Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Way Of Life - Millennial Glory And The Final Rebellion


RSS Robot

Recommended Posts

  • Members

Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

I'm sure the above has been pointed out to you before. Are you submitting this scripture is not a future millennial reign of Jesus Christ? 

Yes, & future to John, but not future to us.

 

What is the first resurrection that protects us from the second death? And where does John see those resurrected souls reigning?

 

Jesus speaks of a resurrection in John 5:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you , He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you , The hour is coming , and now is , when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

That resurrection is conversion, and takes place during the present Gospel age - The hour is coming , and now is. That resurrection occurs at salvation, & protects us from the second death & hell. 

 

John sees the souls of the martyrs in heaven:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That isn't the general resurrection - the dead in sin remain dead during the present millennium. (Gospel age) Dead believers are with Jesus in heaven - as John sees them. Note:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

 

The general resurrection awakens all:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming , in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth ; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 146
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Moderators

Is this where someone asks, "But a thousand years is like a day to the Lord, isn't it?"

 

Well, is it?

 

It seems like most who 'use' this phrase to death, should ask this question now.

So I did.

 

:coffee2:

 

Could this be 'the day of the Lord'?

Actually, I did in an earlier post, because that quote specifically has to do with the coming of the Lord-contextually, this is the proper topic to use it for.

 

Of course, the very idea was poo-poo'd, because even though it is proper in the context and subject, it doesn't fit certain ideas, so it must be rejected.

 

One of the earliest things I learned as an IFB was the importance of context, and yet, time and again I see context ignored and tossed aside to fit personal views. It's very sad, particularly when the context answers questions so well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I'm still scratching my head over the idea that "a thousand years" as written in Rev. could turn in to 2000 plus... :puzzled3:


Not to mention that there are heaps of things recorded on the book of Revelation that clearly have not happened yet.
Unless of course you simply ignore what the Bible actually says and pretend it means whatever you want it to.

Then you can come to the same conclusions as Covey here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Steve (Hebrews  thread)

 

Ian, your (continued) prOBlem is your inability to read.  The Bible does not end in Rev. 20 (the Millenial Kingdom.)  It ends with Rev. 21-22, the Eternal Kingdom.  The Millenial Kingdom proves that man is incurably wicked, and cannot please God even in a perfect environment, even when Satan is bound with chains of iron.  Man blames the Devil; God removes the Devil from the equation; Man still sins; God is justified in His judgment of every lost sinner (see Rom. 3:4).  Notice, the final judgment of man occurs at the close of the Millenial Kingdom described in Rev. 20, and before the Eternal Kingdom where nothing vile will enter (Rev. 21:27). 

 

It really is not all that difficult if you simply believe what is written - literally.

My continued "prOBlem" is that I believe that Revelation is within the Bible, and to be understand by context, and by comparing related prophetic Scriptures. Many of the visions are quotations or allusions to OT prophecy, & OT prophecy is quoted freely by Jesus & his Apostles & generally given a Gospel age application/interpretation.

 

Persistent rejection of the plain meaning of shortly & at hand in Rev. 1:1-3 leads to a rejection of the message of Jesus to John's readers.

 

Why send an urgent message concerning events 2,000+ years away, & in which (by some interpretations) the readers won't be there anyway, but will be watching from heaven?

Actually, I did in an earlier post, because that quote specifically has to do with the coming of the Lord-contextually, this is the proper topic to use it for.

 

Of course, the very idea was poo-poo'd, because even though it is proper in the context and subject, it doesn't fit certain ideas, so it must be rejected.

 

One of the earliest things I learned as an IFB was the importance of context, and yet, time and again I see context ignored and tossed aside to fit personal views. It's very sad, particularly when the context answers questions so well.

There I agree, Mike. BUT, is the day of the Lord Jesus coming for the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled  (AD 70  Luke 21:22) or his coming for resurrection, judgment, & establishing the NH&NE, or a millennium?  In the OT, the Day of the LORD often refers to a specific judgment, now long past.

 

I'm still scratching my head over the idea that "a thousand years" as written in Rev. could turn in to 2000 plus... :puzzled3:

Peter, writing at about the same time as John, explains that.

