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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Way Of Life - Hating The Rapture


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Actually, there are many hints toward a Pre-Trib Rapture.

One such hint is

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

God will not pour out His wrath on His own, but on the wicked. And that wrath will be throughout the Earth.

No need looking for me when that period comes, because I won't be here... you won't find me.

We are not appointed to wrath.
So God will remove us from the Earth prior to pouring out His Wrath.

This is where Dispensational Theory departs from Scripture.

Mat 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Unlike Dispensational "teachers", God can count to two.

The first resurrection preceeds the pouring out of Wrath, and occurs after the Tribulation Saints are Martyred.

Only The Spirit of God can reveal this to you, through His Word.
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Actually, there are many hints toward a Pre-Trib Rapture.

One such hint is

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

God will not pour out His wrath on His own, but on the wicked.  And that wrath will be throughout the Earth.

No need looking for me when that period comes, because I won't be here... you won't find me.

 

This assumes the tribulation is synonomous with the wrath, yet Revelation gives us seven seals, (which I believe, in reading it, seems to be an overview of the entire period, though I admit I could be wrong), then seven trumpets, which seem to be the various events of the tribulation as they occur, then the seven vial of the wrath of God, which would indeed be the outpouring of God's wrath, begun in Rev 14 with the angel from the temple in Heaven harvesting from the ripe vines and casting them into the winepress of God's wrath.

 

So, there is a tribulation time, and there is God's wrath, but while they are connected, they are yet two separate events.

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Sorry I went over your education level here.

1.Concrete nouns
2.Abstract nouns

1.Persons, places, things
2.Ideas

Maybe this simple chart will help.

Rapture cant be a concrete noun, and anyone with an education can mock us for our use of it as one.
We should care to be correct.

The dead in Christ RISE first, so it is a resurrection.

It is also the redemption of our bodies.

It is not a feeling of euphoria.

prophet, my statement about being adult applies specifically to you. My education level is higher than yours, I can guarantee that.  

 

I said use resurrection. It is, because the dead will rise...but the LIVE people are not dead. Yes, it is the redemption of the body: being CAUGHT UP.  Too bad you can't wrap your head around that fact. Now, you are being warned. Stop acting like a spoiled child that has to insult people in order to seem relevant.  

 

As to "arguing doctrine with men..."  This isn't church.  It's a discussion forum. If you don't like it, leave.  Simple enough.

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For what, paying attention in 5th grade English?

But no shame on some woman, for trying to argue doctrine with men?

No wonder our churches are a mess.

 

No...shame on you for your cutting and derogatory remarks that you make toward others. As a man, you choose to be part of this forum...a forum with female moderators. It's your choice. Shame on you...as a man, you should be setting an example of how to act toward others and how to treat a lady. Well, you are setting an example, and it's not very Christ-like.

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prophet, my statement about being adult applies specifically to you. My education level is higher than yours, I can guarantee that.

I said use resurrection. It is, because the dead will rise...but the LIVE people are not dead. Yes, it is the redemption of the body: being CAUGHT UP. Too bad you can't wrap your head around that fact. Now, you are being warned. Stop acting like a spoiled child that has to insult people in order to seem relevant.

As to "arguing doctrine with men..." This isn't church. It's a discussion forum. If you don't like it, leave. Simple enough.

The point isn't to 'appear relevant', no Christian should be motivated by that sort of vanity.

The point is to limit the discussion to the words that can be cross-referenced in the KJV.


I'll admit to being coarse on purpose, to make a point, that the meaning of non-Biblical terms is unimportant and a side-track to the actual study of God's Word.

If it is too much, then I apologize and will tone down my responses.

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Even the KJB doesn't command that discussions must be limited to words that can be cross-referenced in itself.  If man does it, he is being extra-biblical.

 

Points can be made without coarseness...and since the Bible tells us to speak with grace, coarseness actually is in diametric opposition to the KJB.

 

You are the one who made an issue out of "non-Biblical terms"...unnecessarily.

 

Apology accepted.

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You assume we will know the exact day the tribulation begins. I suspect that, if we ARE here, we will wake up as any other day, and not realize the Lord's clock has begun.  Now, if you are correct, and we are raptured out, then yes, those remaining will have a zero hour-they can look at the event and say, "Yes, they all disappeared at exactly 3:12pm Tuesday the 15th of whatever, on such and such a date."  But again, there is NO scriptural evidence that shows Jesus coming and taking His people, except for in Rev 14, where we have an abundantly clear picture of Jesus, after the seventh, (the last) trumpet, IN the clouds, reaping His harvest, immediately prior to the reaping of the clusters of the vine, which are then cast into the winepress of God's wrath.  Show me a clearer view of the catching-up.

