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Dispensations


AVBibleBeliever

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 The video is a pretty straight-forward presentation of the normal Baptist position on dispensations.

 

 

No "normal Baptist position on dispensations" includes different means of salvation for different folks.

 

 

I've been a Baptist all of my life, and I've never heard any of these teachings from any church that I've attended...as a member or visitor.

 

I used to consider myself a dispensationalist, because I can see "time-divisions" in the Bible. It wasn't until a few years ago that someone made the assumption that since I was "a dispensationalist", that meant that I believed in different methods of salvation during different dispensations. Well, that was news to me! So, I delved into dispensationalism; therefore, I'm well aware that there are different facets to it. I can't say if the video's teachings are the "normal" Baptist position or not, but I can say that it's not the normal Baptist position where I'm from. It's mainly the hyper-dispensationalists who teach different methods of salvation for different dispensations, but there are disp.s who are like I was...they just see one way of salvation throughout all time, and the dispensations are basically "time periods".

 

I chose to no longer refer to myself as a dispensationalist, because I didn't want anyone to mistakenly have the false assumption that I was a hyper-dispensationalist...but that's my own conviction. I have good friends who are disp's, and they don't believe in the different methods of salvation.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I'm confused...my interest was peaked, so I watched the videos. However, I didn't see or hear the "Teachers to Students" A, B, or C choices that Mountain Christian pointed out. Maybe I missed it; I don't know.

 

Okay, I listened again, and I did hear him say (at the end of the second video)...that "you'd have to be blind not to see it".

 

:scratchchin: I guess I'm blind.   :nuts:

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

That's what they say faith + works = salvation or grace. This occurs in almost all their dispensations except the current one we are living in. This can be seen in some posts here on OB. I'm glad they teach grace today, even if they get the history and future wrong. 

 

I still believe in dispensations but not that definition. To me over and over in the Bible from Adam until everlasting I see grace. Everywhere I look there is God's grace that all mankind isn't consumed. Everyone I see from the past and what is revealed of the future they need Jesus' blood just as much as I do.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I know man, right.

 

What is wrong with those people to believe the Bible on this.

 

After all Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Issac, JacOB all had the OT to study about Jesus' death, burial and Resurrection or did they? No they didn't.

 

What I mean is Moses, Sampson, Rahab and the prophets all had the NT to study of Jesus or did they? No, they didn't.

 

In fact, they had only God who revealed Himself to them personally through many signs, visions, dreams and miracles and they believed God and kept believing God and it was counted to them as righteousness. Make no mistake though folks, it was only the signs, visions, wonders and miracles that kept them believing. There was no indwelling Spirit.

 

It is after all clearly presented in the OT how each of the above were regenerated by the Holy Spirit and sealed until their day of redemption. Look for yourselves, in the OT books of...books of...wait a minute, it ain't in there anywhere. The NT clearly describes that they looked "forward" in hindsight as written chronologically. Those who looked forward to God's promises at the time had no idea of the details, they just believed God when God told them He would provide redemption for all mankind.

 

This overly simplistic view of the Bible is good to keep the lazy, "don't overload me with God's Word" Christians happy and coming I guess. The last thing we want to ever do is make the average Christian think about their faith.

 

This ignorant declaration that folks in the OT were ever born again only feeds the enemies of God.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 The last thing we want to ever do is make the average Christian think about their faith.

 

This ignorant declaration that folks in the OT were ever born again only feeds the enemies of God.

 

 

Or...it could make those who understand that the Bible is clear (even in the Old Testament) that works have never, do never, and will never have absolutely anything whatsoever, in any shape, form, or fashion...to do with salvation...it could make those who understand this, see that the Bible is clear that righteousness comes only by grace through faith. The New Testament even tells us this in Hebrews 11. How those who propose a work's-based salvation in the OT (and the future) can miss this is beyond me. By faith...by faith...by faith!

 

The Old Testament saints weren't regenerated by the Holy Spirit as far as the biblical record shows; however, they believed what God said, and it was accounted unto them for righteousness. Today, we believe what God said (the record of his Son), and it's accounted unto us for righteousness. Those Old Testament saints who believed God were only taken to heaven after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; therefore, their righteousness (and salvation) is directly tied to the gospel.

