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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         14
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Way Of Life - Millennial Glory And The Final Rebellion


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

"Shortly" is a relative term.
It indicates that in relation to something else, this will happen sooner. (Not a technical definition.)

Even to say "shortly doesn't mean a long time from now" is troublesome, for "a long time" is itself relative.
Ask a 70 year old how long is "a long time" and you will get a different answer than asking a 7 year old.

The context of the conversation determines it.

and the "shortly" spoken of earlier is nowhere defined as "a year or so".

Strangely though, the thousand years spoken of earlier in this thread appears to be a thousand years long.

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This is what I've been trying to say. We have to look at the context to try and gain clues as to what shortly means in this instance.

 

As to the thousand years, again we need to look at context. Some scholars claim this reference means a literal thousand years while others say it means a long period of time. I can't recall them off hand but those who claim it refers to a long time point to other times in Scripture which are used to mean something other than the specific time they state. It's been a long time since I've read any of that so I apologize for not being more specific.

 

Myself, I have a hard time seeing that Revelation 20 is referring to anything but a literal thousand years; but again, it's been awhile since I studied that specific point.

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"Shortly" is a relative term.
It indicates that in relation to something else, this will happen sooner. (Not a technical definition.)

Even to say "shortly doesn't mean a long time from now" is troublesome, for "a long time" is itself relative.
Ask a 70 year old how long is "a long time" and you will get a different answer than asking a 7 year old.

The context of the conversation determines it.

and the "shortly" spoken of earlier is nowhere defined as "a year or so".

Strangely though, the thousand years spoken of earlier in this thread appears to be a thousand years long.

So, what do you think "shortly" means in the Rev. 1 context?

 

See all refs. to shortly. Do any of these mean 2,000+ years?

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I've re-reread the link in the OP.

 

The BIG prOBlems with a future millennial kingdom include:

 

The teaching that Christ's Kingdom ends with a world wide rebellion. I don't see that in any of the OT Kingdom prophecies:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given : and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor , The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

Who  do you think populates the earth in the supposed future millennial kingdom? As I understand the teaching, Jesus in person; resurrected & changed believers; mortal Jewish survivors from the tribulation (now believers); who else? If 100 y-o is youthful, how long will they live?

 

And who is marrying & giving in marriage, & having children?

 

And do the inhabitants of the millennium die?

 

The whole teaching is not thought out from Scripture, but is an ill-considered system attempting to "literalize" OT prophecy in ways that neither Jesus nor his Apostles considered.

 

As I understand the OP ref, he is teaching from 1 Cor. 15.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept . 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign , till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

He appears to read v. 24-25 as being the millennium, but that doesn't work.

 

When the Lord returns to earth, He will reign first of all in His ‘David’ character and put down all His foes by might and power. Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet, and all the Lord's foes, human, angelic, and demonic, will be summarily dealt with.

The peaceful millennial reign follows:

 

Then the Lord will reign in His ‘Solomon’ character as Prince of Peace. The world will at last know prosperity and order, under a reign of absolute righteousness, such as it has never experienced since the fall of Adam.

No! Jesus is reigning NOW from David's throne, as Peter declared:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried , and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up , whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted , and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear . 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool . 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified , both Lord and Christ.

 

Jesus reigning now, from his heavenly throne, in fulfilment of prophecy. By the Gospel as promised to Abraham, Jesus is blessing all nations on earth by the Gospel, as he saves sinners around the world. We are in a spiritual war, with a certainty of victory, both at death & at Jesus coming for resurrection. As the last enemy is death, the is no place in Scripture for a future dispensation where death occurs, and where Jesus & the millennial saints have to be rescued with fire from heaven - a fire that destroys the earth. Remember:  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.  

 

So, what about Rev. 20, & the 1,000 year binding of Satan? Until Jesus completed his saving work, God's people were essentially the natural descendants of Abraham through Isaac & Israel. There was no salvation for the Gentiles, except in exceptional cases. No message of salvation - Jonah only warned Nineveh of destruction. With Jesus triumph over Satan at the cross, he bound Satan (the strong man) and freed his captives, sending the Gospel to all nations. Satan has no power to keep a redeemed soul in his power. The gates of hell are open for Satan's captives.

 

Towards the end of the Gospel age, Satan's release will bring about a final rebellion that will be ended by Jesus' second coming.

2 Thes. 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure : 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer : 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

 

There is just no concept of an imperfect, temporary millennial Kingdom after the return of Christ for resurrection & judgement in the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles, nor in the Kingdom prophesied by the OT prophets. Whatever OBjections people may have, Satan's binding & release & final doom MUST be before Jesus returns.

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So, what do you think "shortly" means in the Rev. 1 context?