 

Not to mention that there are heaps of things recorded on the book of Revelation that clearly have not happened yet.
Unless of course you simply ignore what the Bible actually says and pretend it means whatever you want it to.

Then you can come to the same conclusions as Covey here.

Try reading my posts above & answering from Scripture. And I do not mean repeating "1000 years must be 1000 years" as if that settled all argument. Peter makes it very clear that 1000 years is indefinite. And if you read OT prophecy you will see that the millennial kingdom of the OP is not the glorious promised eternal Messianic kingdom promised by the prophets. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

And still you persist with applying a precise time line to an indefinite term and applying an indefinite time line to a precise term.

The plain fact is that the thousand years of Revelation can not be wiped aside by referencing Peter. The immediate context and usage must be 1000 years, not an indeterminate time.
And you still refuse to address simple issues like the locusts that sting and have a very precise description.
There has never been seen such a creature seen. That means it MUST BE YET TO COME.
THIS IS ONE AMONG MANY PRECISE EVENTS NOT YET SEEN.

When you give realistic and sensible answers to these very precise descriptions, then maybe people will pay some attention to your time twisting ideas.

I will continue to read Revelation the way it is written thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 
Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 
Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 
 
Let's have a close look at this passage then.
Satan is bound for "a thousand years". 
During this "thousand years", which is called in vs 3 "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way), Satan has no influence on the earth - he cannot for he is bound in the bottomless pit, and is not released until "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way) are expired according to vs 7.
 
If this were the millennial kingdom then Satan would have no influence. But Satan is mentioned as having influence in about 12 verses in the New Testament apart from the Gospels and the book of Revelation. In fact Paul was adamant about it:
1Th_2:18  Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. 
 
Paul says quite specifically, "Satan hindered us". So Satan has been at work in the time of the Epistles.
Rev 2 tells us that Satan has a dwelling place during their time:
Rev_2:13  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 
 
Note here that Antipas "was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth". So John apparently understood that Satan dwelt among men at some stage.
 

The time that Satan is bound is referred to as "the thousand years" not just a thousand years, so the clear implication is that it is a literal one thousand year time period.

 

After this thousand years, when Satan is loosed, he goes about to deceive the nations, and gathers them together to battle, and they surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. This great army raised up by Satan from among men of the nations, is destroyed by fire from heaven, and then the Devil is cast into the lake of fire.

 

Now I think (!) I am right in suggesting that even Covey doesn't think this last battle has happened yet.........

 

But during this thousand years certain things happen:

 

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
 
Now we have an interesting situation here. There are thrones during this thousand years - but the ones who sit on these thrones sit in judgement. Now there have been rulers on thrones throughout history, so it would seem that these are not the average thrones, but special one concerning God's judgement.
Also John saw souls of people who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God. Now the actual passage itself doesn't say when these were beheaded, but we do know that these were they who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, and they had not received his mark. This indicates that they were beheaded during the time that these things were specifically happening.
 
Now the place where we see this mark happening is:
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 
Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 
 
Earlier in that chapter we see that all the world apart from the saints worship this beast. I don't see where in history we have seen this happen, and yet it happens BEFORE the thousand years begins. This must be before the present age in Covey's timeline.
 
So these souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, were beheaded BEFORE the thousand years starts, for that thousand years starts in chapter 20, a full 7 chapters after we see the beast and the mark.
 
 
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
 
So these souls shall reign with Christ a thousand years - there is a slight issue about how they can live for a thousand years, but the bigger question is how they can reign AFTER they were beheaded.
 
This is just a little look at the details of the ACTUAL PASSAGE that speaks specifically of the thousand years.
 
