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David Cloud


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Not in the statement, per se, but basically if Ken Ham never said "Billy Graham is evil" then we shouldn't associate with him.  Huh?

Granted...but folks here have assumed - and stated - that it's to be in one's doctrinal statement.  That's not what was said, though. And, mayhap not "evil" so much as "dangerous"...

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And you are free to have your opinion and to take what inference you will, as are we all.  But simply put, he did not say one must have it in one's doctrinal statement.  One takes a stand for many things that are not written down...

 

True, but....and not to be argumentatitve in spirit here.... really the only way you can prove the ministry has done this is to find it in writing, or in audio....

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Yes, that is true.  But, again, he did not say to include it in a doctrinal statement, and that is what has been put forth here. KHam is quite vocal.  And he writes a whole lot. I get all kinds of stuff from him that is not Creation Museum material.  And it isn't in the form of a doctrinal statement, either.  I just think that claiming that DC said that - or even inferred it - is going in the wrong direction. That's all.  :icon_smile:

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I'm sorry, that would prOBably be my fault...I tend to exaggerate at times to make a point.   So the fact you have to look up any history of "publicly disowning Billy Graham" may as well be in your doctrinal statement.  haha.   But my fault to not be more careful with how I put it forth.

 

I still think it's silly.   Nowhere in the Bible does it say to make sure you say Billy Graham is bad, or you can't be Baptist.  LOL.

 

On a serious note, we have to be careful how adamant we are against people.  If Ken Ham is not actively going around teaching heresy, we should be careful not to steer people away from what could otherwise be very helpful.  Many Christians today are jumping on the Gap Theory and Theistic evolution bandwagons, and Ken Ham is fighting that.  There's really no valid reason to write an article about how churches should avoid this type of ministry, is all I'm saying.

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If ken Ham is evangelical, then of course he wouldn't call out Graham, because he would be in agreement with him.

 

It isn't that David Cloud is holding Ham to IFB standards, but to BIBLE standards. And he is right to do so, because all who claim Christ, who have a following, need to have error made known, so others don't follow them into their error.

 

Kit you said it was the CCM groups that are so dangerous to believers, and I agree wholeheartedly. And it was this, the attendance to a CCM concert, and endorsement of it, that Cloud warned concerning Ham-not, I think, to beat-up Ham, but to warn those who follow Ham not to follow in his ways. Remember, we are not to let our liberties become a stumbling block, and Ken Ham's liberty in attendance to, and speaking at, a CCM concert, could indeed become a stumbling block to those IFB's who follow Ken Ham.

 

I think we also need to discern the difference between an 'attack' and a warning. In reading this article, Cloud first praised Ham and his ministry for the good they do: 

For example, Answers in Genesis and the Institute for Creation Research do a fantastic jOB of defending the literal Genesis account of creation against Darwinian evolution. Ken Ham’s Creation Museum is a masterpiece of biblical apologetics.

 

This isn't an attack, and the article doesn't focus just on Ken Ham and his minstry, but on others as well, all with the new evangelical mindset, and the willingness to often partner with about anyone who is of the same mind in one or two areas.

 

Like promise Keepers, which encapsulate Baptists, mormons, Catholics, pentecostals, et al, all joining under the banner of being better husbands-a worthy goal, but unbiblical joining together.

  Or the old Moral Majority, protestants, Catholics, Mormons, etc, all joining hands to fight for certaingood political goals, but still, unbiblical.

 

I, myself have watched some creation-based videos by 7th-day adventists, and they are very good, but if I show them to my church, it is always with the warning against all the prOBlems the group has doctrinally. And that being said, I would never go to a meeting, even just about creation vs Evolution done by Water Vieth, (the SDA fellow), because it would be an unbiblical joining together.

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Here is how I see it.

Br. Cloud's ministry is to warn people of the danger of compromise by associating themselves with the wrong crowd.  In my opinion, most of the time he is right.  The dangers are great, and there are too many pastors who are either ignorant of the danger they are exposing their congregations to, or too busy trying to work a jOB to stay on top of things.  Thus, Br. Cloud provides an excellent service to all of us, even if he is off base from time to time (WHO ISn't???)

