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Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.


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The mod responsible gave reasons.

Just because you don't like those reasons does mean you can lie about it.

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Covenanter,

I re-read the post mentioned above that you linked. I am sure that Bro. Matt knows what he is doing and I do not want to interfere, discuss, or question, his methods.

Brethren,

I am in the process of completing the next lesson, Revelation 22:12 and 13, "Behold, I come quickly." If there are any more discussions, or items I need to clarify, or, any other comments that you to discuss, please bring it to my attention.

Again, I want to thank all of you for the fine spirit that all have shown towards one another lately and the interesting points of discussion that you have brought to our attention. May God bless all of you.

Alan

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In regards to the trumpets sounding: Has anyone read any of the reports which claim many people in various parts of the earth have recently heard what they described as the sound of trumpets coming from the sky?

Naturally there are some trying to connect this with Scripture and the coming of Christ.

Any idea what it may be all these people scattered around the world actually heard?

​Romans 8:22 I think the earth is groaning.

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Romans 8:22, "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travileth in pain together until now."

Eric,

Thank you very much for bringing Romans 8:22 into the discussion. Initially I think that Eric may have the right answer. I also think that if some of the other brethren have any thoughts about the noise comeing from the earth and generating it into the sound waves in the air we need to find out.

Hmmm, the more I think about it the more plausible it seems.

Any of the other brethren have a comment on it: either pro or con?

I will refrain from uploading the next lesson for a few more days while this discuss this very interesting discussion about the sound folks are hearing in the atmosphere.

Alan

 

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Maybe I'm just jaded and skeptical, but I tend to disbelieve the majority of videos I see on the internet about things like this and generally think "hoax" before "truth".  Starting with the video linked above, I have been watching various videos concerning the different sounds people are hearing in the atmosphere, mostly before a storm, and some seem interesting. However, most of the trumpet sounds are more than likely faked, one person linked to a video with a clip from a movie (a vile, rotten movie about a doomsday "preacher" judging from the short clip I watched) called Red State in which there is a "trumpet sound from heaven" and sounds exactly like the majority of the videos people are passing off as real. Some videos even sounded like the alien tripods from the modern War of the Worlds movie...

That said, I think there are real videos of actual interesting sounds coming from the atmosphere, the ocean depths, and the earth. I do believe the winds and the earth can make some really interesting sounds. (actually the sun, other planets, and even outer space have sounds emanating from them, those were fun videos) Whether or not these sounds have anything to do with prophecy, I don't really think so. I think these are just natural sounds that have been happening since the beginning, but people are paying closer attention to them and recording/sharing/talking about it more when it does happen, so it appears to be a sudden event and happening more often.

In light of Romans 8:19-23, I think it's speaking of the natural disasters, which are a constant reminder to us that even the earth itself is suffering from the decision of one man to disobey God.  

But, some of the sounds are beautiful, so I'm not sure they all fit this passage, but rather passages about nature and the earth praising God. Psalm 148

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Maybe I'm just jaded and skeptical, but I tend to disbelieve the majority of videos I see on the internet about things like this and generally think "hoax" before "truth".  Starting with the video linked above, I have been watching various videos concerning the different sounds people are hearing in the atmosphere, mostly before a storm, and some seem interesting. However, most of the trumpet sounds are more than likely faked, one person linked to a video with a clip from a movie (a vile, rotten movie about a doomsday "preacher" judging from the short clip I watched) called Red State in which there is a "trumpet sound from heaven" and sounds exactly like the majority of the videos people are passing off as real. Some videos even sounded like the alien tripods from the modern War of the Worlds movie...

That said, I think there are real videos of actual interesting sounds coming from the atmosphere, the ocean depths, and the earth. I do believe the winds and the earth can make some really interesting sounds. (actually the sun, other planets, and even outer space have sounds emanating from them, those were fun videos) Whether or not these sounds have anything to do with prophecy, I don't really think so. I think these are just natural sounds that have been happening since the beginning, but people are paying closer attention to them and recording/sharing/talking about it more when it does happen, so it appears to be a sudden event and happening more often.