Now matter how you cut it, these things are not happening now, and since it specifically and constantly speaks of "the thousand years" amongst references to "a thousand years", the idea of this "thousand years lasting an indeterminate period of time is laughable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Let's have a close look at this passage then. Satan is bound for "a thousand years". During this "thousand years", which is called in vs 3 "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way), Satan has no influence on the earth - he cannot for he is bound in the bottomless pit, and is not released until "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way) are expired according to vs 7. If this were the millennial kingdom then Satan would have no influence. But Satan is mentioned as having influence in about 12 verses in the New Testament apart from the Gospels and the book of Revelation. In fact Paul was adamant about it: 1Th_2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. Paul says quite specifically, "Satan hindered us". So Satan has been at work in the time of the Epistles. Rev 2 tells us that Satan has a dwelling place during their time: Rev_2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. Note here that Antipas "was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth". So John apparently understood that Satan dwelt among men at some stage. The time that Satan is bound is referred to as "the thousand years" not just a thousand years, so the clear implication is that it is a literal one thousand year time period. After this thousand years, when Satan is loosed, he goes about to deceive the nations, and gathers them together to battle, and they surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. This great army raised up by Satan from among men of the nations, is destroyed by fire from heaven, and then the Devil is cast into the lake of fire. Now I think (!) I am right in suggesting that even Covey doesn't think this last battle has happened yet......... But during this thousand years certain things happen: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Now we have an interesting situation here. There are thrones during this thousand years - but the ones who sit on these thrones sit in judgement. Now there have been rulers on thrones throughout history, so it would seem that these are not the average thrones, but special one concerning God's judgement. Also John saw souls of people who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God. Now the actual passage itself doesn't say when these were beheaded, but we do know that these were they who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, and they had not received his mark. This indicates that they were beheaded during the time that these things were specifically happening. Now the place where we see this mark happening is: Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Earlier in that chapter we see that all the world apart from the saints worship this beast. I don't see where in history we have seen this happen, and yet it happens BEFORE the thousand years begins. This must be before the present age in Covey's timeline. So these souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, were beheaded BEFORE the thousand years starts, for that thousand years starts in chapter 20, a full 7 chapters after we see the beast and the mark. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. So these souls shall reign with Christ a thousand years - there is a slight issue about how they can live for a thousand years, but the bigger question is how they can reign AFTER they were beheaded. This is just a little look at the details of the ACTUAL PASSAGE that speaks specifically of the thousand years. Now matter how you cut it, these things are not happening now, and since it specifically and constantly speaks of "the thousand years" amongst references to "a thousand years", the idea of this "thousand years lasting an indeterminate period of time is laughable.
Just as laughable as the folly you have pointed out, and rightly so, is the folly that suggests that the first resurrection takes place twice. Here in this passage we have 2 clear numerical pronouncements: 1. The thousand years is actually a thousand years, and not a simile for God's patience. 2. The first resurrection takes place before the Mil., and includes those who are martyred during the Trib. So, chronologically, it takes place after the trib., like Jesus told His apostles in Matthew 24. And, numerically, happens once. One resurrection, after the trib Saints are martyred... easy as pie to see. No one else will be rsurrected until after the Mil.: Also a clear statement. Of course, if we call the resurrection of the dead in Christ a "resurrection", than we can cross-reference in study, and understand this. If we call it some made-up extra-biblical term, like "rapture", than we can't, and confusion (which God is not the author of) sets in. Thousand years means thousand years. And God can count to 2 just fine.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

And still you persist with applying a precise time line to an indefinite term and applying an indefinite time line to a precise term.

The plain fact is that the thousand years of Revelation can not be wiped aside by referencing Peter. The immediate context and usage must be 1000 years, not an indeterminate time.
And you still refuse to address simple issues like the locusts that sting and have a very precise description.
There has never been seen such a creature seen. That means it MUST BE YET TO COME.
THIS IS ONE AMONG MANY PRECISE EVENTS NOT YET SEEN.

When you give realistic and sensible answers to these very precise descriptions, then maybe people will pay some attention to your time twisting ideas.

I will continue to read Revelation the way it is written thanks.

These locusts from the abyss are NOT real insects - they are demonic. The horses with tails like serpents, with heads - no the vision is not literal. But it is terrifying.

 

The locusts appear after the fifth trumpet, & the four angels from Rev. 7 take action after the sixth. And the temple is still standing, until destroyed at the  seventh trumpet, after which the heavenly temple is opened.

 

It seems the Jews who rejected the Gospel who persistently rejected the Gospel, who rejected the 40 year warning given in Hebrews,  were given over to Satan, without hope, tormented before the time, even before being cast into hell.

 

The intense hatred of the Jews for Jesus & the Christians was expressed wherever the Gospel was preached. Paul wrote:

1 Thes. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved , to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

These locusts from the abyss are NOT real insects - they are demonic. The horses with tails like serpents, with heads - no the vision is not literal. But it is terrifying.

