Is Torture Ever Moral?

[John81]

Is Torture Ever Moral?
by Patrick J. Buchanan

04/28/2009


After opening the door to a truth commission to investigate torture by the CIA of al-Qaida subjects, and leaving the door open to prosecution of higher-ups, President Obama walked the cat back.

He is now opposed to a truth commission. That means it is dead. He is no longer interested in prosecutions. That means no independent counsel -- for now.

Sen. Harry Reid does not want any new "commissions, boards, tribunals, until we find out what the facts are." Thus, there will be none. The place to find out the facts, says the majority leader, is the intelligence committee of Sen. Dianne Feinstein.

Though belated, White House recognition that high-profile public hearings on the "enhanced interrogation techniques" used by the CIA in the Bush-Cheney years could divide the nation and rip this city apart is politically wise.

For any such investigation must move up the food chain from CIA interrogators, to White House lawyers, to the Cabinet officers who sit on the National Security Council, to Dick Cheney, to The Decider himself.

And what is the need to re-air America's dirty linen before a hostile world, when the facts are already known.

The CIA did use harsh treatment on al-Qaida. That treatment was sanctioned by White House and Justice Department lawyers. The NSC, Cheney and President Bush did sign off. And Obama has ordered all such practices discontinued.

This is not a question of "What did the president know and when did he know it?" It is a question of the legality and morality of what is already known. And on this, the country is rancorously split.

Many contend that torture is inherently evil, morally outrageous and legally impermissible under both existing U.S. law and the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war.

Moreover, they argue, torture does not work.

Its harvest is hatred, deceptions and lies. And because it is cowardly and cruel, torture degrades those who do it, as well as those to whom it is done. It instills a spirit of revenge in its victims.

When the knowledge of torture is made public, as invariably it is, it besmirches America's good name and serves as a recruiting poster for our enemies and a justification to use the same degrading methods on our men and women.

And it makes us no better than the Chinese communist brain-washers of the Korean War, the Japanese war criminals who tortured U.S. POWs and the jailers at the Hanoi Hilton who tortured Sen. John McCain.

Moreover, even if done in a few monitored cases, where it seems to be the only way to get immediate intelligence to save hundreds or thousands from imminent terror attack, down the chain of command they know it is being done. Thus, we get sadistic copycat conduct at Abu Ghraib by enlisted personnel to amuse themselves at midnight.

While the legal and moral case against torture is compelling, there is another side.

Let us put aside briefly the explosive and toxic term.

Is it ever moral to kill? Of course. We give guns to police and soldiers, and honor them as heroes when they use their guns to save lives.

Is it ever moral to inflict excruciating pain? Of course. Civil War doctors who cut off arms and legs in battlefield hospitals saved many soldiers from death by gangrene.

The morality of killing or inflicting severe pain depends, then, not only on the nature of the act, but on the circumstances and motive.

The Beltway Snipers deserved death sentences. The Navy Seal snipers who killed those three Somali pirates and saved Captain Richard Phillips deserve medals.

Consider now Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, mastermind of 9-11, which sent 3,000 Americans to horrible deaths, and who was behind, if he did not do it himself, the beheading of Danny Pearl.

Even many opponents against torture will concede we have the same right to execute Khalid Mohammed as we did Timothy McVeigh. But if we have a right to kill him, do we have no moral right to waterboard him for 20 minutes to force him to reveal plans and al-Qaida accomplices to save thousands of American lives?

Americans are divided.

"Rendition," a film based on a true story, where an innocent man suspected of belonging to a terrorist cell is sent to an Arab country and tortured, won rave reviews.

But more popular was "Taken," a film in which Liam Neeson, an ex-spy, has a daughter kidnapped by white slavers in Paris, whom he tortures for information to rescue her and bring her home.

Certainly, Cheney and Bush, who make no apologies for what they authorized to keep America safe for seven and a half years, should be held to account. But so, too, should Barack Obama, if U.S. citizens die in a terror attack the CIA might have prevented, had its interrogators not been tied to an Army Field Manual written for dealing with soldiers, not al-Qaida killers who favor "soft targets" such as subways, airliners and office buildings.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=31628

[John81]

Obama says waterboarding was torture
6 mins ago

WASHINGTON ? President Barack Obama said Wednesday night that waterboarding authorized by former President George W. Bush was torture, and the information gained from terror suspects through its use could have been obtained by other means.

