Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Way Of Life - Millennial Glory And The Final Rebellion


RSS Robot

Recommended Posts

  • Members

Rev 20 twice says "a thousand years" and twice says "the thousand years".

Seems pretty definite to me.

Shortly has no such context as you point out.
You pick your version of shortly because it suits you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 146
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Members

Easy to throw that around when it suits, but Rev 20 in particular uses the definite article "The" in reference to the thousand years, twice. Indicative of a definite time period.
"Shortly" has no definite time period inherent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Yet there is a general concept to the term "shortly" which does make it a legitimate question to ponder just what that means.

 

Asserting that some decides their view of "shortly" based upon what they want it to mean could be leveled at anyone, which is why we have to dig deeper in order to try and determine a context with which to help guide our decision.

 

Anyone remember all the hoopla over Scripture saying "this generation shall not pass" being used to declare Christ would return within 40 years of the modern founding of Israel? So many were sure that Christ would return on or before 1988 because a generation is 40 years so that had to mean Christ would return within 40 years of 1948.

 

When Christ didn't return by 1988 these same heralds decided the generation had to be dated from the Israeli capture of Jerusalem rather than the formation of the State, yet 40 years from that time came and went as well. New theories had to be drawn up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

John - I did not assign any time period to it.
He assigned "a year or so" to the word "shortly" and then make "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" indefinite.

It is this inconsistency that indicates an underlying purpose to his definitions.

There is no definition of "shortly" in that passage that indicates specifically "a year or so".

I simply pointed out that "shortly" can have widely varying definitions - he made it specific while making definite terms non - specific.

I have in these past months used "shortly" in reference to something minutes away and also something months away.
It is a relative term.

His definition of it comes from his own bias. End of story - he manipulates the meaning to suit himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

"Shortly" is a relative term.
It indicates that in relation to something else, this will happen sooner. (Not a technical definition.)

Even to say "shortly doesn't mean a long time from now" is troublesome, for "a long time" is itself relative.
Ask a 70 year old how long is "a long time" and you will get a different answer than asking a 7 year old.

The context of the conversation determines it.

and the "shortly" spoken of earlier is nowhere defined as "a year or so".

Strangely though, the thousand years spoken of earlier in this thread appears to be a thousand years long.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

This is what I've been trying to say. We have to look at the context to try and gain clues as to what shortly means in this instance.

 

As to the thousand years, again we need to look at context. Some scholars claim this reference means a literal thousand years while others say it means a long period of time. I can't recall them off hand but those who claim it refers to a long time point to other times in Scripture which are used to mean something other than the specific time they state. It's been a long time since I've read any of that so I apologize for not being more specific.

 

Myself, I have a hard time seeing that Revelation 20 is referring to anything but a literal thousand years; but again, it's been awhile since I studied that specific point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

"Shortly" is a relative term.
It indicates that in relation to something else, this will happen sooner. (Not a technical definition.)

Even to say "shortly doesn't mean a long time from now" is troublesome, for "a long time" is itself relative.
Ask a 70 year old how long is "a long time" and you will get a different answer than asking a 7 year old.

The context of the conversation determines it.

and the "shortly" spoken of earlier is nowhere defined as "a year or so".

Strangely though, the thousand years spoken of earlier in this thread appears to be a thousand years long.

So, what do you think "shortly" means in the Rev. 1 context?

 

See all refs. to shortly. Do any of these mean 2,000+ years?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I've re-reread the link in the OP.

 

The BIG prOBlems with a future millennial kingdom include:

 

The teaching that Christ's Kingdom ends with a world wide rebellion. I don't see that in any of the OT Kingdom prophecies:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given : and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor , The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

Who  do you think populates the earth in the supposed future millennial kingdom? As I understand the teaching, Jesus in person; resurrected & changed believers; mortal Jewish survivors from the tribulation (now believers); who else? If 100 y-o is youthful, how long will they live?

 

And who is marrying & giving in marriage, & having children?

 

And do the inhabitants of the millennium die?

 

The whole teaching is not thought out from Scripture, but is an ill-considered system attempting to "literalize" OT prophecy in ways that neither Jesus nor his Apostles considered.

 

As I understand the OP ref, he is teaching from 1 Cor. 15.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept . 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign , till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

He appears to read v. 24-25 as being the millennium, but that doesn't work.

 

When the Lord returns to earth, He will reign first of all in His ‘David’ character and put down all His foes by might and power. Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet, and all the Lord's foes, human, angelic, and demonic, will be summarily dealt with.

The peaceful millennial reign follows:

 

Then the Lord will reign in His ‘Solomon’ character as Prince of Peace. The world will at last know prosperity and order, under a reign of absolute righteousness, such as it has never experienced since the fall of Adam.

No! Jesus is reigning NOW from David's throne, as Peter declared:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried , and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up , whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted , and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear . 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool . 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified , both Lord and Christ.

 

Jesus reigning now, from his heavenly throne, in fulfilment of prophecy. By the Gospel as promised to Abraham, Jesus is blessing all nations on earth by the Gospel, as he saves sinners around the world. We are in a spiritual war, with a certainty of victory, both at death & at Jesus coming for resurrection. As the last enemy is death, the is no place in Scripture for a future dispensation where death occurs, and where Jesus & the millennial saints have to be rescued with fire from heaven - a fire that destroys the earth. Remember:  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.  

 

So, what about Rev. 20, & the 1,000 year binding of Satan? Until Jesus completed his saving work, God's people were essentially the natural descendants of Abraham through Isaac & Israel. There was no salvation for the Gentiles, except in exceptional cases. No message of salvation - Jonah only warned Nineveh of destruction. With Jesus triumph over Satan at the cross, he bound Satan (the strong man) and freed his captives, sending the Gospel to all nations. Satan has no power to keep a redeemed soul in his power. The gates of hell are open for Satan's captives.

 

Towards the end of the Gospel age, Satan's release will bring about a final rebellion that will be ended by Jesus' second coming.

2 Thes. 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure : 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer : 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

 

There is just no concept of an imperfect, temporary millennial Kingdom after the return of Christ for resurrection & judgement in the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles, nor in the Kingdom prophesied by the OT prophets. Whatever OBjections people may have, Satan's binding & release & final doom MUST be before Jesus returns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So, what do you think "shortly" means in the Rev. 1 context?

See all refs. to shortly. Do any of these mean 2,000+ years?


You are DELIBERATELY missing the point.
You are the one who provided a definite time for an indefinite description, AND THEN made a definite into an indefinite.
You did this simply because it suits your predetermined theological position.

Then you spout on about not doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

You redefine terms to suit yourself, you missapply descriptions to suit yourself, you make up "real" meanings to suit yourself.

I read the Bible and see where the things prophesied as they are written might have happened in history.
If there is no evidence of these things happening in history, then I come to the conclusion that THEY HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET. I come to this conclusion because I think that God wrote in His Word what He meant to say.

You force prophecy into mere shadows of fulfilment, belittling and minimizing descriptions which include great detail, and you do this to make it fit your ideas.

Read the Word of God for what it says, not for what you want it to say.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

>My post above #85 considers serious prOBlems with the concept of a future milllennium as taught in the OP.

 

I would love to see a Scriptural response.

Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

I'm sure the above has been pointed out to you before. Are you submitting this scripture is not a future millennial reign of Jesus Christ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...