 

 

I sort of agree with you.  I believe that the demons here are the disembodied spirits of the (half-breed) nephilim.  However, the "angels that sinned" (from Genesis 6 - which cohabited with human women) are bound in the abyss until the Great Tribulation, where their mutation (locusts) will be unleashed on the earth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I sort of agree with you. I believe that the demons here are the disembodied spirits of the (half-breed) nephilim. However, the "angels that sinned" (from Genesis 6 - which cohabited with human women) are bound in the abyss until the Great Tribulation, where their mutation (locusts) will be unleashed on the earth.

Whenever the Comic book that you two are co-authoring comes out, it'll be a sure seller.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Rev. 20:1-15   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. .....

Let's have a close look at this passage then.
Satan is bound for "a thousand years". 
During this "thousand years", which is called in vs 3 "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way), Satan has no influence on the earth - he cannot for he is bound in the bottomless pit, and is not released until "the thousand years" (a definite statement by the way) are expired according to vs 7.
 
So when was Satan bound, & why? ... that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 
Jesus spoke of binding Satan, & releasing his captives. Mat. 12:22-32 When Greeks wanted to see Jesus, he said:
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12.) 
 
I would expect that binding to take place following Calvary, when the Gospel was sent out to the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. During the next 40 years, the great opposition to the Gospel was centred on Jerusalem with the Jewish leaders (who had been judged uncircumcised by the Holy Spirit through Stephen. With the destruction, the antichrists of this generation were destroyed. Note: 1 Thes. 2:14-16
     
If this were the millennial kingdom then Satan would have no influence.
But premils believe that during the miilennium countless folk who have been born & lived under the gracious & righteous Kingdom of Jesus totally reject him & are just waiting for Satan to lead them into battle against Christ. So many that Jerusalem is beseiged & has to be delivered by fire from heaven.
 
But Satan is mentioned as having influence in about 12 verses in the New Testament apart from the Gospels and the book of Revelation. In fact Paul was adamant about it:
1Th_2:18  Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. 
 
Paul says quite specifically, "Satan hindered us". So Satan has been at work in the time of the Epistles.
Rev 2 tells us that Satan has a dwelling place during their time:
Rev_2:13  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 
 
Note here that Antipas "was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth". So John apparently understood that Satan dwelt among men at some stage.
 
Those references are during the forty years, when Satan's influence is through the Jews. See Acts.
 

The time that Satan is bound is referred to as "the thousand years" not just a thousand years, so the clear implication is that it is a literal one thousand year time period.

 

After this thousand years, when Satan is loosed, he goes about to deceive the nations, and gathers them together to battle, and they surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. This great army raised up by Satan from among men of the nations, is destroyed by fire from heaven, and then the Devil is cast into the lake of fire.

 

Now I think (!) I am right in suggesting that even Covey doesn't think this last battle has happened yet.........

 

That is right. The Gospel has gone through all the world - to all the nations, though there are still many who have not heard. Is that battle against earthly Jerusalem or against Jerusalem above? Wherever God's people are, worshipping in Spirit & in truth. Today we see signs of that battle hotting up. Is Jesus about to return 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thes. 1) or will he graciously send a revival that will allow a further spread of the Gospel. I have no difficulty believing that Satan is loose & active again - in Britain & America, as well as Communist, Pagan & Muslim lands & Israel.    

 

But during this thousand years certain things happen:

 

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 
 
I agree - the souls of the martyrs & other dead believers are presently in heaven, living & reigning with Christ.
 
Now we have an interesting situation here. There are thrones during this thousand years - but the ones who sit on these thrones sit in judgement. Now there have been rulers on thrones throughout history, so it would seem that these are not the average thrones, but special one concerning God's judgement.
Also John saw souls of people who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God. Now the actual passage itself doesn't say when these were beheaded, but we do know that these were they who had not worshipped the beast, nor his image, and they had not received his mark. This indicates that they were beheaded during the time that these things were specifically happening.
 
Now the place where we see this mark happening is:
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 
Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 
 
Earlier in that chapter we see that all the world apart from the saints worship this beast. I don't see where in history we have seen this happen, and yet it happens BEFORE the thousand years begins. This must be before the present age in Covey's timeline.
 