"In some cases it may be harder," he conceded at a White House news conference marking a whirlwind first 100 days in office.

Obama also expressed optimism that Chrysler could remain a "going concern," possibly without filing for bankruptcy. He said "unions and creditors have come up with a set of potential concessions that they can live with," adding, "All that promises the possibility that you can get a Chrysler-Fiat merger."

The prime-time news conference was the third of Obama's presidency, and the first not dominated by the economy that has thrown millions of Americans out of work.

At a town-hall style meeting in Missouri earlier in the day, as well as in the White House East Room, Obama said progress has been made in rebuilding the economy, yet more remains.

"And all of this means you can expect an unrelenting, unyielding effort from this administration to strengthen our prosperity and our security ? in the second hundred days, and the third hundred days, and all the days after."

He called on Congress to enact his ambitious agenda, including health care legislation, a new energy policy and steps to impose new regulations on the financial industry to prevent a recurrence of the collapse that recently brought the economy to its knees.

Obama also said he was "absolutely convinced" he had acted correctly in banning waterboarding, an interrogation technique that simulates drowning, and approved making public the Bush administration memos detailing its use as well as other harsh methods used on terrorist suspects. "Not because there might not have been information that was yielded by these various detainees ... but because we could have gotten this information in other ways, in ways that were consistent with our values, in ways that were consistent with who we are."

Obama has come under heavy criticism from former Vice President Dick Cheney and other Republicans for his actions, who have questioned whether they have rendered the country less safe.

Cheney as well as some congressional Republicans have urged Obama to release memos they say will show waterboarding was successful in obtaining information. But the president, in a White House exchange with House Republican leader John Boehner last week, said the record was equivocal.

Obama told reporters he has read the documents Cheney and others are referring to.

The news conference lasted an hour and covered topics ranging from the outbreak of swine flu ? which Obama referred to as the H1N1 virus, evidently in deference to U.S. pork producers ? to abortion and the recent flare-up in violence in Iraq.

He gave assurance that one way or another Pakistan's nuclear arsenal would not fall into the hands of Islamic extremists. He said he was confident that Pakistan would handle the issue on its own but he left the door open to the U.S. taking action to secure the weapons if need be.

On the auto industry, he was notably more upbeat about Chrysler's prospects for survival than an administration report issued nearly a month ago.

"I'm feeling more optimistic," he said.

Obama did not say so, but Italian automaker Fiat Group SpA is expected to sign a partnership agreement with Chrysler LLC by Thursday as part of negotiations to keep the struggling U.S. automaker alive without bankruptcy protection.

The administration has given General Motors Corp. an additional month to present a restructuring plan that meets his administration's approval.

"They're still in the process of presenting us with another plan," he said.

He added, "I would love to get the U.S. government out of the auto business as soon as possible."

On a political matter, Obama said he thought that Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter's switch Tuesday from Republican to Democrat would "liberate him to cooperate on critical issues like health care, like infrastructure and job creation, areas where his inclinations were to work with us but he was feeling pressure not to."

Specter gave majority Democrats 59 votes in the Senate, pushing them one step closer to the 60 needed to overcome Republican filibusters. But Obama said he did not expect a rubber stamp Senate, an acknowledgment that his ambitious legislative agenda poses challenges.

The president also said he hopes Congress will take action this year on immigration, even though Vice President Joe Biden said earlier in the day that an overhaul of the existing system may have to wait for 2010.

Obama's intensive schedule for the day demonstrated the degree to which the administration saw both possibility and peril in the 100-day marker ? a symbolic milestone since Franklin Roosevelt took office in the depths of the Great Depression in 1933.

Presidential aides have derided it as a media-created "Hallmark holiday" in which the White House participates reluctantly. But they also recognize it is a time frame by which all modern presidents are judged, at least initially, and which can produce negative narratives that dog administrations for years. So the White House has jumped into the celebration with both feet, making high-level Obama advisers available anywhere they were needed over the last week and crafting the president's day to maximum advantage.

