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Children And The Rapture


Jim_Alaska

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How did you just insert Jesus as being the shepherd in this?  Talk about twisting scripture.  It doesn't even make sense if you make the shepherd, God.  In fact, if you make the shepherd God, you could be insinuating that one could "lose their salvation" (God losing one of his own) and needing to be recovered (saved again) and safe. 

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That's what the freewill Baptist teach. They have a works + grace equals salvation. 

 

Dr. Ken Blue teaches the Jewish Church has to work for their salvation but the Gentile Church has grace. He teaches two Churches. (THE WARNING TO WATCH,  TALENTS FOR INVESTMENT, AND THE JUDGMENT OF GENTILE NATIONS #52)

 

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. In another thread when we were talking about this, AV said its possible two lost people produce unclean children. I thought that was very interesting and I had never considered it before. 

 

Personally, I want Jesus to take all the children of the world in His rapture, so I'm not a good judge on this topic.

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Hosea 13:16 (KJV) 16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Why has God decreed that infants were going to be dashed to pieces? Because of the wickedness of their parents? No. Because God had previously decreed in Deuteronomy that the children would not die for the sins of their fathers. Each would die for their own sins.

In GEnesis 1, we learn an important truth, that kind begets kind. Thus, wicked parents will produce wicked children.

Psalms 58:3 (KJV) 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The infants of Samaria were to be killed. Not because of their parents wickedness, but because of their own.

It is my belief that some are born wicked, some not. Why is this? 1 Corinthians 7:14 may hold that answer.

1 Corinthians 7:14 (KJV) 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

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Sorry, but it is a fact that children do suffer consequences from their parents' sins. And that is what that passage is talking about...as we've discussed at length before.

 

Abortions are not because the child sinned...

That little boy whose parents starved him to death recently had not done wrong...he died because of his parents' actions - sins...

David's son with Bathsheeba did not die because of sin he committed - we are told very clearly that he died due to David's sins...

Parents who are spendthrifts cause their children to live in poverty...

Women who smoke while pregnant oftimes cause deformity in the child...

Through no fault or sin of the child.  Consequence of sin affect people all around us, not just us.  

And on and on.

 

Hosea 13:16 starts out with what will happen to Syria: they will become desolate. Then states why: they rebelled against God.  And then goes into further description, in the same manner so much of scripture uses: they'll fall by their own swords, their children will be killed, their pregnant women ripped up.  Not because of the children's sin.  Because, just as scripture very clearly stated in that verse: "...she hath rebelled against her God..."  

 

Children are not free from the consequences of their parents' sins.  It's actually too bad they aren't.  Millions of children around the world might live better lives if they were.

 

 

The usage of 1 Cor. 7:14 in this thread certainly fits into Covenant Theology beliefs...when it's really teaching not to divorce an unbelieving spouseShame and disgrace comes upon the child of a divorce.  I realize that there are so many divorces today that it doesn't seem to be so, but it actually is very true. Even as an adult who has passed the half century mark, there is still shame deep down over the fact that I come from a broken home...and none of  it was my fault. But the shame is still there.  Sin brings consequences, and children do bear the consequences of their parents' sin...this verse even teaches that. 

 

David said, "As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness." Psalm 17:15

"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord for ever."

 

David OBviously knew more about the afterlife than many Christians give him credit.  He knew where he was going.  And he knew he was going to see his child again.  The child that was the result of heinous sin on his part. 

 

David sought God's mercy for the life of his child, the one he knew was going to die because of his sin (very clearly in scripture we are told it was David's fault: "Howbeit, because by this deed thou has given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also [also being added because it was additional reaping of David's sin] that is born unto thee shall surely die.")

 

David fasted and prayed. And lay upon the earth.  His servants were worried about him. After 7 days, the baby died.  And his servants were concerned about telling him, because of the way David was already grieving.  We all know the story.  How, when David perceived that the child was dead, he rose up, cleaned up, worshiped the Lord, and ate.  His answer to the wondering servants: "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."  

 

Too many people try to say that David was simply talking about the fact that he would one day die as well.  But David knew full well that there is an afterlife.  And he knew he'd see his child again.  Just as he knew he would see God's face.

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It seems like just about anyone who is going to post to this subject has done so, so I guess I’ll stick my neck out and post my thoughts on this subject. I don’t post this lightly.

 

As others in this thread have noted, this is a very hard subject to speak to. We all have a soft spot in our heart for children, especially our own. This has the capacity to be a heart breaking issue for us. But the truth of our God must stand above all else.

 

I see nothing in Scripture that would cause me to think that there is an “age of accountability,” before which a child would go to heaven without being saved as some believe.

 

We have all been born with the sin nature of our father Adam. This is before we have even had opportunity to sin willingly. So, while the idea of an age of accountability (if there were such a thing) might apply to sinning willfully, it could never account for the sin nature we inherited from Adam. Therefore we are condemned at the moment of birth.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

The text shown below my Scripture references reflect my reasoning on the issue we are discussing. While the Scripture cannot be contested, my reasoning may not be without flaw.