In light of Romans 8:19-23, I think it's speaking of the natural disasters, which are a constant reminder to us that even the earth itself is suffering from the decision of one man to disobey God.  

But, some of the sounds are beautiful, so I'm not sure they all fit this passage, but rather passages about nature and the earth praising God. Psalm 148

​This is much in line with my thinking on the matter. After watching several different videos I really believe several (if not more) of them are fakes. The others are likely a natural matter that simply hasn't been traced yet. There have been many instances over the years of sounds of unknown origins that were eventually traced to ocean effects, certain wind patterns, etc.

Years ago when they found out stars and things in space have sounds like music someone pointed out that Scripture mentioned that centuries before. I've listened to some really good recordings of the music from some celestial bodies. One guy used the different music from different stars and put it together on a very nice video.

These sounds in the sky, not the fake ones, are likely just another aspect of God's wonderful creation.

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Li Bai Jia and John81,

Thank you for your comments and discussion. Both of you are more up to date on this matter, and have researched this matter, more than me. I appreciate your research, posts, and comments and am sure that all of your comments are a blessing to all of us and is helpful in shedding more light on the subject.

John81 also said, "These sounds in the sky, not the fake ones, are likely just another aspect of God's wonderful creation." Amen and amen! That was a great testimony to the greatness of God's wonders.

"The waters saw thee, O God, the waters saw thee; they were afraid: the depths also were troubed. The clouds poured out water: The skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad." Psalm 77:16 and 17

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the frimament sheweth his handiwork. Day unto day utttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. " Psalm 19:1-3

Anybody else want to add to this discussion? Or, maybe a scripture verse to show how the heavens sing the glory of God? Or, maybe a poem, or praise, to attest to this fact?

 

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While this verse is "controversial" among some, there are those who believe it means just what it says; that the stars were singing (as we now know they do).

"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7

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I think Job 38:7 is very appropriate for this discussion and helps in our understanding that the sounds that we hear from the earth, the planets, the stars, are are the glorification of God who created them.

 

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​So the shout is a whisper.  I don't think so.

When the angel shouts, it will be heard by all.

          ​I believe that only those in Christ, dead or who remain, will hear the shout of the Lord with the voice of the archangel and the Trump of God as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Another indication is in Revelation Chapter 20.

Revelation 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.1  14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  

                  Take note of verses 4 and 5.  It shows two resurrections. One called the first resurrection and the  other called the second death.Those verses seem to indicate that only  those of the first resurrection heard Christ. It also says blessed and holy are those who hath part in the first resurrection and further states, "On such the second death has no power."  I believe Paul clears this up in 1 Corinthians 15.  Also look at verse 11 of Revelation 20 to the end of the chapter. I do not see of the second death called but rather given up from the sea, death and hell, standing at the Great white throne judgment, and ultimately cast into the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15: 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.1 2  3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.3  9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 
 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 
 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.4  32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.5  33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 
 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 
 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?6  56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 
 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 

     This whole chapter is about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul is explaining to them that if we believe only that Jesus lived in this life and he didn't rise again, Christians are of all men miserable and that our preaching is in vain. That if Christ didn't rise we are still in our sins. And those that are dead in Christ are perished. This coincides with 1Thessalonians 4 when Paul wrote about those that  are dead in Jesus. Do no sorrow not even as others that have no hope. And even says If we believe that Jesus Died and  rose again that even those who sleep in Jesus, God will bring with him.  Nothing will prevent them that are asleep in Christ from rising.  Why? Because they have the Hope of Jesus Christ's return.  We don't live in jeopardy every hour nor are the dead in Christ perished. It isn't a whisper at all.  That shout with the voice  of the archangel and the Trump of God falls on deaf ears of the lost.  

 

 

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Kleptes,

Thank you for your thoughts on the, "shout," and the Revelation 20:4 and 5, and 1 Corinthians 15:1-58.

Also, concerning your concluding comment, "That shout with the voice  of the archangel and the Trump of God falls on deaf ears of the lost." Is a very good statement concerning the sad condition of the lost. They have deaf ears to the call of the Lord Jesus for salvation and for His coming again.