So these souls that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, were beheaded BEFORE the thousand years starts, for that thousand years starts in chapter 20, a full 7 chapters after we see the beast and the mark.
 
At the same time as the Jewish opposition, the Roman Empire, led by the beast Nero, was opposing the worship of Jesus, & until the Jewish revolt in the 60s, was in cahoots with the Jews in persecution.
 
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 
 
So these souls shall reign with Christ a thousand years - there is a slight issue about how they can live for a thousand years, but the bigger question is how they can reign AFTER they were beheaded.
 
We begin our eternal life at conversion, & that life does not end at death. ( John 3:16 John 5:24-29 ) I believe th
 
This is just a little look at the details of the ACTUAL PASSAGE that speaks specifically of the thousand years.
 
Now matter how you cut it, these things are not happening now, and since it specifically and constantly speaks of "the thousand years" amongst references to "a thousand years", the idea of this "thousand years lasting an indeterminate period of time is laughable.

 

I believe that Revelation is within the pages of Scripture, & must be understood by Scripture.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

With wave of the magic wand of "figurative speech" you dismiss what the Bible describes in great detail, and therefore can ignore any prOBlems you might have.
Then you say the binding took place after the death of Christ, and again ignore the facts of Satan working against Paul and others by saying the Jews are Satan.

So you solve your other prOBlems by assigning a totally different meaning to a term that causes you prOBlems.

You can explain anything you like. It is easy if you just ignore the words used, or change the meanings to suit yourself, or use the magic word "figurative" to make it mean something else entirely.

why can you not just read the passage and understand what it says?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

With wave of the magic wand of "figurative speech" you dismiss what the Bible describes in great detail, and therefore can ignore any prOBlems you might have.

 

The prOBlem with a supposed literal interpretation of Revelation is that it is not consistent with Scripture, particulalry the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles. Jesus did not teach a millennium - he did teach a great tribulation on Israel in the days of vengeance before the destruction. There is simply no supporting Scripture for premil teaching. 

 

But no line of interpretation of Revelation is free from prOBlems - we just have different prOBlems, with differrent passages. There is OBviously a lot of iteration in Revelation, & it takes some sorting out. I'm sure I haven't got it perfect, but I am convinced that my line of interpretation is consistent with Scripture.

Then you say the binding took place after the death of Christ, and again ignore the facts of Satan working against Paul and others by saying the Jews are Satan.

 

Let's develop this. We all agree that Jesus defeated Satan at Calvary. However, his activity against Jesus & Christians continued through the Apostolic period, particularly through Jews who rejected their Messiah. Meanwhile, the Gospel was spreading through the nations as Satan's hold on the world was broken. John 12.

 

I cannot claim Satan has been totally inactive since AD 70, but you have the same prOBlem with an ever-increasing godless population of the millennium. People are sinners, they reject the Gospel, & persecute believers. They don't need Satan to deceive them. But look around - is he now released?    

So you solve your other prOBlems by assigning a totally different meaning to a term that causes you prOBlems.

You can explain anything you like. It is easy if you just ignore the words used, or change the meanings to suit yourself, or use the magic word "figurative" to make it mean something else entirely.

 

Figurative has to be guided by Scripture. We cannot impose aritrary interpretations.

 

What happens in Rev. 12? Satan is cast out from heaven down to earth (war in heaven?!?!?) where war intensifies. Periods of 3 1/2 years are described. Are these all the same, or different in different places. The last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week ran from alvary to two dramatic events - the martyrdom of Stephen, when Israel was declared "uncircumcised" and the conversion of Cornelius, when the Gospel was opened to the nations. The final 3 1/2 years concerned the seige of Jerusalem after the Christians fled, when they saw the warning signs Jesus had given them in his Olivet prophecy.   

why can you not just read the passage and understand what it says?

 

Just read the passage & your question is answered. The whole concept of Jesus returning to establish a Kingdom being populated by sinners, & finally needing heavenly intervention is contrary to the Jesus' Kingdom teaching. The Gospel age is being used to save sinners, until the harvest.

 

Mat. 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world ; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil ; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear , let him hear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...