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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Here's A Question


2Tim215

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Here's a question that should pose some interesting debate:D It's got me confused.

 

Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Pentacost - filled with the spirit

 

Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

 

Speaking in foreign tounges.

 

Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

 

Act 2:12  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

 

Amazed

 

But this is where it gets interesting:

 

Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved
.

 

Peter uses the prophecy of Joel to explain that what they are seeing is this prophecy being fullfilled. If I stand by what I believe, that the Bible is the inspired word of God, is without error and that these spirit filled men knew what they were talking about why are they speaking about "last days", "day of the lord" and all the rest?

 

The rest is about Jesus, repentance and salvation. So how could Peter be speaking about signs and wonders and last days to explain a current event? And if we are to trust the bible - then how many last days are there? Because if there is only one, then that prophecy and what Peter says here means that from the moment this happened to our current time is the last days and then all I have been taught by the IFB church is wrong coz then everything in those verses is still applicable to THIS day - prophecy, tounges, visions and dreams - IE miracles, signs and wonders.

 

I don't need the usual arguments here. I have studied long enough and hard enough to be able to rightly divide on my own - but this one has stumped me. I am sure there is a logical explanation, just haven't figured it out yet.

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1John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The following is the opening lines of The NOBle Lesson of the Waldenses written about AD1160

"O Brethren, give ear to a nOBle lesson.

We ought always to watch and pray,
For we see the world nigh to a conclusion.
We ought to strive to do good works,
Seeing that the end of this world approacheth.
There are already a thousand and one hundred years fully accomplished,
Since it was written thus, for we are in the last time.
We ought to covet little, for we are at what remains, viz. at the later end. 

 

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In a sense, the last days run from Pentecost to the second coming. That does not conflict with or contradict with "end times" teaching. There will be "last days"& "end times" before Jesus returns, but the same Gospel.

 

God's last word to mankind was spoken by Jesus, God's Son;

Heb. 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

That is the Gospel proclaimed at Pentecost, & continues to be proclaimed until Jesus returns.

The Old Testament records God's dealings with man from creation to 400 years before the birth of Jesus. (Genesis - Malachi) God was speaking to man, & to the people of Israel, through prophets. Then the New Testament tells the story of Jesus Christ, the long promised Messiah. Hebrews contrasts the word of God by his prophets with the word of his Son Jesus. Notice these last days. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is God's last word to mankind. Not future “last days” or “end times” but the present Gospel days.

 

 

 

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

It only says that they would prophesy, have visions, and dream dreams...it doesn't say how long those things would last, but that would be one of the indicators of the last days according to Joel's prophecy.

 

Again...the prophecy doesn't say that those things will last throughout the last days...they were indicators that they were in the last days.

 

The signs in heaven above and earth beneath certainly haven't happened yet (blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke, the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood), but the prophecy makes a clear distinction that those wonders and signs would only happen before the coming of the "notable day of the Lord".

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For several years now missionaries to Muslim countries have reported upon many instances of Muslims having dreams of Jesus. Oftentimes Muslims will dream they are to contact a missionary and ask them what important message they have for them from Jesus. The testimony of many Muslim converts to Christianity begin with such a dream.

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For several years now missionaries to Muslim countries have reported upon many instances of Muslims having dreams of Jesus. Oftentimes Muslims will dream they are to contact a missionary and ask them what important message they have for them from Jesus. The testimony of many Muslim converts to Christianity begin with such a dream.

 

Anything that is on ones mind and in one's consciousness can create dreams in regards to it. These are not miracles or signs.

 

No hard feelings brother John but for many years before that charismatic women have dreams and visions of all kinds of things related to the Lord but none are factual.

 

When you have a dream like this, report it honestly and maybe you can then believe it. Like I have said before, if you think some get extra help from God to get saved then you are simply a calvinist and are afraid to admit it. There is no extra help above the Word and the Spirit together, this is that which is perfect that has come and all the signs are gone.