 

Regarding Ken Ham and other Creation Ministries:

Is there really a need for all of this?  I, for one, do not think so.  The pastor of the local assembly has the responsibility to teach "the whole counsel of God."  He should educate himself well enough from sound sources to instruct his people.  I could understand Ken Ham's ministry if it were modeled more closely after the old ICR under Henry Morris.  Their main emphasis was simply to help educate God's people.  John Morris (Henry's son) has simply made it into the same thing as Ken Ham's "ministy" - a money making machine for suckers.  I think about this "museum" and all of this "research" and I begin to think about how much MONEY that costs, and how much BETTER we could use that money to send missionaries around the world to fulfill the great commission - which is preaching the gospel, seeing people saved, and establishing local churches.  These missionaries should have ample training on creation through their local church and Bible training.  So to me, the "need" for a ministry like Ken Ham's should be moot if WE DID OUR JOB.  

 

I have argued with the evolutionists and atheists before.  It does not matter what kind of scientific evidence is put forth.  They will not believe it.  They find ways around it.  The bottom line, they will either receive the TRUTH by FAITH, or they will believe their own LIE by FAITH.  It really is that simple.

 

Bottom line:  Ken Ham's "ministry" is simply NOT NEEDED, and that money could be spent in much better ways.

 

Is Br. Cloud right to "attack" Ken Ham?  I view it more as a warning - if you choose to associate with Ken Ham, and use his materials, just understand where he is coming from, and who he associates with. 

 

In Christ,

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Bottom line:  Ken Ham's "ministry" is simply NOT NEEDED, and that money could be spent in much better ways.

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree....because unfortunately people do NOT understand about Creation.  Christians today have no clue about how to refute the Gap Theory or Theistic evolution.  Yet so much hinges on these beliefs.   

 

Racism began with the theory of evolution.....the entire premise of our world revolves around Creation.   Our origins...races....everything.  Of course, I am a Science teacher by nature (and by degree, but not currently teaching) and my dad is also a self made geologist and does Creation classes at times as well, so to me this is a very important thing.   People are absolutely ignorant these days about the true Creation science.   They don't know how to counter the Ice Age or how to explain the Mammoths.  They don't know how important the Great Flood was in light of science today.

 

It is an entire study that most pastors aren't equipped to teach, or just do not.

 

I think it's necessary, personally.

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If pastors "did their jOB", mayhap KHam's ministry might not be needed. But fact remains that it is a great help to pastors/teachers/parents.  The access KHam and other creation ministries has to scientists, etc., is something that rank and file pastors/teachers/parents do not have.  Yes, it makes money.  But so do many other things. Perhaps the money could be used for missionaries, but given the extent of knowledge that can be gleaned from the work done there, I believe it is money well spent.  It's kinda like those who write curricula for education...if we apply the "it's the pastor's jOB" to teaching creation so KHam isn't necessary, then we have to apply the same standard to curricula. Because, honestly, all of the curriculum publishers make money hand over fist.  Do we say they are unnecessary?  Of course not. They are a help to the local church. Just as creation ministries can be.

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i MUST AGREE THAT WE DO NEED WORKS LIKE hAM'S, AS PASTORS GENERALLY DON'T HAVE THE TIME AND KNOWLEDGE TO GO AND DO THE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH NEEDED TO GET THE INFORMATION SUCH A MINISTRY CAN SUPPLY.

 

Sorry for yelling. Works like Ham's and Hovinds are great and are an excellent resource for pastos and churches, but they should be approached and used as any outside resource is-by always examining everything by scripture, and, yes, by warning if there are prOBlems or inconsistencies.  

 

Bottom line, in this or any work or ministry-we must be careful to avoid being followers and idolizers of men, however good they might be, and just use the information. Many have discounted Hovind's excellent work, because he is in prison-big mistake, because Hovind has done excellent work.  So, we should not discount Ham's work because of what he might do that is wrong or questionable-it doesn't make the truth less truth. Just, in both cases, reminds us that men are fallible. What Hovind did was not wrong, but done in a wrong manner-let's learn from that, but still hold to and teach the truths he teaches and taught. As well, re know that we don't follow Ham to attend and speak at CCM concerts, but we still use and appreciate the work he has done in his field.

