am just a Fundamentalist Christian Nut Job and Conspiracy Theorist also.  I can be marginalized and and once marginalized I am just as good a silenced . . . . no one listens to a Nut Job.

No we don't really have freedom of speech.

[Invicta]

Since the Constitution is no longer in force in this country due to the actions of the three branches of government, Freedom of Speech as given in the Constitution does not really apply.  You have freedom of speech as long as they think no one is listening to you.  Take for instance a teachers or a professor in a college who says something that does not fit the point of view of the academic agenda of the school can he speak out and keep his position?  

A government or corporate employee is free to say what he thinks as long as he speaks where no one will hear his speech.  For instance whistleblowers cannot speak without being persecuted by the IRS or prosecuted by the Justice Department.  

You are allowed to demonstrate in front of a government building as long as you apply and pay for a permit to do so. . . . and you can be refused the permit. 

I can say about anything I want because I am just a Fundamentalist Christian Nut Job and Conspiracy Theorist also.  I can be marginalized and and once marginalized I am just as good a silenced . . . . no one listens to a Nut Job.

No we don't really have freedom of speech.

You can say anything that you like about homosexuals as long as you don't say it is wrong or a perversion.

[Potatochip]

Have to disagree a little not a lot.  I can go anywhere anyplace on public property and preach the gospel.  In fact if people don't like what I have to say.  The courts have ruled that there is no veto power over free speech.  Another words say I'm protesting abortion or a porno palace.  I can stand on the public sidewalk right in front of that place.  Say whatever I want.  No matter who dosen't like that.  They have no veto power over what I say.  Not even with the police.  On an employers time I understand.  He's paying.  I don't need a permit because I'm not having a gathering of so many people or a parade.   That may be true about govt. buildings.  Also how far from a public official you have to be.  I guess that rule has changed in some places.  I would guess in the current crisis that would be more of a safety concern.  The public interest.  You don't want to disrupt government.  

Edited June 20, 2015 by Potatochip

[Potatochip]

You can say anything that you like about homosexuals as long as you don't say it is wrong or a perversion.

lol.  I detect a little sarcasm.  Wrong or perversion is street preacher lite lol.   I've heard them say stuff that would curl a sailor on leaves hair.  I don't do it.  I'm not going anywhere to get in a fight.  I just want to get the gospel to people.  Time is short.  It's what really matters.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Potatochip

[John81]

Have to disagree a little not a lot.  I can go anywhere anyplace on public property and preach the gospel.  In fact if people don't like what I have to say.  The courts have ruled that there is no veto power over free speech.  Another words say I'm protesting abortion or a porno palace.  I can stand on the public sidewalk right in front of that place.  Say whatever I want.  No matter who dosen't like that.  They have no veto power over what I say.  Not even with the police.  On an employers time I understand.  He's paying.  I don't need a permit because I'm not having a gathering of so many people or a parade.   That may be true about govt. buildings.  Also how far from a public official you have to be.  I guess that rule has changed in some places.  I would guess in the current crisis that would be more of a safety concern.  The public interest.  You don't want to disrupt government.  

Do we have free speech if we are prevented from making sure elected officials, those who are supposed to be representing our interests, hear our statements?

Police routinely prevent people from having free speech in certain areas using both legal and illegal means to do so.

There are many words and viewpoints which are today considered unacceptable and if one attempts to speak such they will be shouted down, beaten, arrested, figuratively tarred and feathered as intolerant (a great evil today) or as a bigot, racist, homophobe, radical fundamentalist (a great evil), and worse.

College campus' in America are notorious for restricting free speech as is the media.

Even traditional liberals decry and denounce today's overly politically correct liberals who do all they can to prevent free speech they disagree with.

The constitutional right to free speech and public assembly were specifically put in place to give the people the right and ability to confront those in power so their views, opinions, opposition or support could be clearly heard and seen. The idea of "free speech zones", which the government uses under differing names, is unconstitutional.

The Obama Administration used the IRS to target those speaking against Obama. They also put pressure on the media to not report certain matters and to put forth Obama's preferred spin on other matters. Neither of these is free speech.

Check online and there are many incidences of street preachers, Christians passing out tracts or simply sharing the Gospel, being forced out of public parks, public events, off public sidewalks, out of public parking lots, etc.

Free speech has been restricted and is in the process of being further restricted.

[2bLikeJesus]

I know I am not allowed to pass out gospel tracts on Campus, and this is a state owned college not private.  They are trying to pass a law also that will prohibit anyone from knocking on someone's door without express permission unless you are emergency or utilities personnel.  Needless to say that will kill our door knocking to spread the gospel.

Bro. Garry