 

If they will not believe the Word which is backed by the Spirit, they will not believe dreams or visions or if one has come back from the dead.

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For several years now missionaries to Muslim countries have reported upon many instances of Muslims having dreams of Jesus. Oftentimes Muslims will dream they are to contact a missionary and ask them what important message they have for them from Jesus. The testimony of many Muslim converts to Christianity begin with such a dream.

 

I have read about this also. 

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It only says that they would prophesy, have visions, and dream dreams...it doesn't say how long those things would last, but that would be one of the indicators of the last days according to Joel's prophecy.

 

Again...the prophecy doesn't say that those things will last throughout the last days...they were indicators that they were in the last days.

 

The signs in heaven above and earth beneath certainly haven't happened yet (blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke, the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood), but the prophecy makes a clear distinction that those wonders and signs would only happen before the coming of the "notable day of the Lord".

No it doesen't - Peter (Acts 2:14-21) makes it very clear that the prophecy of Joel was the explanation of what they were currently seeing at pentacost. So where is the "clear" distinction that these would only happen "before the notable day of the lord" if they happened at pentacost and the notable day of the lord hasen't come yet? For almost 2000 yrs now?

It's is logical that those mentioned in vrs 19&20 have not come about but I am talking about vrs 17&18 - there is no clear distinction that these have ended nor come to an end. It simply states that this is what would happen in the last days, of which we are still living in. Or are we? How many last days can there be?

Why do we teach that prophecy etc has come to an end? Or did the apostles not know what they were talking about here and litterally thought they were living in the last days and that the day of the lord would come about in there life time?

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Anything that is on ones mind and in one's consciousness can create dreams in regards to it. These are not miracles or signs.

 

No hard feelings brother John but for many years before that charismatic women have dreams and visions of all kinds of things related to the Lord but none are factual.

 

When you have a dream like this, report it honestly and maybe you can then believe it. Like I have said before, if you think some get extra help from God to get saved then you are simply a calvinist and are afraid to admit it. There is no extra help above the Word and the Spirit together, this is that which is perfect that has come and all the signs are gone.

 

If they will not believe the Word which is backed by the Spirit, they will not believe dreams or visions or if one has come back from the dead.

We all who have come to Christ received "extra help". We were not saved by that help, but by the one and same Gospel.

 

One of the works the Holy Ghost engages in is drawing the lost to Christ. He does this using various means and methods. A person isn't saved by the "miracle" of a dream that leads them to learn of Christ nor is one saved by the "miracle" of the Holy Ghost bringing that particular person into ones life who shares the Gospel with them, or gets them to church, or shares a Bible, Christian book or tract.

 

Whether one chooses to call any of these things miracles or not it doesn't negate the fact the Holy Ghost is at work using that which He knows will best reach individuals to draw them to Christ.

 

The fact is, God is at work in, through and among our lives each and every day whether we take note of it, whether we acknowledge it.

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No it doesen't - Peter (Acts 2:14-21) makes it very clear that the prophecy of Joel was the explanation of what they were currently seeing at pentacost. So where is the "clear" distinction that these would only happen "before the notable day of the lord" if they happened at pentacost and the notable day of the lord hasen't come yet? For almost 2000 yrs now?

It's is logical that those mentioned in vrs 19&20 have not come about but I am talking about vrs 17&18 - there is no clear distinction that these have ended nor come to an end. It simply states that this is what would happen in the last days, of which we are still living in. Or are we? How many last days can there be?

Why do we teach that prophecy etc has come to an end? Or did the apostles not know what they were talking about here and litterally thought they were living in the last days and that the day of the lord would come about in there life time?

 

Perhaps I didn't explain myself well...I was in a hurry when I typed what I did. The clear distinction of what would signify the last days (prophecy, dreams, visions) and the culmination of the last days (the notable day of the Lord) are the wonders in heaven above and signs in earth beneath. Neither of which happened at Pentecost...or afterward...nor yet today. Yet they are included in the same prophecy.