 

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

There is no other provision for entrance into the Kingdom of God other than being born again. This would seem to be all inclusive, regardless of age.

 

 

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

We are born into this world with a death sentence already passed. Once a person is condemned his only hope is a pardon from the judge. If there is no pardon, sentence must be carried out. Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: And again, this would seem to be regardless of age.

 

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, then there must be a spiritual re-birth to be able to enter. Even in the Rapture the scripture says that we shall not all die, but we shall all be “changed.” This change is when we receive our glorified bodies. This body is not Raptured in its natural state, but is changed in a moment for the saved.

 

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

The word “must” in ver. 53 is an imperative, it is not optional.

 

Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

How is it possible for our righteousness to exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees when we have none to begin with? For the Scripture says: Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. I take the word “all” to be all inclusive, regardless of age.

 

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

The words “called, justified and glorified” are all in the future tense. In God’s eyes it is a done deal. I’ll speak to this predestination issue, as it relates to young children in a moment.

 

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

I am aware that some may get off track here and think immediately of Calvinistic teaching. But that is not what I want to bring out here. Please understand that this is simply my finite way of trying to reason out God’s purposes.

 

My reasoning here is this: If God, being all knowing is able to chose and predestinate according to His foreknowledge; it would stand to reason to me that He would know who is going to believe. Having said that I would like to propose that perhaps any child that is going to be saved at some time in his life, God knows about and is able to keep him safe until that time. But conversely if that child will never believe in his lifetime, he will be damned at death, so what is the difference in his final outcome other than a longer life?

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I see nothing in Scripture that would cause me to think that there is an “age of accountability,” before which a child would go to heaven without being saved as some believe.

 

First, let me assure you that I'm not arguing with you or trying to prove that I'm right. I posted two verses (one spoken by God himself) that shows an age of accountability. I will re-post them here so no one has to go back up and look for them...

 

Genesis 8:21
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

 

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

While it's true that one can't find a verse that says, "Thus saith the LORD, a child who dies before they reach the age of accountability will go to heaven or be raptured if that happens first", I do see it as a principle given in scripture. Just as there are no verses telling us not to use cocaine, not to commit pedophilia, not to smoke marijuana, not to etc., we know those things are wrong because of the principles laid down in God's word. I see a principle in God's word that shows me that children are innocent and not held accountable until they reach a point in life; in which, they understand between "good and evil". I also believe that this understanding must be in their heart. They KNOW what they are doing is wrong...not because Daddy said so...but because they understand for themselves that it's wrong.

 

Psalms 106:34-38
34   They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them:
35   But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
36   And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
37   Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38   And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

 

Jeremiah 2:34
Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.

 

This verse is in reference to Israel offering their children to false gods...please notice that their "souls" are included here with being innocent.

 

I'm not claiming to be right (though I believe I am), nor am I trying to convince others...but I see a principle in God's word that children are innocent until they understand in their heart that they are committing sin.

 

I also want to apologize for being a liar...I said twice that I was leaving this thread, and yet I've come back again. May the Lord forgive me.

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Please keep giving input...all of you...this topic has me rattled.  I will prOBably take highlights from both sides of the issue and go to my pastor with it, because I am "too close" to the issue to trust my own judgement in this case, having lost 2 small children.

 

Bro. Garry

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While Jeremiah shows that some who were innocent were killed, one has to ask, why were they seen as innocent?  And why others were seen as being wicked as soon as they were estranged from the womb?

As pointed out by another poster, the Bible says "ye must be born again."  "Ye" signifies "all people."  How can one be born again who has no faith in the Son of God?  How can one who has not trusted Christ enter heaven?

Thisleads me back to a conclusion that I made many years ago... that the child in the womb has the ability to hear that which is spoken outside the womb.  John the Baptist certainly heard the voice of Mary when she spoke, and the Bible says because he heard her voice, he leapt.  It also says he was "filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb".

I believe that God somehow speaks to the infant, yes, even in its fetal stage... and that infant has the ability to hear and understand God.   Maybe that which is spoken by parents and those around the parents during the mother's pregnancy have a bearing on whether that child hears.  1 Corinthians 7:14 sure indicates that children of parents who are both unsaved are both considered to be unclean.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

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I have a brother and two sisters who died as babies and it would certainly be nice to know we will meet in heaven one day but the fact I don't know whether that will be the case or not doesn't bother me. I trust God with the outcome.

 

Just as I trust God with the eternal destiny of the pre-Christian Australian Aborigine or Mayans to God's perfect way, so I trust the eternal destiny of aborted babies and babies and children who have died through the centuries by one means or another.

 

God is perfect and He will do what He knows is right whether we can know what that is right now or understand it. Whatever their eternal destiny, God's will be done.

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