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Concerning Daniel 9:24-27


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(Note:  This posting is somewhat lengthy; however, those who generally follow my posts will not find this to be much of a surprise.)

 

Concerning Daniel 9:24-27 –

............

The opening portion of verse 25 reveals that the first sixty-nine of these “seventy weeks” will encompass the time period “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince.”  Thus these first sixty-nine sevens will begin with “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem” after their seventy years of captivity by the hand of the Babylonians (See Ezra & Nehemiah).  Thus also these first sixty-nine sevens will conclude with the coming of “the Messiah the Prince.”  Now, the distance of time between these events are known by historical record to be greater than a period of sixty-nine literal weeks.  Rather, we understand by the historical record that the distance of time between these events encompassed a multitude of years (indeed, 483 years).  Therefore, we are brought to understand that the “seventy sevens” of this context are a reference unto seventy groupings of seven years eachAgreed

 

Now, the report of verse 25 is not presented with a simple designation of threescore (sixty) and nine “weeks” (sevens), but with the dividing of two parts, the first being “seven weeks” (seven sevens) and the second being “threescore and two weeks” (sixty-two sevens).  This seems to indicate that something of significance will also occur at the completion of the first “seven weeks” (or, forty-nine years) of these sixty-nine weeks (sevens).  Even so, the closing line of verse 25 appears to reveal what this “thing” of significance is – “The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”  Agreed

 

Inserted:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
So we have 69 weeks unto Messiah the Prince which takes us to the baptism & Holy Spirit anointing of the Lord Jesus Christ at the beginning of his ministry that will accomplish his saving work detailed in V. 24, which will be completed in the 70 weeks. The 70th week will be the 3 1/2 years of his earthly ministry & a further 3 1/2 years.
 
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

Since verse 25 has recorded the beginning and the ending for the first sixty-nine “weeks” of the “seventy weeks,” we would now logically expect verse 26 to report the events of the seventieth and final “week” of these “seventy weeks.”  Indeed, human logic would move us to expect that the seventieth and final “week” of these “seventy weeks” would follow immediately after the first sixty-nine “weeks” are completed (since the number seventy does follow immediately after the number sixty-nine).  However, this seventieth and final “week” of these “seventy weeks” is not actually and specifically mentioned until verse 27.  Rather, verse 26 gives a report concerning events that occur “after” the “threescore and two weeks” (after the first sixty-nine “weeks”) without making any specific reference to the seventieth and final week. 

Agreed, but that does NOT mean subsequent events will be outside the 70th week, only they are AFTER 69 weeks. i.e. During & after the 70th week, as indicated by the details of the prophecy.

 

Messiah was cut off at Calvary in order to accomplish his saving work of v. 24. As a consequence of that, the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary & war will ensue. 

 

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Who is "he" who shall confirm the covenant with many for one week? Notice THE covenant.    

 

What then are these events that occur after the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years), without any specific indication that they fall in the seventieth and final “week” (7 years)?  Verse 26 appears to give report concerning three things, saying, “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”  Herein the preposition “after” does not indicate that these things occur at the end of the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years), but indicates that these things occur after the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years) are already concluded.  Furthermore, it is worthy of notice that verse 25 did not specifically state that the first sixty-nine “weeks” would conclude with the cutting off of the Messiah the Prince.  Rather, verse 25 simply indicated that the first sixty-nine “weeks” would extend “unto the Messiah the Prince” (and thereby conclude), without specifying the activity of the Messiah the Prince to which it was referring.  (Personally, I believe that verse 25 is referring to the beginning of our Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry as initiated by His baptism.) Agreed.

 

So then, what are the three things which verse 26 indicates occur after the conclusion of the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years)? 

 

1.  The Messiah will be cut off in death, not for His own sake, but for the sake of others.  According to the New Testament Scriptures, this would be a prophetically reference unto the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the cross. 

Agreed. Half way through the 70th week. 

 

2.  “The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city [that is – Daniel’s holy city, Jersusalem, as per the contextual statement with which verse 24 began] and the sanctuary [that is – the temple in Jerusalem].”  Now, in this statement there are two elements of information that are worthy of notice in relation to the context.  The first of these elements of information is that there is “a prince that shall come” unto the Israelites and unto the city of Jerusalem who is not referenced as their Messiah.  The second of these elements of information is that this “prince that shall come” is not the one himself who comes against Jerusalem in the event of verse 26 to destroy the city and the sanctuary (temple) therein.  Rather, it is the people of which he will be a part that come against Jerusalem in the event of verse 26 to destroy the city and the sanctuary (temple) therein.

Agreed, though I'm not sure how much significance we should read into "the people." Could refer to the Emperor sending his army. 

 

3.  “The end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.”  This statement appears to indicate that the destroying of the city Jerusalem and of the temple in Jerusalem will end with utter desolation upon the Israelites, and that the Israelites and the city of Jerusalem will continue to suffer ongoing desolations thereafter.

Sounds like AD 70, but note, the desolations are only determined  unto the end of the warnot ongoing.