 

Interestin' thought.

Many people think America is not mentioned in the scriptures: irregardless, what if people

in America aren't mentioned, because they don't see things happening, atleast not immediately, and just aren't involved with the 'end times'?

I find that possible. Not prOBable, but my imagination could conceive the notion. Lazy America, and maybe blind to what is really going on.

 

A new movie idea!!

 

(on a lighter point, I guess...)

 

:godisgood:

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Interestin' thought.

Many people think America is not mentioned in the scriptures: irregardless, what if people

in America aren't mentioned, because they don't see things happening, atleast not immediately, and just aren't involved with the 'end times'?

I find that possible. Not prOBable, but my imagination could conceive the notion. Lazy America, and maybe blind to what is really going on.

 

A new movie idea!!

 

(on a lighter point, I guess...)

 

:godisgood:

All those constantly trying to fit America into Scripture, and specifically the end-times, seem to cause more harm than good.

 

What about Brazil, India, Japan, Korea (or many others)? These are significant nations, some with ever growing economic, military and cultural influence. Why aren't these "prophecy preachers" trying to fit them into the Revelation?

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All those constantly trying to fit America into Scripture, and specifically the end-times, seem to cause more harm than good.

 

What about Brazil, India, Japan, Korea (or many others)? These are significant nations, some with ever growing economic, military and cultural influence. Why aren't these "prophecy preachers" trying to fit them into the Revelation?

 

Perhaps those from Brazil, India, Japan, Korea (or many others) do think so of their own countries.  

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Perhaps those from Brazil, India, Japan, Korea (or many others) do think so of their own countries.  

There may be some there thinking such, but thus far I've not read of them, and if they are they aren't on the scale of the American "prophecy preachers". Of course I imagine there is much more money to be collected from Americans by trying to tell them how they fit into the end-times than there would be simply saying, "America isn't mentioned in Scripture"; or "watch China, they are on the rise".

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I believe the center of Revelation prophecy is, indeed, Israel-the nations that stand against her are also in some view, though for wrath. And while certainly the entire glOBe will be involved in some manner, and by the end, will all be standing against Israel, either directly or in conviction, there is no need to focus on any of them.

 

That's why I have no issue with believing that believers will endure till just before the wrath-because, even though the prophecy is primarily about Israel, and events surrounding her, there are still other nations present. Just because its not about the church, doesn't mean the church will be gone, or believers will be gone. God's focus is His focus, but it doesn't mean everyone else must be gone for Him to focus on a certain group. For 2000 years the focus has been the churches, but Israelites are still here.  Before that, Israel was the focus, but there were other nations around, too.

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Actually, America is indeed found in the Bible. When we see the phrase "all nations" in Revelation, that would include America.

Revelation 7:9 (KJV)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white rOBes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 12:5 (KJV)
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

Revelation 14:8 (KJV)
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 15:4 (KJV)
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 18:3 (KJV)
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:23 (KJV)
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

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Actually, America is indeed found in the Bible. When we see the phrase "all nations" in Revelation, that would include America.

Revelation 7:9 (KJV)
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white rOBes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 12:5 (KJV)
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

Revelation 14:8 (KJV)
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Revelation 15:4 (KJV)
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for [thou] only [art] holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 18:3 (KJV)
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Revelation 18:23 (KJV)
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

We've already discussed that "all nations" are mentioned, but America itself is not. In fact, it's possible there won't even be an America at that time. We don't know.

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So, you've never seen a parrot?

Or, you possibly did, but couldn't discern it from a crow, cuz you aren't a parrot?

The South called, they want their dufus back. Run along.

 

All fun aside mr prophet. The prOBlem we have here is whether the same Spirit of God would teach born again believers so drastically different in this or any other fundamental doctrine.

You and your couple of buddies on this forum are not being taught for the Holy Spirit at all but another spirit. Whether the spirit of some prideful muttenhead whose books you worship or a worst spirit only the Lord knows.

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All fun aside mr prophet. The prOBlem we have here is whether the same Spirit of God would teach born again believers so drastically different in this or any other fundamental doctrine.