I noticed that you are a newcomer to our studies in Revelation. Welcome! If you have any comments, or, scripture passages, from previous lessons that you want to discuss, or comment, please do so. We would like to hear more of your comments.

Alan 

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Kleptes, Alan,

These are good points and also relate to what's been mentioned elsewhere with regards to how when God spoke from heaven there were those who heard the voice and others who thought it was thunder. This would seem to indicate there were those present who had ears to hear and those which were hardened so they couldn't hear.

If there is a shout from heaven calling all saved folks (dead and alive) to meet the Lord it would stand to reason only the saved would hear the call. The lost may hear something when the call is made but to them it will likely be as loud thunder or some sound other than the voice calling for the saved.

In contrast to that, it seems in Revelation 14 when the angels speak forth the people can hear them.

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Revelation 14:6 & 7, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation,and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God,and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

John 81,

You are entirely correct in your exposition. It is very clear that all of the peoples of the earth, out of all of the countries and languages of the earth, hears the voice of the angel and that they peoples of the earth have a clear meaning of the very words of the angel.

This preaching of the, 'everlasting gospel,' is in contrast to the calling of the saved in the Rapture. As you  mentioned, in the Rapture only the saved folks hear the voice of the Lord Jesus calling.

Thank you very much for your post. 

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          ​I believe that only those in Christ, dead or who remain, will hear the shout of the Lord with the voice of the archangel and the Trump of God as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Another indication is in Revelation Chapter 20.

Revelation 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.1  14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  

                  Take note of verses 4 and 5.  It shows two resurrections. One called the first resurrection and the  other called the second death.Those verses seem to indicate that only  those of the first resurrection heard Christ. It also says blessed and holy are those who hath part in the first resurrection and further states, "On such the second death has no power."  I believe Paul clears this up in 1 Corinthians 15.  Also look at verse 11 of Revelation 20 to the end of the chapter. I do not see of the second death called but rather given up from the sea, death and hell, standing at the Great white throne judgment, and ultimately cast into the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15: 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.1 2  3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.3  9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 
 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 
 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.4  32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.5  33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 
 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 
 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?6  56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 
 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. 

     This whole chapter is about, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul is explaining to them that if we believe only that Jesus lived in this life and he didn't rise again, Christians are of all men miserable and that our preaching is in vain. That if Christ didn't rise we are still in our sins. And those that are dead in Christ are perished. This coincides with 1Thessalonians 4 when Paul wrote about those that  are dead in Jesus. Do no sorrow not even as others that have no hope. And even says If we believe that Jesus Died and  rose again that even those who sleep in Jesus, God will bring with him.  Nothing will prevent them that are asleep in Christ from rising.  Why? Because they have the Hope of Jesus Christ's return.  We don't live in jeopardy every hour nor are the dead in Christ perished. It isn't a whisper at all.  That shout with the voice  of the archangel and the Trump of God falls on deaf ears of the lost.  

 

 

That would be fine is that is what the scripture says,  but it just says, a shout.

I know all that teaching, it is Brethren teaching and I was brought up in the Brethren and my wife was converted as a teenager during a Brethren summer camp.  After I was converted I returned to the Brethren for some years.  My dad, who had long before left the Brethren, as he had quite a number of doubts about the teaching, said to me "Beware of the Brethren teaching on the second coming as it is false."  I ignored him however and I married my wife in our Brethren chapel.  We went to a number of meetings on prophecy, some in our own chapel and some in London. We accepted their teaching until one evening we went to a meeting where the subject was one of Daniel's prophecies. I can't remember which one.  My wife said "He said this would happen and then this and so on, I expected to see it all written out as he said, but it just isn't there."  I began to study further and then remembered my father's words.  "Beware of Brethren teaching on the second coming , as it is false."  I studied further and came to the same conclusion.  I then studied the history of the teaching and that confirmed my conclusions.