The opening act of the Obama presidency has been head-turning, not only for the dire times in which he took office but his flurry of activity.

Determined to revive the dismal economy, his signature challenge, Obama has overseen a trillion-dollar infusion of federal spending and major interventions by Washington into the private sector, from directing executive pay to seizing huge governmental ownership shares in financial institutions and possibly General Motors.

Looking forward, Obama struck a cautious note, warning that "more will be lost" in a recession that already has cost millions of Americans their homes and jobs.

Obama also has put the country on track to end the Iraq war, while escalating the one in Afghanistan.

In fact, nearly every day since Obama's Jan. 20 inauguration has brought a sweeping new promise to upend business as usual, veering from big issues to small and back.

The reward: strong public backing despite a still-staggering economy. An Associated Press-GfK poll shows that 48 percent of Americans believe the United States is headed in the right direction ? the first time in years that more people than not expressed optimism for a brighter future.

But most of what Obama has done so far, as would be expected for little more than three months, amounts to no more than a down payment.

The president stressed this theme during his speech and short question-and-answer session in a St. Louis suburb.

"Our progress has to be measured in the results that we achieve over many months and years, not the minute-by-minute talk in the media," he told a friendly crowd at a local high school. "I'm not a miracle worker."

For instance, he has begun redefining the U.S. image around the globe, a combination of his fresh look and diplomatic outreach. But those efforts will take time to bear fruit in the most difficult places, such as Iran, North Korea, Russia, Cuba and the Sudan.

Obama also said he'll close the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. But he has yet to confront the tough decisions about where to send the most problematic suspected terrorists being held there.

Most notably, Obama insisted that the massive but short-term economic stimulus that has increased the federal deficit would be unwise without a commitment to belt-tightening and a long-term reshaping of the U.S. economy.

So he has proposed an all-at-once agenda that includes increased education spending to produce a better-trained work force, greater support for renewable energy development, a high-priced system for companies to buy and sell rights to emit dangerous pollutants, a vast expansion of health insurance and new rules to rein in the riskiest Wall Street behavior. He has asked Congress to provide it all by the end of the year.

"Some of the people in Washington have been surprised," Obama said. "They said, 'Boy, he's so ambitious. He's been trying to do so much.' ... But there's no mystery to what we've done. The priorities that we've acted upon were the things that we said we'd do during the campaign."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090430/ap_ ... h/us_obama

[John81]

Muslims: 'We Do That On First Dates'
by Ann Coulter

04/29/2009


Without any pretense of an argument, which liberals are neurologically incapable of, the mainstream media are now asserting that our wussy interrogation techniques at Guantanamo constituted "torture" and have irreparably harmed America's image abroad.

Only the second of those alleged facts is true: The president's release of the Department of Justice interrogation memos undoubtedly hurt America's image abroad, as we are snickered at in capitals around the world, where they know what real torture is. The Arabs surely view these memos as a pack of lies. What about the pills Americans have to turn us gay?

The techniques used against the most stalwart al-Qaida members, such as Abu Zubaydah, included one terrifying procedure referred to as "the attention grasp." As described in horrifying detail in the Justice Department memo, the "attention grasp" consisted of:


"(G)rasping the individual with both hands, one hand on each side of the collar opening, in a controlled and quick motion. In the same motion as the grasp, the individual is drawn toward the interrogator."

The end.

There are rumors that Dick "Darth Vader" Cheney wanted to take away the interrogators' Altoids before they administered "the grasp," but Department of Justice lawyers deemed this too cruel.

And that's not all! As the torments were gradually increased, next up the interrogation ladder came "walling." This involves pushing the terrorist against a flexible wall, during which his "head and neck are supported with a rolled hood or towel that provides a C-collar effect to prevent whiplash."

People pay to have a lot rougher stuff done to them at Six Flags Great Adventure. Indeed, with plastic walls and soft neck collars, "walling" may be the world's first method of "torture" in which all the implements were made by Fisher-Price.

As the memo darkly notes, walling doesn't cause any pain, but is supposed to induce terror by making a "loud noise": "(T)he false wall is in part constructed to create a loud sound when the individual hits it, which will further shock and surprise." (!!!)