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Para-church organisation.

They do good work - I use their videos - but they will go off the rails. All Para-church organisation's do, because there is no church to keep them on track.

This means we should be careful about what we use from them, and be careful about blanket recommendations.

The fantastic thing about videos, dvd's etc, is that the speaker always says the same thing - every single time!
So you can know what is going to be said every time.

Although I use their materials, I would never have them speak at my church - for that reason - you don't know what doctrines may be (even inadvertently) mentioned.

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Para-church organisation.

They do good work - I use their videos - but they will go off the rails. All Para-church organisation's do, because there is no church to keep them on track.

This means we should be careful about what we use from them, and be careful about blanket recommendations.

The fantastic thing about videos, dvd's etc, is that the speaker always says the same thing - every single time!
So you can know what is going to be said every time.

Although I use their materials, I would never have them speak at my church - for that reason - you don't know what doctrines may be (even inadvertently) mentioned.

 

Now THAT is some of the best wisdom, advice, and recommendations I've seen.

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I must be very bad at communicating, or some here are bad at reading, or maybe there are some bad biases, or maybe it is my "tone of voice."  I don't know.

 

If you go back and read my previous post carefully, I said that a Creation Ministry such as the OLD Institute for Creation Research (ICR) when Henry Morris was alive was a good ministry, because it was primarily EDUCATIONAL.  Yes, they sold books, and made money on it.  BUT THAT IS ALL THEY DID.  Duane Gish had many debates across the country with leading evolutionists, and they had a monthly magazine.

 

The difference between the OLD ICR and Ken Ham, as well as the reorganized ICR under John Morris, is that they are MONEY MAKING MACHINES, that provide nice, comfortable careers for "Christians" who don't want to preach on the street, start churches, or go to a foreign mission field.  All funded by Christians who are impressed with a professional presentation.

Henry Morris had a burden and vision to equip the pastor and lay-Christian alike.  I can support that to some degree, understanding that they are a para-church ministry. 

 

Books?  Great.  Helpful.  Videos?  Sure thing.  Spot on.

But Henry Morris was not money hungry like Ken Ham and John Morris are. 

A Creation Museum?  Really?   A little bit over the top, IMO.  Unnecessary.  A huge expense that Christians could be investing more wisely. 

 

Finally, it is not necessary for us to refute every heresy and goofy teaching out there.  All we need to do is present the gospel of Christ. 

 

I Peter 3: 15 "...and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."

 

See?

We don't have to answer all their goofy heresies.  We do need to tell them why we believe what we believe. 

When the atheists and evolutionists come after me, I give them a couple of scientific nuggets to refute their lunacy, but the reality is, they need to hear the GOSPEL, not a refutation of evolution.  Romans 10:17 is appropriate here.  (Of course, I like to hit them with Psalm 14:1)

 

As far as our congregations are concerned, having Creation Seminars from time to time could be profitable and edifying.  I don't have a prOBlem with that at all.  But let's keep the costs down, please, so that we can invest more in missions, tracts, Bibles, and church planting.

Edited by Steve Schwenke
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On November 20, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Ukulelemike said:

Many have discounted Hovind's excellent work, because he is in prison-big mistake, because Hovind has done excellent work.  So, we should not discount Ham's work because of what he might do that is wrong or questionable-it doesn't make the truth less truth. 

Mr. Hovind is an example that illustrates my concerns of compromise quite effectively.  While Mr. Hovind's presentations provide a wealth of information that is reasonably accurate and helpful, he includes enough misinformation. and sometimes dangerous information and advice, that causes me to avoid him and to not recommend him.

 

A phrase that he uses quite often in regard to sifting through valid information is, "Eat the meat and spit out the bones."  This is similar to the "salad-bar" style of gleaning information; "Take what you want and leave the rest."  He has relied on this response heavily in defense of the book, "The Shack," which is a heretical book portraying God as an older black woman named "Elousia" who sometimes calls herself "Papa," the Holy Spirit as an asian woman named "Sarayu" (from the Hindu scriptures; the name of the birthplace of the Hindu God "Rama"), and Jesus is portrayed to be an oriental hipster carpenter.  Mr. Hovind heaps praises upon this book and highly recommends it.  This is especially dangerous these days, as the "gender identity" issue is gaining so much popularity and confusing countless people.