 

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

Finally, with verse 27 we come to the concluding verse of this prophetic utterance and to the specific reference unto the seventieth and final “week” (7 years) of these “seventy weeks.”  The opening line of this verse indicates that some “he” will “confirm” some “covenant with many” (apparently among the Israelites, since that is the focus of this prophetic utterance as per the opening statement of verse 24).  In fact, this “he” will “confirm” this “covenant” with these Israelites for a period of “one week” (that is – a period of one seven, or of seven years).

That is serious misreading/misquoting the Holy Word. Note: "he shall confirm the covenant"  CONFIRM THE COVENANT. We should read this as the way Messiah conducts his saving work. God makes covenants; blesses those who keep them, & curses those who break them. This is NOT "some covenant" but THE COVENANT

Then this verse indicates that in the middle of this seven year period (after 3.5 years), this “he” will “cause the sacrifice and OBlation” of the Israelites “to cease” (apparently ending his seven year “covenant” with the Israelites).  Finally, this verse indicates that this “he” will bring a form of desolation upon the Israelites and the city of Jerusalem, and that this “he” will do so for the purpose of “the overspreading of abominations” upon the Israelites and the city of Jerusalem.  Indeed, this verse indicates that this desolation will continue upon the Israelites and the city of Jerusalem “until the consummation” (until the completion) of the seventieth “week,” and thereby of the “seventy weeks.”

We are talking about the 70th week, & you agree week 69 brought us to Jesus baptism & anointing. Thus Calvary, in the midst of the week causes the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease. The temple veil was rent by God, top to bottom, to show the way was now open without further atoning sacrifice. 

 

The fact that sacrifices continued be offered until the destruction is a indication of God's grace & patience, not a failure of Gabriel's prophecy. 

 

So then, who is this “he” of verse 27?  Grammatically, the closest antecedent to this pronoun in the context is “the prince that shall come” who was mentioned in verse 26.  Furthermore, in the context there is no other reference to “the prince that shall come” of verse 26 in order to explain who he is and why he matters and was mentioned at all in verse 26.  As such, I would contend according to these principles of grammar and context that the “he” of verse 27 is “the prince that shall come” of verse 26.  Now, it is again worthy of note that this “prince” is not referenced in verse 26 as being the Messiah, but that he is in some way related to the people who would destroy the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary (temple) therein in the destroying event that is prophesied in verse 26.

Your reasoning is destroyed by your alteration of Scripture relating to  Note: "he shall confirm the covenant"  CONFIRM THE COVENANT. That refers to Jesus, who confirmed the covenant with those who believed & followed him, and made the New Testament (Covenant) in his blood. Your concordance will tell you there are no "testaments" in the OT, only "covenants." Testament & Covenant are synonymous. Note Luke 1:67-79  To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

 

The 70th week takes to 3 1/2 years after Calvary. The Gospel was proclaimed & many thousands believed & were baptised, as recorded in Acts. So many that after the 5,000 no actual further count is given. Those converted at Pentecost went back to their homes all round the Empire & continued to spread the word.

 

The absolute rejection of Messiah in the martyrdom of Stephen effective ended any covenant between God & the unbelieving Jews. They were declared "uncircumcised." Acts 7:51-53  

 

In conclusion, let us consider the grammatical and contextual gap that is presented in this passage between the conclusion of the sixty-nine “weeks” and the beginning of the seventieth “week.”  Verse 25 clearly speaks concerning the beginning and conclusion of the first sixty-nine “weeks,” and verse 27 clearly speaks concerning the beginning of the seventieth “week.”  However, the events of verse 26 are presented between these other two records.  Indeed, as we have already noted, verse 26 does specifically indicate that the events which it records occur after the sixty-nine “weeks.”  Yet verse 26 makes no specific reference whatsoever to the seventieth “week.”  Furthermore, verse 27 specifically makes reference to the beginning of the seventieth week, and then reports concerning events that will proceed from that point.  Yet verse 27 does not specifically indicate that the events which are recorded in verse 26 are included in that seventieth “week.”  As such, we may understand from the flow of the grammar and the context that there is some form of gap in time between the first sixty-nine “weeks” (483 years) as recorded in verse 25 and the seventieth and final “week” (7 years) as recorded in verse 27, and that the events of verse 26 will fall within that gap in time.

 

There is no "grammatical and contextual gap" but there is a prophecy of events occurring after the 69th week. The 70th week is clearly contiguous with the 69 weeks, as we would expect from the prophecy as a whole, & as is readily understood if we read the Scripture as written. 

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There is no "grammatical and contextual gap" but there is a prophecy of events occurring after the 69th week. The 70th week is clearly contiguous with the 69 weeks, as we would expect from the prophecy as a whole, & as is readily understood if we read the Scripture as written.

 

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  2 Thes 2:3-5, Paul around 50 A.D.
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Ian was asked.

 

What kind of attitude is this?

 

Good of you to do that 'bonking' thing twice though. :D

This is an attitude of Frustration.

Your side pretends we never address things Scripturally.  You claim that we are "inventing" things, adding things, preaching a "false gospel" or regurgitating "Brethren" doctrine.  