See all refs. to shortly. Do any of these mean 2,000+ years?


You are DELIBERATELY missing the point.
You are the one who provided a definite time for an indefinite description, AND THEN made a definite into an indefinite.
You did this simply because it suits your predetermined theological position.

Then you spout on about not doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

You redefine terms to suit yourself, you missapply descriptions to suit yourself, you make up "real" meanings to suit yourself.

I read the Bible and see where the things prophesied as they are written might have happened in history.
If there is no evidence of these things happening in history, then I come to the conclusion that THEY HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET. I come to this conclusion because I think that God wrote in His Word what He meant to say.

You force prophecy into mere shadows of fulfilment, belittling and minimizing descriptions which include great detail, and you do this to make it fit your ideas.

Read the Word of God for what it says, not for what you want it to say.
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So, what do you think "shortly" means in the Rev. 1 context?

 

See all refs. to shortly. Do any of these mean 2,000+ years?

 

Do you mean shortly for the whole book of Revelation or the 1st 3 chapters?

For 1-3 I can say, yea yea

For 4-22 I say, nay

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>My post above #85 considers serious prOBlems with the concept of a future milllennium as taught in the OP.

 

I would love to see a Scriptural response.

Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

I'm sure the above has been pointed out to you before. Are you submitting this scripture is not a future millennial reign of Jesus Christ? 

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Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

I'm sure the above has been pointed out to you before. Are you submitting this scripture is not a future millennial reign of Jesus Christ? 

Yes, & future to John, but not future to us.

 

What is the first resurrection that protects us from the second death? And where does John see those resurrected souls reigning?

 

Jesus speaks of a resurrection in John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you , The hour is coming , and now is , when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

That resurrection is conversion, and takes place during the present Gospel age - The hour is coming , and now is. That resurrection occurs at salvation, & protects us from the second death & hell. 

 

John sees the souls of the martyrs in heaven:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That isn't the general resurrection - the dead in sin remain dead during the present millennium. (Gospel age) Dead believers are with Jesus in heaven - as John sees them. Note:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

 

The general resurrection awakens all:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming , in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth ; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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Is this where someone asks, "But a thousand years is like a day to the Lord, isn't it?"

 

Well, is it?

 

It seems like most who 'use' this phrase to death, should ask this question now.

So I did.

 

:coffee2:

 

Could this be 'the day of the Lord'?

Actually, I did in an earlier post, because that quote specifically has to do with the coming of the Lord-contextually, this is the proper topic to use it for.

 

Of course, the very idea was poo-poo'd, because even though it is proper in the context and subject, it doesn't fit certain ideas, so it must be rejected.

 

One of the earliest things I learned as an IFB was the importance of context, and yet, time and again I see context ignored and tossed aside to fit personal views. It's very sad, particularly when the context answers questions so well.

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I'm still scratching my head over the idea that "a thousand years" as written in Rev. could turn in to 2000 plus... :puzzled3:


Not to mention that there are heaps of things recorded on the book of Revelation that clearly have not happened yet.
Unless of course you simply ignore what the Bible actually says and pretend it means whatever you want it to.

Then you can come to the same conclusions as Covey here.
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Steve (Hebrews  thread)

 

Ian, your (continued) prOBlem is your inability to read.  The Bible does not end in Rev. 20 (the Millenial Kingdom.)  It ends with Rev. 21-22, the Eternal Kingdom.  The Millenial Kingdom proves that man is incurably wicked, and cannot please God even in a perfect environment, even when Satan is bound with chains of iron.  Man blames the Devil; God removes the Devil from the equation; Man still sins; God is justified in His judgment of every lost sinner (see Rom. 3:4).  Notice, the final judgment of man occurs at the close of the Millenial Kingdom described in Rev. 20, and before the Eternal Kingdom where nothing vile will enter (Rev. 21:27). 

 

It really is not all that difficult if you simply believe what is written - literally.

My continued "prOBlem" is that I believe that Revelation is within the Bible, and to be understand by context, and by comparing related prophetic Scriptures. Many of the visions are quotations or allusions to OT prophecy, & OT prophecy is quoted freely by Jesus & his Apostles & generally given a Gospel age application/interpretation.

 

Persistent rejection of the plain meaning of shortly & at hand in Rev. 1:1-3 leads to a rejection of the message of Jesus to John's readers.

 

Why send an urgent message concerning events 2,000+ years away, & in which (by some interpretations) the readers won't be there anyway, but will be watching from heaven?

Actually, I did in an earlier post, because that quote specifically has to do with the coming of the Lord-contextually, this is the proper topic to use it for.

 

Of course, the very idea was poo-poo'd, because even though it is proper in the context and subject, it doesn't fit certain ideas, so it must be rejected.

