Romans 14

[Anon]

This chapter speaks of a form of personal liberty....but on the flip side, it also speaks that if a brother has stricter standards than yourself, you should basically go along with those standards in his presence to avoid offending him.

To me it seems pretty clear.....God is saying that it doesn't matter if we love pork....we just simply won't eat it if a brother is offended by it, even if we think it's okay to do. This avoids church strife.

Today it seems that most people say "it's not my prOBlem if you don't agree with me....I'll do as I please". This could be dress, holidays (Halloween), theaters, music, etc.

I really believe God is telling us to avoid offending others by our liberty.....how far do you think it goes? I'm curious. I think it's pretty plain....but for instance, if a purple shirt on a man offended someone in the church, then God says basically just stop wearing that shirt, right? (Random example). That's pretty foreign in our modern churches.

[2bLikeJesus]

Romans 14:19 (KJV)
¹⁹  Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 

 

Romans 14:21 (KJV)
²¹  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 

 

Seems pretty clear to me.  God's word doesn't stop at food or drink, but encompasses any thing that causes a brother to stumble.  So for me, if someone at church says my tie makes them ill, I will never wear that tie again to church. That would seem a bit extreme, because I am sure my taste in ties would not hinder him from worshiping God or accepting the Lord as saviour, but in the grand scheme of things, is it really much of anything to sacrafice?  And what it may communicate to my brother because of my desire to accomodate him, may help him in his growth and love for God's church and our fellowship.

 

So I am right with you on this one sister.  

 

Bro. Garry

[John81]

Yes, it is very plain, clear and simple. Scripture says we are to consider others above ourselves. The prOBlem is, that's not the American way. Most American Christians, as well as other Western Christians, demand their "right" to do as they please, they cling to individualism and the idea they are free to do as they please no matter what anyone else thinks.

 

Through Paul, Scripture tells us we should be willing to suffer loss rather than to fight for our "rights" in a pagan court of law. How much more should we be willing to forsake eating a pork chop, or not wearing a purple shirt or certain tie to church?

 

We too easily become offended that someone is offended by something we do instead of considering their feelings and conscience above our own as Scripture says.

 

Immodestly dressed women who declare their liberty and "right" to dress as they please and say anyone who has a prOBlem with it just has a prOBlem of their own is actually showcasing their heart to be full of pride and rebellion. The same could be said of the man who wears his hair long; those who cover their bodies in "Christian tattoos", etc.

 

Where is our heart? Are we demanding things our way for the sake of our pride or are we considering the conscious of others and our overall witness?

 

Christ called us to forsake ALL for Him. As much as I love bacon, if a brother/sister were offended by my eating bacon in their presence, I would eat no bacon.

 

Yes Suzy and Bro Garry, this is very clear and simple but pride and rebellion has a strong hold among many.

[prophet1]

There is another side to this.

The offended person is one who stumbles over another's liberty.
They are the "weaker brother".

2 thoughts:

1. Many, in pride, claim to be "offended" at another's liberty, but the truth is they wouldn't stumble over it, not the kind of stumbling in Scripture.
The Law is still a major stumblingstone in Protestantism.
The Jews stumbled over it, not realizing Grace, though they were called out from among the Nations to act out the Gospel in a play on a grand scale.
So also, there are those who stumble today over the Law, and the teachers lay again the stone.

When the teacher is the one claiming that we need to add rules to the Scriptures, because he believes them to be necessary for a walk with God, do we follow him, as the weaker brother, catering to his every whim and fancy?

How many actual weaker babes in Christ are offended away from our churches, because one of these pride-filled "mature Christians" tells them everything that they are "offended" at in their life, and that they won't be "right with God until they do things the way the "mature Christian" tells them they have to do them?

If the elders in our churches are of full age, having understanding, filled with the Spirit of God, and exercising the gifts He has given the Church through them, they would know better than to try to control another's liberty.

Why would we want a weaker brother in any kind of leadership?

I remember a teacher at Hyles Anderson College, when I was a student, named Dr.Carl Laurent ,teaching that blue jeans were sinful.
He was, of course, a city-boy.
Had he ever lived on a farm, or ranch, this folly would never have come up
To this day, many HAC grads teach this same nonsense, but can't even explain why, when discussing it .
They heard one man say why jeans were offensive, and they just accepted it.
Today, they will shun a fellow graduate, a servant of the Lord, for not prohibiting blue jeans.
This is one extreme.

2.We should be conscious of new born babes and their weaknesses.
A man who just got saved from a drunken lifestyle, may not be able to go to eat with us at a restaurant that serves strong drink, though the stronger brother wouldn't be bothered by it one bit.

I taught my kids not to discuss their favorite book, movie, theme park, etc. with new converts, and those yet to be saved.
They may see it as an endorsement of their own idea of what that same entertainment means to them.
For instance, some Goth teen may be fascinated by any movie that includes the death of the main character, like 'Old Yeller'.
They may, from their weaker position, carry on in that false way, believing that their new found Christian aquaintance shares their morbid fascination. They may even be emboldened to try to teach the others around them of their own lusts, feeling now to be a guide into a world that their peers are just viewing from a distance.
Better it would be, to guide new converts to sharing their testimony at every opportunity.
Talk to them of what they've learned of God.

Also , my kids know that if a family doesnt allow their kids to do _____, than they aren't to discuss ______ with them or around them. They are to honor the authority of the other child's parents.

Just some OBservations on the issue of personal liberty.

[GraceSaved]

I agree, we shouldn't do anything that will hurt another Christian spiritually but shouldn't there be a balance?  The strong shouldn't judge the weak but the weak shouldn't judge the strong as well?  I say this because I wonder sometimes if some people use tactics to try to control others to make them conform to their ways.

 

I had a friend that didn't believe we should ingest cow's milk.  It wasn't natural or for humans and gave me a list of Biblical foods to eat.  She also believed women should breast feed until a child didn't want to anymore.  I think she breast fed her son until he was 5.  This is just to name a couple issues she had.  It got to the point I didn't enjoy her company anymore because now it felt like it was all about judging everything I did or didn't do.  We had to part ways.  It was depressing.

[John81]

That's where discernment must come in.

 

The Bible isn't speaking of "offense" as it's so often used today. Some people today seem to be "offended" at just about anything and usually it has to do with ulterior motives.

 

The Bible is speaking to those things that could or would harm the spiritual walk of another.

 

If someone is simply trying to manipulate or control others, there is a whole other heart prOBlem involved there.

 

There's a difference between a believer thinking for some reason drinking cows milk is wrong and it would make them question matters of separation and following biblical principles to see a mature Christian drinking milk; and that of a believer who has decided it's their duty to try and force everyone to agree with their dietary views.

 

While I might avoid drinking milk in the presence of either, and most certainly for the first; in the case of the first it's likely they simply need to be granted patience and kindly and gently shown, perhaps over time, biblical teaching which addresses that point.

 

I've been around Christians who became OBsessed with one thing or another to the point where I had to separate from them. Sometimes that's what's best for both.

 

Typically those who latch onto one or more things they demand other Christians follow are not just immature Christians sincerely misunderstanding or misguided, they are zealots who have determined it's their jOB to force compliance to their pet view. It's the first group the Bible is referring to. The others, very often, fall into the category of false teachers.

[Anon]

Prophet1 has some excellent points! I like the thought about elders vs. younger Christians. Although to me that would be to a point....for instance, an elder could still stumble looking at a woman dressed immodestly.