You and your couple of buddies on this forum are not being taught for the Holy Spirit at all but another spirit. Whether the spirit of some prideful muttenhead whose books you worship or a worst spirit only the Lord knows.

 

Wow. They said somewhat the same thing about the Lord. That must mean...?

 

Matthew 10:25  It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

 

Matthew 12:24  But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but byBeelzebub the prince of the devils.

 

Luke 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
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Wow. They said somewhat the same thing about the Lord. That must mean...?

 

Matthew 10:25  It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

 

Matthew 12:24  But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but byBeelzebub the prince of the devils.

 

Luke 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

 

 

No insults intended and I could be directing this to myself and all those who hold to a literal Scripture interpretation and not the imaginative preterist view which could so easily be twisted in any direction.

BUT because I hold to this literal interpretation and at times, accept typology, I DOUBT my way of thinking is influenced by anyone or any spirit apart from the Holy Spirit.

 

The dangers of subjective interpretation is OBvious to most. If one abandons literal interpretation as the predominant method of interpretation then you are open to any imaginings of the mind, preconceived notions of doctrine or other spirits.

 

It takes no brain scientist to know that the worlds religions are all backed and promoted by demonic principalities intended to keep the lost, lost and religious. The same type of influences work within fundamental groups  in my opinion.

 

I know you three amigoes all claim that your subjective views of Scripture are literal but you are wrong. You presume that appling man's twisted records of history to your Scriptural views lend them weight when they actually do the opposite. It causes you to ignore way too much literal interpretation for me and most to accept the ideas.

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Ah, typology, I like that subject. Let's look at typology in the light of the tribulation

 

Noah and the flood:  God's wrath fell on the earth and its inhabitants with the great flood to destroy all life off the earth. But Noah found grace in God's eyes, and He spared him and his family, along with some animals. But He didn't remove Noah completely from the tribulation of that time, instead, he lifted him to ride it out safely atop the judgment.

 

Lot was the one righteous man in Sodom, and we may presume Gomorrah and the other three cities of the plains destroyed by God. But the Lord, in preserving Lot, didn't remove him from all tribulation, but allowed him to escape the wrath of God, and remove to another place. yet he still had to endure loss and still had trouble associated with it.

 

Of course, we see Enoch, who walked with God, and was not, for the Lord took him. This removeal in itself, as a type of the catching away, doesn't seem to be at all related to missing tribulation or trouble, just a removal, so is it typology for the catching up? Same with Elijah being taken up, no trouble related to it, just a removal.  

 

Understand, I am not assuming that you use these particular events as typology for the tribulation and catching up, but these are some that are typically used, and the more I consider them, the less they seem to promise a catching away from the time of tribulation, and more a promise to preserve us and protect us, to cause us to ride above the storms of God's judgments against the wicked, while still present to witness them.

 

But this is how I understand them.  It was mentioned above the idea that God would teach His people differently-of course, like the one who mentioned it, I don't believe He does, I think we too often look at scripture according to our thoughts and yes, whether we want to admit it or not, we have all been influenced in some manner from a teacher or preacher; not that we're parrots or sheep, (though we are sheep, but not in that way), but surely its impossible NOT to be influenced by men we respect for their wisdom and understanding. Not sure what we can do about that-unless we altogether reject any human teachers and preachers, but to do so would be against the word of God, and those types ALWAYS fall into weird error.  

 

Fortunately, I don't see the subject of rapture, (yes, I said it) timing as fundamental, as important to one's faith or salvation, nor even something that, depending on what we believe, would reject the direct teachings of Christ, except for those who believe there will be no catching up. I believe we all agree that it will happen, and it will happen when the Lord deems it is time to happen, and I suspect there is not one of us here that would not be willing to repent and seek forgiveness if they are found wrong on the day of judgment.

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Of course, we see Enoch, who walked with God, and was not, for the Lord took him. This removeal in itself, as a type of the catching away, doesn't seem to be at all related to missing tribulation or trouble, just a removal, so is it typology for the catching up? Same with Elijah being taken up, no trouble related to it, just a removal. 

 

Elijah knew 3 1/2 years of tribulation - drought. Was he kept from it? Or was he supplied miraculously through it?

And it came to pass after a while, that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land. 

Yes & no - his brook dried up.

 

And Baruch - Jeremiah's faithful companion & scribe:

Thus shalt thou say unto him, The LORD saith thus; Behold, that which I have built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up, even this whole land. And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest. 

 

Note also: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.   

Why should those days be shortened if the elect have been raptured before the trib?

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