If you need a few minutes to compose yourself after being subjected to that horror, feel free to take a break from reading now. Sometimes a cold compress on the forehead is helpful, but don't let it drip or you might end up waterboarding yourself.

The CIA's interrogation techniques couldn't be more ridiculous if they were out of Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition sketch:

Cardinal! Poke her with the soft cushions! ...
Hmm! She is made of harder stuff! Cardinal Fang! Fetch ... THE COMFY CHAIR!

So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! ...

Now -- you will stay in the Comfy Chair until lunchtime, with only a cup of coffee at 11.

Further up the torture ladder -- from Guantanamo, not Monty Python -- comes the "insult slap," which is designed to be virtually painless, but involves the interrogator invading "the individual's personal space."

If that doesn't work, the interrogator shows up the next day wearing the same outfit as the terrorist. (Awkward.)

I will spare you the gruesome details of the CIA's other comical interrogation techniques and leap directly to the penultimate "torture" in their arsenal: the caterpillar.

In this unspeakable brutality, a harmless caterpillar is placed in the terrorist's cell. Justice Department lawyers expressly denied the interrogators' request to trick the terrorist into believing the caterpillar was a "stinging insect."

Human rights groups have variously described being trapped in a cell with a live caterpillar as "brutal," "soul-wrenching" and, of course, "adorable."

If the terrorist manages to survive the non-stinging caterpillar maneuver -- the most fiendish method of torture ever devised by the human mind that didn't involve being forced to watch "The View" -- CIA interrogators had another sadistic trick up their sleeves.

I am not at liberty to divulge the details, except to mention the procedure's terror-inducing name: "the ladybug."

Finally, the most savage interrogation technique at Guantanamo was "waterboarding," which is only slightly rougher than the Comfy Chair.

Tens of thousands of our troops were waterboarded over the past three decades as part of their training, but not until it was done to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed -- mastermind of the 9/11 attack on America -- were liberal consciences shocked.

I think they were mostly shocked because they couldn't figure out how Joey Buttafuoco ended up in Guantanamo.

As non-uniformed combatants, all of the detainees at Guantanamo could have been summarily shot on the battlefield under the Laws of War.

Instead, we gave them comfy chairs, free lawyers, better food than is served in Afghani caves, prayer rugs, recreational activities and top-flight medical care -- including one terrorist who was released, whereupon he rejoined the jihad against America, after being fitted for an expensive artificial leg at Guantanamo, courtesy of the U.S. taxpayer.

Only three terrorists -- who could have been shot -- were waterboarded. This is not nearly as bad as "snowboarding," which is known to cause massive buttocks pain and results in approximately 10 deaths per year.

Normal human beings -- especially those who grew up with my older brother, Jimmy -- can't read the interrogation memos without laughing.

At Al-Jazeera, they don't believe these interrogation memos are for real. Muslims look at them and say: THIS IS ALL THEY'RE DOING? We do that for practice. We do that to our friends.

But The New York Times is populated with people who can't believe they live in a country where people would put a caterpillar in a terrorist's cell.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=31669

[Revelation3:20]

All I have to say is if you support it now, don't be surprised if they do it and worse to Christians a few years down the road. The soviets had "treatment hospitals" for "insane" people who believed in Christ and waterboarding was one of their many tactics.

[John81]

All I have to say is if you support it now' date=' don't be surprised if they do it and worse to Christians a few years down the road. The soviets had "treatment hospitals" for "insane" people who believed in Christ and waterboarding was one of their many tactics.[/quote']

Very good point. In some places around the world today there are Christians who are tortured because of their faith. I have no doubt that one day...probably not that far away...Christians in America will face ever increasing persecution that will include torture and murder.

[HappyChristian]

Whether we support torture or not, it's coming to American Christians, and even American patriots who are not saved. Anyone who stands in the way of the socialistic agenda that is being pushed down our throats right now will begin to be removed...who knows when it will begin...

[Hambone]

I don't agree with torture, but I also don't believe that waterboarding is torture. I believe it is a very useful tool used in lieu of actual torture, using fear to get information. Being a trained SERE instructor, I can attest to the fact that it is extremely scary, and I would rather be beaten (which isn't torture either, in my opinion, as long as there is no permanent physical disfigurement/scarring).