 

One of the earliest things I learned as an IFB was the importance of context, and yet, time and again I see context ignored and tossed aside to fit personal views. It's very sad, particularly when the context answers questions so well.

There I agree, Mike. BUT, is the day of the Lord Jesus coming for the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled  (AD 70  Luke 21:22) or his coming for resurrection, judgment, & establishing the NH&NE, or a millennium?  In the OT, the Day of the LORD often refers to a specific judgment, now long past.

 

I'm still scratching my head over the idea that "a thousand years" as written in Rev. could turn in to 2000 plus... :puzzled3:

Peter, writing at about the same time as John, explains that.

 

Not to mention that there are heaps of things recorded on the book of Revelation that clearly have not happened yet.
Unless of course you simply ignore what the Bible actually says and pretend it means whatever you want it to.

Then you can come to the same conclusions as Covey here.

Try reading my posts above & answering from Scripture. And I do not mean repeating "1000 years must be 1000 years" as if that settled all argument. Peter makes it very clear that 1000 years is indefinite. And if you read OT prophecy you will see that the millennial kingdom of the OP is not the glorious promised eternal Messianic kingdom promised by the prophets. 

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And still you persist with applying a precise time line to an indefinite term and applying an indefinite time line to a precise term.

The plain fact is that the thousand years of Revelation can not be wiped aside by referencing Peter. The immediate context and usage must be 1000 years, not an indeterminate time.
And you still refuse to address simple issues like the locusts that sting and have a very precise description.
There has never been seen such a creature seen. That means it MUST BE YET TO COME.
THIS IS ONE AMONG MANY PRECISE EVENTS NOT YET SEEN.

When you give realistic and sensible answers to these very precise descriptions, then maybe people will pay some attention to your time twisting ideas.

I will continue to read Revelation the way it is written thanks.

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Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 
Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 
Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 
 
Let's have a close look at this passage then.
Satan is bound for "a thousand years". 
During this "thousand years", which is called in vs 3 "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way), Satan has no influence on the earth - he cannot for he is bound in the bottomless pit, and is not released until "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way) are expired according to vs 7.
 
If this were the millennial kingdom then Satan would have no influence. But Satan is mentioned as having influence in about 12 verses in the New Testament apart from the Gospels and the book of Revelation. In fact Paul was adamant about it:
1Th_2:18  Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. 
 
Paul says quite specifically, "Satan hindered us". So Satan has been at work in the time of the Epistles.
Rev 2 tells us that Satan has a dwelling place during their time:
Rev_2:13  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 
 
Note here that Antipas "was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth". So John apparently understood that Satan dwelt among men at some stage.
 

The time that Satan is bound is referred to as "the thousand years" not just a thousand years, so the clear implication is that it is a literal one thousand year time period.

 

After this thousand years, when Satan is loosed, he goes about to deceive the nations, and gathers them together to battle, and they surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. This great army raised up by Satan from among men of the nations, is destroyed by fire from heaven, and then the Devil is cast into the lake of fire.

 

Now I think (!) I am right in suggesting that even Covey doesn't think this last battle has happened yet.........

 

But during this thousand years certain things happen:

 

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
 
Now we have an interesting situation here. There are thrones during this thousand years - but the ones who sit on these thrones sit in judgement. Now there have been rulers on thrones throughout history, so it would seem that these are not the average thrones, but special one concerning God's judgement.
Also John saw souls of people who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God. Now the actual passage itself doesn't say when these were beheaded, but we do know that these were they who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, and they had not received his mark. This indicates that they were beheaded during the time that these things were specifically happening.
 
Now the place where we see this mark happening is:
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 
Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 
 
Earlier in that chapter we see that all the world apart from the saints worship this beast. I don't see where in history we have seen this happen, and yet it happens BEFORE the thousand years begins. This must be before the present age in Covey's timeline.
 
So these souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, were beheaded BEFORE the thousand years starts, for that thousand years starts in chapter 20, a full 7 chapters after we see the beast and the mark.
 
 
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
 
So these souls shall reign with Christ a thousand years - there is a slight issue about how they can live for a thousand years, but the bigger question is how they can reign AFTER they were beheaded.
 
This is just a little look at the details of the ACTUAL PASSAGE that speaks specifically of the thousand years.
 