A few months ago, my sister asked me "Do you know why Dad left the Brethren?"  I answered "No."  She said he drew up a list of questions outlining his doubts and gave it to the elders and asked for a comment.  They handed it back to him some weeks later and said "There will be no comment."  As they could not justify the teaching, he left.  There was a similar response when we had a Brethren preacher at our church.  He preached at a couple of services, both including that teaching, after which I  held my tongue. On the third occasion he preached an Acts 1, and said "In this return, the church will not be here as the angel was speaking to Jews.  I asked him "Where will the church be at this time?"  He said "In heaven."  I had another question.  "If after Jesus comes for the saints, and we will be ever with the Lord" (1Thess 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.) then we must be there.  At which he turned on his heels, shouting "You don't believe the scriptures."  As usual he could not justify his teaching  I still visit his widow who is housebound.  I did write to the elders of our church to the effect "Our rules say that we must not have any preacher who teaches strange doctrines.  and we certainly had strange doctrines preaches last Sunday evening."  I didn't get a reply, but I did get a comment some time later from one, "I agreed with him."  I expect there were at least two others who would agree with him, one was his son and the other is ex-Brethren himself.

I think it is sad the Baptist and Evangelical churches in the US have not only adopted this Brethren teaching, b ut made it a part of their statement of faith.  After all it is only man's interpretation and a fairly recent acquisition from the Brethren

Most, if not all non ecumenical baptists in our county would not agree with the teaching, but I would not agree with them either.

We had a non dispie preacher at our church sometime ago preaching from Revelation and he said of the Great White Throne that "Christians wouldn't be there."  After the service I asked if he believed in the pre-tribulation rapture and he said he didn't.  I said the teaching on that GWT was Brethren teaching and was wrong and gave my reasons why."  He said "I didn't think of that.

God Bless,

David.

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

So Invicta, your whole argument about this subject is that it is brethren teaching and some brethren teachers ignored you, so you don't accept it?????

 

In the first place, it has been shown to you several times that this doctrine was not formulated by the brethren.

Just because a group that teaches false on several subjects has a particular teaching, that is not sufficient reason to reject or accept that doctrine - the standard is God's  Word, not men's acceptance.

So, leave off your false and irrelevant claim of "brethren doctrine" and show by biblical support why it is wrong.

 

By the way, I am no supporter of the Brethren, this is about using association with a particular group as grounds of doctrinal rejection. As others have pointed out, many true doctrines are promoted by clearly false groups - that doesn't make the doctrine itself wrong.

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So Invicta, your whole argument about this subject is that it is brethren teaching and some brethren teachers ignored you, so you don't accept it?????

 

In the first place, it has been shown to you several times that this doctrine was not formulated by the brethren.

Just because a group that teaches false on several subjects has a particular teaching, that is not sufficient reason to reject or accept that doctrine - the standard is God's  Word, not men's acceptance.

So, leave off your false and irrelevant claim of "brethren doctrine" and show by biblical support why it is wrong.

 

By the way, I am no supporter of the Brethren, this is about using association with a particular group as grounds of doctrinal rejection. As others have pointed out, many true doctrines are promoted by clearly false groups - that doesn't make the doctrine itself wrong.

​You are wrong.  No one has shown that the doctrine was not formulated by the Brethren.  They could not because it was.  If yhou bothered to study the history instead of just rehashing others comments you will find that I am right. 

I do not reject the teaching because I have rejected the Brethren, but the other was round. It certainly was not a Baptist teaching before about 1900 when the Brethren took it to the US.

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​You are wrong.  No one has shown that the doctrine was not formulated by the Brethren.  They could not because it was.  If yhou bothered to study the history instead of just rehashing others comments you will find that I am right. 

I do not reject the teaching because I have rejected the Brethren, but the other was round. It certainly was not a Baptist teaching before about 1900 when the Brethren took it to the US.

Well, aside from the fact that you are wrong - it was not formulated by the Brethren - you might try, as I already suggested, to show FROM THE BIBLE that it is wrong.

Arguing from history - as has already been stated - is irrelevant.

Especially when your history is wrong.

We can only assume that since you refuse to address it biblically and constantly fall back your own invented history, that you are unable to show it from scripture.

So we will ignore your claims........

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