When one of us takes the time to lay out our understanding of a controversial passage of Scripture, it is as if your side bends over backwards to completely, utterly, and finally DISMISS our side with absolutely no consideration as to the truthfulness of it.   You have blinders on, and refuse to accept anything that does not fit your pre-determined interpretation.  

The fact is that the only way you can get to your conclusion is to blithely dismiss the literal interpretation of Scripture, and settle for less. 

 

 

And then, a few months from now, one from your side will say that we have never addressed this 70 weeks thing.  

 

We have....you missed it.

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1.  How much you miss in Bible Study!!!  It is an established pattern throughout Scripture that the Lord reveals a Big Idea, then adds more detail to that idea later, and then more later, and then more later.  

Verse 24 gives us the "big picture."  The rest of the passage fills in the details.  

(Actually, this is a common practice in ALL good literature!)

 

2.  Who says that the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ ENDS with a rebellion?  How little you grasp of the futurist interpretation of Scripture.  There is an ATTEMPT at a rebellion, and that ATTEMPT at a rebellion is demolished by GOD ALMIGHTY.  This demolition puts an end to all Satanic attempts to usurp the Kingdom forever.  Thus, the "ruling party" who successfully thwarts this feeble attempt at an overthrow REMAINS IN POWER.   This "ruling party" is NATIONAL Israel, headed by Jesus Christ, thus fulfilling all of the promises made to Israel in the OT in a very REAL and LITERAL sense.  

 

Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

3.  Spiritualizing the Old Testament IS in fact "corrupting" it because it rOBs the OT of a LITERAL FULFILLMENT.  The Atonement of Christ on the Cross for the salvation of the individual sinner, whether Jew or Gentile, is only ONE FACET of the New Testament.  There is still a whole bunch of stuff that has yet to be fulfilled.  The promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and JacOB regarding the land, and physical blessings, do not transfer to the Church.  They are unique to National Israel - the physical line of Abraham.  

The promises we receive through Christ are SPIRITUAL, not physical.  The promises God made to Israel are BOTH.

Your quotation of II Cor. 6:16 is clearly shallow - the covenant promise with Abraham was for LAND.  The covenant promise with Israel was PHYSICAL BLESSINGS in the land God promised Abraham.  The covenant promise God made with David was for an eternal kingdom over PHYSICAL NATIONS ON THIS CURRENT PLANET.  

 

John 1:47 is irrelevant - Jesus was speaking to a JEW.  (Duh!)

In Acts 3, Peter is preaching to JEWS about their crucified KING.  

 

the church does not replace Israel.  The Church has no rightful claim to Israel's promises.  

 

It is Rightly Dividing, not Wrongly Gluing.

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You must deal with this deliberate misquoting of the Word of God:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

 

Scott:

Finally, with verse 27 we come to the concluding verse of this prophetic utterance and to the specific reference unto the seventieth and final “week” (7 years) of these “seventy weeks.”  The opening line of this verse indicates that some “he” will “confirm” some “covenant with many” (apparently among the Israelites, since that is the focus of this prophetic utterance as per the opening statement of verse 24).  In fact, this “he” will “confirm” this “covenant” with these Israelites for a period of “one week” (that is – a period of one seven, or of seven years). 

 

 

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Try as I might I can't get these posts and threads on this subject to come together in a way they make sense and flow and fit together. There are so many jabs here and there, so many side tracks, so many posts within posts, backtracking and such that it makes it difficult of follow any particular line of thought.

 

In another thread DaveW finally provided a good response to a question I had been asking and others hadn't answered. Then, just as soon as that post was made which opened the door for a direct discussion upon that point and away from all the rabbit trails, a mod locked the thread so we couldn't get to the heart of the matter.

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Try as I might I can't get these posts and threads on this subject to come together in a way they make sense and flow and fit together. There are so many jabs here and there, so many side tracks, so many posts within posts, backtracking and such that it makes it difficult of follow any particular line of thought.

 

In another thread DaveW finally provided a good response to a question I had been asking and others hadn't answered. Then, just as soon as that post was made which opened the door for a direct discussion upon that point and away from all the rabbit trails, a mod locked the thread so we couldn't get to the heart of the matter.

 

I posted a detailed reply to DaveW, & transferred to this thread - I think the 3rd post on page 1. 

 

I thought it amounted to a reply to Scott, but I was accused of ignoring his opening post. 

 

I have now posted 2 detailed replies:

one on his points 1-6 relating to Dan. 9:24

second on his remaining points.

 

My posts include quotes, so if you just read mine, you will see both sides.  :coffee:

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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  2 Thes 2:3-5, Paul around 50 A.D.

 

 

 

I cannot see what that has to do with the 70 weeks prophecy.

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I think it's time to close this thread. It's simply the same old/same old...

 

Pastor Markle, if you want to respond, feel free to do so. I'm not sure if you can unlock the thread since you started it but if you can't, pm me or another mod and we'll get you in here to respond. I appreciated your OP and know you aren't always able to respond quickly.

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