Now matter how you cut it, these things are not happening now, and since it specifically and constantly speaks of "the thousand years" amongst references to "a thousand years", the idea of this "thousand years lasting an indeterminate period of time is laughable.
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Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Let's have a close look at this passage then. Satan is bound for "a thousand years". During this "thousand years", which is called in vs 3 "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way), Satan has no influence on the earth - he cannot for he is bound in the bottomless pit, and is not released until "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way) are expired according to vs 7. If this were the millennial kingdom then Satan would have no influence. But Satan is mentioned as having influence in about 12 verses in the New Testament apart from the Gospels and the book of Revelation. In fact Paul was adamant about it: 1Th_2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. Paul says quite specifically, "Satan hindered us". So Satan has been at work in the time of the Epistles. Rev 2 tells us that Satan has a dwelling place during their time: Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. Note here that Antipas "was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth". So John apparently understood that Satan dwelt among men at some stage. The time that Satan is bound is referred to as "the thousand years" not just a thousand years, so the clear implication is that it is a literal one thousand year time period. After this thousand years, when Satan is loosed, he goes about to deceive the nations, and gathers them together to battle, and they surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. This great army raised up by Satan from among men of the nations, is destroyed by fire from heaven, and then the Devil is cast into the lake of fire. Now I think (!) I am right in suggesting that even Covey doesn't think this last battle has happened yet......... But during this thousand years certain things happen: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Now we have an interesting situation here. There are thrones during this thousand years - but the ones who sit on these thrones sit in judgement. Now there have been rulers on thrones throughout history, so it would seem that these are not the average thrones, but special one concerning God's judgement. Also John saw souls of people who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God. Now the actual passage itself doesn't say when these were beheaded, but we do know that these were they who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, and they had not received his mark. This indicates that they were beheaded during the time that these things were specifically happening. Now the place where we see this mark happening is: Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Earlier in that chapter we see that all the world apart from the saints worship this beast. I don't see where in history we have seen this happen, and yet it happens BEFORE the thousand years begins. This must be before the present age in Covey's timeline. So these souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, were beheaded BEFORE the thousand years starts, for that thousand years starts in chapter 20, a full 7 chapters after we see the beast and the mark. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. So these souls shall reign with Christ a thousand years - there is a slight issue about how they can live for a thousand years, but the bigger question is how they can reign AFTER they were beheaded. This is just a little look at the details of the ACTUAL PASSAGE that speaks specifically of the thousand years. Now matter how you cut it, these things are not happening now, and since it specifically and constantly speaks of "the thousand years" amongst references to "a thousand years", the idea of this "thousand years lasting an indeterminate period of time is laughable.
Just as laughable as the folly you have pointed out, and rightly so, is the folly that suggests that the first resurrection takes place twice. Here in this passage we have 2 clear numerical pronouncements: 1. The thousand years is actually a thousand years, and not a simile for God's patience. 2. The first resurrection takes place before the Mil., and includes those who are martyred during the Trib. So, chronologically, it takes place after the trib., like Jesus told His apostles in Matthew 24. And, numerically, happens once. One resurrection, after the trib Saints are martyred... easy as pie to see. No one else will be rsurrected until after the Mil.: Also a clear statement. Of course, if we call the resurrection of the dead in Christ a "resurrection", than we can cross-reference in study, and understand this. If we call it some made-up extra-biblical term, like "rapture", than we can't, and confusion (which God is not the author of) sets in. Thousand years means thousand years. And God can count to 2 just fine.
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And still you persist with applying a precise time line to an indefinite term and applying an indefinite time line to a precise term.

The plain fact is that the thousand years of Revelation can not be wiped aside by referencing Peter. The immediate context and usage must be 1000 years, not an indeterminate time.
And you still refuse to address simple issues like the locusts that sting and have a very precise description.
There has never been seen such a creature seen. That means it MUST BE YET TO COME.
THIS IS ONE AMONG MANY PRECISE EVENTS NOT YET SEEN.

When you give realistic and sensible answers to these very precise descriptions, then maybe people will pay some attention to your time twisting ideas.

I will continue to read Revelation the way it is written thanks.

These locusts from the abyss are NOT real insects - they are demonic. The horses with tails like serpents, with heads - no the vision is not literal. But it is terrifying.

 

The locusts appear after the fifth trumpet, & the four angels from Rev. 7 take action after the sixth. And the temple is still standing, until destroyed at the  seventh trumpet, after which the heavenly temple is opened.

 

It seems the Jews who rejected the Gospel who persistently rejected the Gospel, who rejected the 40 year warning given in Hebrews,  were given over to Satan, without hope, tormented before the time, even before being cast into hell.

 

The intense hatred of the Jews for Jesus & the Christians was expressed wherever the Gospel was preached. Paul wrote:

1 Thes. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved , to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

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These locusts from the abyss are NOT real insects - they are demonic. The horses with tails like serpents, with heads - no the vision is not literal. But it is terrifying.

 

 

I sort of agree with you.  I believe that the demons here are the disembodied spirits of the (half-breed) nephilim.  However, the "angels that sinned" (from Genesis 6 - which cohabited with human women) are bound in the abyss until the Great Tribulation, where their mutation (locusts) will be unleashed on the earth.

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