 

Therefore, the notable day of the Lord is the final culmination of the last days. I understood that you were referring to verses 17 and 18, but those aren't the only verses of the prophecy. Since verses 19 and 20 haven't happened yet though they're included in the prophecy, then why do verses 17 and 18 have to be a never-ending part of the prophecy? Verses 19 and 20 have a time restraint, so I don't see why the prophecies, dreams, and visions don't have a time restraint too.

The prophecies, dreams, and visions showed them that they were in the last days. There is nothing in the prophecy denoting that prophecy, dreams, and visions would continue through to the end of the last days...only that they were a sign of the last days. The outpouring of the Spirit (shown by prophecy, dreams, and visions) signaled the beginning of the last days. The notable day of the Lord will signal the end of the last days.

...and yes, we are still in the last days.

 

 


 

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Thanks all. Appreciate the input. Coventer's explanation was more to what I had in the back of my mind. There were many signs and wonders during the period of the crusifiction and ressurection. One has to back scripture with scripture and the one that comes to mind here is:

1Co 1:22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

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Here's a question that should pose some interesting debate:D It's got me confused.

... So how could Peter be speaking about signs and wonders and last days to explain a current event? And if we are to trust the bible - then how many last days are there? Because if there is only one, then that prophecy and what Peter says here means that from the moment this happened to our current time is the last days and then all I have been taught by the IFB church is wrong coz then everything in those verses is still applicable to THIS day - prophecy, tounges, visions and dreams - IE miracles, signs and wonders.

I don't need the usual arguments here. I have studied long enough and hard enough to be able to rightly divide on my own - but this one has stumped me. I am sure there is a logical explanation, just haven't figured it out yet.

​There is the Scriptural answer, which was not yet been given in this thread.  Would you like to consider it prayerfully with me from the Bible?

If you so desire it, let me know, and the texts shall be shared.

A short summation [texts to be included in the post which is to follow if desired]:

Peter, and all at Pentecost, indeed had already entered into "the last days" [plural].  There is also "the last day" [singular], being the final "day", even "the day of the LORD" [more on this in the following post, if desired].  The "last days" [plural] were from that time [days of Christ Jesus on earth] onward, even unto now [present], and yet still further a little while longer until their ending [soon].  That which was poured out at Pentecost, began from Heaven and the anointing of Jesus as the Great High Priest to begin His work there, which went from the Head in Heaven down to the Body on earth, even specifically Jerusalem, Mt. Zion.  The gifts were to continue in the Church until the last.  Though with this said, there shall be further outpourings [latter rains, in 'seasons'], even in greater scope than at the first [early rains, Pentecost and 'seasons' thereafter].  The purpose of that, is so that the final generation, and Great Harvest will be brought to full maturity, that it may be reaped, not only for the righteous, but so also for the wicked.

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The latter rain teaching is an imposed on scripture by the Pentecostal/charismatic fraternity.  James is describing that we should be patient for the coming of the Lord as the farmer waits patiently for the latter rain.

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The latter rain teaching is an imposed on scripture by the Pentecostal/charismatic fraternity.  James is describing that we should be patient for the coming of the Lord as the farmer waits patiently for the latter rain.

​I will disagree with you [in charity, 1 Corinthians 13] on the "latter rain", based upon the texts as given in the KJB throughout, including the context of James [for notice that it is the Husbandman [the Father Himself, that waits; "my Father is the husbandman." [John 15:1]; "until he receive the early and latter rain." [James 5:7], which then follows with our own waiting ["Be ye also patient.." [James 5:8] ] for the rains to come before the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ]], however, that is not presently my main reason for responding to brother 2Tim215, which originally was to answer his question, from the KJB, but first by giving a brief summation.