I love my country as much as I love my family (in different ways, of course), but I would give my life readily for either. There is nothing I would not do to rescue or save either from harm. So, if waterboarding didn't work, and my family, or several thousand American lives were at stake, you would have to lock me up because I would do ANYTHING to protect them.

Americans should be glad they have people who protect them in spite of themselves. I have been all over the world and never seen such a spoiled, ignorant, self-absorbed bunch of people as I see in today's Americans. Speaking of the last generation or two, of course (and I am a product of the last couple generations).

[HappyChristian]

Americans should be glad they have people who protect them in spite of themselves. I have been all over the world and never seen such a spoiled, ignorant, self-absorbed bunch of people as I see in today's Americans. Speaking of the last generation or two, of course (and I am a product of the last couple generations).

AMEN! Good post, Hambone!

[Invicta]

Whether we support torture or not' date=' it's coming to American Christians, and even American patriots who are not saved. Anyone who stands in the way of the socialistic agenda that is being pushed down our throats right now will begin to be removed...who knows when it will begin...[/quote']

Hm. Was it not the conservative gov who indulged in this torture.

Torture is not designed to get the truth, in fact it cannot. It is designed to get confessions, true or not.

[Hambone]

Hm. Was it not the conservative gov who indulged in this torture.

Torture is not designed to get the truth, in fact it cannot. It is designed to get confessions, true or not.

As for your question, NO. Our government was far from conservative. Even if you consider it conservative, Nancy Pelosi and several liberal Democrats approved of the methods being used and encouraged our troops to "step it up a notch" if they needed to. It wasn't until the liberals realized the political damage that could be done to an opponent that they began to scream,"torture!" That is one reason Cheney is asking Obama to release certain documents--he knows the names.

As for your statement, I can personally attest that you can indeed get a truthful response through torture--not that that makes torture right. Again, waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. If making Ahmed Muhamed Whatever THINK that he's drowning saves one American life, it is worth it. Our own troops endure waterboarding in SERE training--not all, but some--because it is a well known tool used by more than just us, and that is why we condition our own to it--to be prepared. Of course, the enemy we are fighting now would just as soon chop off your head, or put you feet first, slowly through a wood chipper. We still haven't found a way to condition a person for a wood chipper.

Regardless, our interrogators are well trained. They know how to get good information out of prisoners, and it usually doesn't involve waterboarding. But, if a person is waterboarded, it is because we have some intel, and need details to prevent a horrible attack. A good interrogator knows if a person is being truthful or not, and how much pressure he needs to apply to get a truthful response. Most of the detainees at Gitmo would talk by simply giving them a Subway Sandwich. Literally. Osama's driver LOVED Subway, and was treated like royalty. He didn't have a cell. He had what amounted to an entire cell block--all for himself.

If you believe waterboarding, sensory dep, and sleep dep is torture, then yes, we do torture in the US.

We could do like other countries and bind you and throw you from the roof of a building, skin you, put you in a wood chipper, rape you, etc. I think I'd prefer the Americanized version myself.

If you don't like it, don't join the military--at least not an area that would require you to do something that's against your convictions. The military does the dirty work that civilians don't want to or have to do. I pray you never have to see the things I've seen, and the reason I do them is to make sure my children never have to.

[Anon]

I heard someone say that most of the things considered "torture" by the government are done by idiot high school kids to each other in the public schools all the time.

[Hambone]

I heard someone say that most of the things considered "torture" by the government are done by idiot high school kids to each other in the public schools all the time.

LOL. Scary, but funny.

[Hambone]

That's another thing I forgot to mention about American "torturers". There is always a medical team on standby in case. Sometimes fear will cause someone to pass out or--and it hasn't happened yet as far as I know, but it is possible--cardiac arrest.

[Wilchbla]

As far as I see Romans 13:1-6 would justify "torture" if it was to protect a nation's people. The Romans did far worse things than America has ever done.

[Anon]

Israel in the OT did some pretty awful things in wartime....I think there are things that God says is ok if its war/government that obviously its illegal to just one day decide to do to your neighbor.