 

Mr. Hovind, since he is presently being divorced by his wife, is teaching that divorce and remarriage is an acceptable option; in his words, "If you want to stay single, fine, but if you want to get remarried, I say, go for it;" Seemingly in contradiction to 1 Corinthians 7:11 and other verses.  In another one of his videos (which I cannot find), he teaches that if you're living a godly, Christian life, people will want to be around you and that if people don't want to be near you or if they hate you, you're doing something wrong; seemingly in contradiction to John 15:18.  He also, joyfully and unapologetically, ridicules and mocks his critics and the still lost and encourages others to do the same; seemingly in contradiction to Matthew 5:44. 

 

I used to be an admirer of Mr. Hovind until I started noticing things like this in his videos.  I cannot remember which story it was, but I discovered that a story that Mr. Hovind claimed was something that he has experienced, was actually a story that Dr. Duane Gish had used many years prior to Hovind's account; many aspects of the story being word-for-word of Dr. Gish's account.  

 

I had never heard of Dr. Gish, but when I started researching him and then Dr. Henry Morris, it became obvious that Mr. Hovind modeled himself after them, especially Dr. Gish; and after reading "The Evolution Handbook," a book which Mr. Hovind recommends, I discovered that the vast majority of the references cited by Mr. Hovind in his presentations, are copied word-for-word from the handbook.  He leads his audiences to believe that he has done the research himself.  What Mr. Hovind brings to the table is his entertaining humor.

 

Mr. Hovind's son, essentially, stole his ministry from him and evicted him from his own home upon his release from prison and, as I stated earlier, Mr. Hovind is going through the process of being divorced by his wife.  He has gathered people around him to help him build something similar to Ken Ham's organization.  He travels, giving seminars/sermons, teaches Bible studies, baptizes people and is building a wedding gazebo in order to officiate weddings.  In my opinion, he is playing either the role of what the Bible calls a bishop or the role of deacon, and, also in my opinion, should be held to the standards contained within 1 Timothy 3. 1 Timothy 3:4-5 should be enough to disqualify him from such a position.  (As thorough as Brother Cloud is, I am surprised that he has not made comment, one way or the other about Mr. Hovind.)

 

I say all of this to demonstrate that, although a ministry may seem to be edifying, we must look deeper to see if it is both biblical and appropriate.  Compromising on biblical adherence or separation issues introduces the "thin edge of the wedge."  I could be in error, and perhaps someone more learned can instruct me, but, other than Matthew 22:21, I am unaware of an area in which the Bible instructs us to compartmentalize anything in out Christian lives.  

 

If a Catholic priest had a fantastic and accurate Creationist teaching on the dangers if pornography, I would not promote him or listen to him because he is Catholic and the rest of his beliefs are life depriving poison.  There is a fantastic documentary on the dangers of television that I will never tell anyone about because it is made by Seventh Day Adventists.

 

Satan does not need obvious and complete heresy and apostasy in order to be successful.  He need only turn our heads.  As we mature in our faith, we develop stronger necks which are more resistant to having our heads turned, but those who are still new in the faith and those who are still lost have not developed that discernment and resistance to such deceptions.

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:21-22) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  {22} Abstain from all appearance of evil."  

 

We must be vigilant to protect our witness to the lost and to keep from minimizing any aspect of Scripture.  I have heard Christians willingly permit or accept sin in their lives in the hope that the "bigger picture" will avail.  They will allow their daughters to wear skin tight "yoga pants" and listen to Lady Gaga (or whomever) and say, "Well at least she's coming to church... you have to pick your battles."  This is why Brother Cloud does what he does.  He knows, first hand from his own youth, that allowing an opening for the thin edge of the wedge will eventually allow the entire wedge to drive itself into and separate us from God.

 

As always, I am still learning, and this is my opinion based upon how I understand Scripture thus far.  I am always eager for proper correction when I am in error.

Edited by Brother Stafford
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