Yet, to briefly address the matter, "the latter rain" teaching, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, even again, as the "early" at Pentecost does not originate with the Pentecostal, neither Charismatic movements, neither of which I am part of.

Before the "latter rains" can come, first there must be clouds out of the drought, and the clouds only come through the favour of God:

Proverbs 16:15 KJB - In the light of the king's countenance [is] life; and his favour [is] as a cloud of the latter rain.

Psalm 102:13 KJB - Thou shalt arise, [and] have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.

Proverbs 19:12 KJB - The king's wrath [is] as the roaring of a lion; but his favour [is] as dew upon the grass.

Grass are people [2 Kings 19:26; Job 5:25; Psalms 37:2; 92:7; 103:15; Isaiah 40:6; 1 Peter 1:24; Revelation 8:7; 9:4; etc.]

But before that, repentance is needful, even as it was in the days of Elijah:

Jeremiah 3:3 KJB - Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Haggai 1:9 KJV - Ye looked for much, and, lo, [it came] to little; and when ye brought [it] home, I did blow upon it. Why? saith the LORD of hosts. Because of mine house that [is] waste, and ye run every man unto his own house.

Haggai 1:10 KJV - Therefore the heaven over you is stayed from dew, and the earth is stayed [from] her fruit.

Haggai 1:11 KJV - And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon [that] which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands.

Amos 4:7 KJB - And also I have withholden the rain from you, when [there were] yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.

This verse is key to us.

Yet God shall come down upon His people, even the Holy Spirit in fullness and power like never before:

Psalm 72:6 KJB - He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers [that] water the earth.

Hosea 14:5 KJB - I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.

When this happens, his remnant shall be in the midst of the world and many people:

Micah 5:7 KJB - And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

Therefore, there are set times and seasons to ask, but conditions must be met first:

Zechariah 10:1 KJB - Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; [so] the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.

Joel 2:23 KJB - Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first [month].

The rain will come upon all, but many will resist the love of God unto their destruction:

Matthew 7:25 KJB - And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Matthew 7:27 KJB - And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

But the righteous will do as Job, and I recommend reading all of Job 29 with Isaiah 58; Hebrews 4; Isaiah 8 & 56 etc, for something is to be done by God's people...:

Deuteronomy 32:2 KJB - My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Job 29:22 KJB - After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.

Job 29:23 KJB - And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide [as] for the latter rain.

Thus as it was at Pentecost, this time much greater [see also Revelation 5:6; Acts 1-2]:

Psalm 133:1 KJB - [[A Song of degrees of David.]] Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is] for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Psalm 133:2 KJB - [It is] like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, [even] Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

Psalm 133:3 KJB - As the dew of Hermon, [and as the dew] that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, [even] life for evermore.

And so on... there is of course a great deal more, but there is the outline of it.  Can you see it brother?

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However, back to 2Tim215 original question on the matter of "the last days" and "the last day", etc.

"the last days":

Acts 2:17 KJB - And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:18 KJB - And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

[Peter is quoting Joel directly, whom is referencing other things]

Proverbs 1:23 KJB - Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Isaiah 44:3 KJB - For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Joel 2:28 KJB - And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Joel 2:29 KJB - And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Zechariah 12:10 KJB - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

2 Timothy 3:1 KJB - This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

James 5:3 KJB - Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

2 Peter 3:3 KJB - Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

and so on.

"the last day":

John 6:39 KJB - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 KJB - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 KJB - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 KJB - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 KJB - Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 KJB - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The Great Week of God, is 7,000 Years. 6,000 Years and the final 7th 1,000 as the Millennium.  This follows the pattern from Genesis 1 onward and throughout Scripture.  Scripture says:

Psalm 90:4 KJB - For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8 KJB - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Please take careful notice of "with" the Lord.

2 Peter 3:9 KJB - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:10 KJB - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Since Creation, it had passed 4,000 years and Christ Jesus came the First Time.  This means that the first 4 days "with" God had passed, Adam having died [Genesis 2:17] in the first day "with" God, at 930 years old [Genesis 5:5]. Thus in the time of Christ Jesus, the first half of the Great Week "with" God was over [Days 1-4], and the "last days" of that Great Week were already in motion, even from the time of Christ Jesus.  There were only 2 days left "with" God, before the final and "last day" "with" God, being "the day of the LORD", which is the final 1,000 years [Millennium] of Revelation 20, etc.  This is also how the devil knew he had but a "short time" [Revelation 12:12] left...  This is how Paul, Peter and others could make the statements they did in regards the "last days" [2,000 years [days 5 & 6 "with" God], and the final 1,000 years [the 7th Day]] and yet still square with their other statements on the great apostasy that was to take place and of those events in between, before the final events, including Daniel 8:13-14; among the others therein.

This is why John on the Isle of Patmos could write what he did in regard the 7th Day of the LORD they God in Revelation 1:10 [Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; 31:15; Leviticus 23:3; Deuteronomy 5:12-15; Isaiah 56:6; 58:13; 66:23; Matthew 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5; etc].  The week on earth [6 days and the 7th of rest], was but a miniature of the Great Week "with" God.  This pattern is seen throughout the Scriptures:

Just as the week is 6 Days and the 7th of Rest [Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 20:8-11, etc], so too is to be the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heaven, for the Gospel has been preached in the world for 6000 years.

Just as the Land itself was to be worked for 6 years and the 7th year it was to be left alone, so too is to be the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heavenly Canaan - The Promised Land. [Exodus 23:10-11]

Just as the slaves worked for 6 years, they were to be set free in the 7th year, so too is it to be in the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heaven. [Exodus 21:2; Deuteronomy 15:12]

Just as Moses waited at the base of the Mountain 6 days, and on the 7th he was then called up into the Mount, into the clouds, so too shall we be called upwards. [Exodus 24:16; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17]

Just as Joash was hid in the Temple 6 years, while Athaliah [daughter of Jezebel] reigned, and in the 7th year he was crowned King and came out with an army to slay her, so too will Christ Jesus come as KING of Kings and LORD of Lords and He shall reign, and slay the wicked. [2 Kings 1:3; 2 Chronicles 22:12]

Just as Jesus and the three Disciples [Peter, James and John] after 6 days went up the Mountain of Transfiguration, they saw Jesus transfigured before them standing with Moses and Elijah [the Law and the Prophets, the Resurrected Dead and the Translated Living, types of those to be on Earth at the 2nd Advent; Matthew 17, Mark 9; Luke 9; 2 Peter 1:16].

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The events of Acts 2 were a "partial fulfillment" of Joel's prophecy.  The fulfillment of Joel's prophecy has been "interrupted" (postponed), but will be fulfilled during the Tribulation after the Body of Christ is taken from the earth and the Jewish Sect of the Nazarenes returns, preaching the Gospel of the (coming) Kingdom, the return of Messiah.  "Tongues" are not for the Body of Christ.

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​I will disagree with you [in charity, 1 Corinthians 13] on the "latter rain", based upon the texts as given in the KJB throughout, including the context of James [for notice that it is the Husbandman [the Father Himself, that waits; "my Father is the husbandman." [John 15:1]; "until he receive the early and latter rain." [James 5:7], which then follows with our own waiting ["Be ye also patient.." [James 5:8] ] for the rains to come before the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ]], however, that is not presently my main reason for responding to brother 2Tim215, which originally was to answer his question, from the KJB, but first by giving a brief summation.

 

​No.  The context of  [James 5:7], is regarding us patiently waiting for the coming of the Lord.  And the husbandman is an example for us.

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1John 2:18  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

The following is the opening lines of The NOBle Lesson of the Waldenses written about AD1160  <  highly interesting.  Where is that to be found?

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
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      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
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    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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