 

And I'm sorry to disagree with you, but the visions, signs, and wonders didn't make people believe...or keep them believing...

 

Numbers 14:11
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

 

Deuteronomy 1:31-32
31   And in the wilderness, where thou hast seen how that the LORD thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went, until ye came into this place.
32   Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God,

 

Mr. Blue said that the main subject of the Old Testament was about a coming kingdom. No, the Old Testament is about Jesus through and through.

 

Sadly, those who hold to hyper-dispensationalism stumble at the same stumblingstone as Israel...they sadly can't see the simplicity of salvation by grace through faith in the Old Testament, because they can't systematically connect the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to the Old Testament...so they try to make works become an element of salvation. The promised redeemer is there...throughout the Old Testament...but people stumble over it.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I know man, right.

 

What is wrong with those people to believe the Bible on this.

 

After all Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Issac, JacOB all had the OT to study about Jesus' death, burial and Resurrection or did they? No they didn't.

 

What I mean is Moses, Sampson, Rahab and the prophets all had the NT to study of Jesus or did they? No, they didn't.

 

In fact, they had only God who revealed Himself to them personally through many signs, visions, dreams and miracles and they believed God and kept believing God and it was counted to them as righteousness. Make no mistake though folks, it was only the signs, visions, wonders and miracles that kept them believing. There was no indwelling Spirit.

 

It is after all clearly presented in the OT how each of the above were regenerated by the Holy Spirit and sealed until their day of redemption. Look for yourselves, in the OT books of...books of...wait a minute, it ain't in there anywhere. The NT clearly describes that they looked "forward" in hindsight as written chronologically. Those who looked forward to God's promises at the time had no idea of the details, they just believed God when God told them He would provide redemption for all mankind.

 

This overly simplistic view of the Bible is good to keep the lazy, "don't overload me with God's Word" Christians happy and coming I guess. The last thing we want to ever do is make the average Christian think about their faith.

 

This ignorant declaration that folks in the OT were ever born again only feeds the enemies of God.

 

Romans 4:2,3,4,5,6,7,8

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
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Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called

Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:  Ephesians 2:11-12

 

 

It seems that some here would infer that the Apostle Paul is a liar,

and by further implication bring discredit to Paul's Epistles.

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Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called
Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:  Ephesians 2:11-12

 
 
It seems that some here would infer that the Apostle Paul is a liar,
and by further implication bring discredit to Paul's Epistles.

I like the text, but your comment is totally unjustified.

Paul's point is that under the old covenant, there was no Gospel for Gentiles, though a few were recorded as saved. They could be saved by becoming circumcised, which was the prOBlem the Judaizers wrestled with in Acts 15. Not that circumcision ever saved, but it was an expression of faith. Heart circumcision by faith saved. Deuteronomy 30:6
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called

Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:  Ephesians 2:11-12

 

 

It seems that some here would infer that the Apostle Paul is a liar,

and by further implication bring discredit to Paul's Epistles.

 

 

Okay. You win.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

All he is winning at is making much of the Word of God of none effect. The entire Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation is about Christ. If man, at any time, could be saved by works, there would never be a need for Christ. If we are to say some me were and will be saved by their works while we of today are saved by grace, then those saved by works could boast of their own efforts and mock us for our easy salvation.

 

Why is this continued false and dangerous teaching allowed to be put forth here? This isn't a side issue or a topic that has no serious implications. This false teaching undermines the entirety of Scripture and the plan of salvation from before the foundation of the world.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.  

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ["alluded to", not fully revealed, Heb 10:1a "a shadow"]

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe  [i don't see any "works" here at all, no animal sacrifices or circumcision, etc.]

Romans 3:20-22a

 

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit,

and not in the oldness of the letter. [of the Law]  Romans 7:6

 

Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment

of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the OBedience of faith:  Romans 16:25-26

 

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and

strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.  Ephesians 212-13

 

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  Colossians 1:25-26

 

Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles

 

Why do you suppose that those of the Synagogue in Antioch followed Paul for over 100 miles to stone him to death?  hahahahahahahahaha

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Witnessed does not mean "alluded to".
It mean to tell something that you saw.
Your use of that actually says they SAW it, not that it was alluded to.

You particularly point out a definition which is WRONG.

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Witnessed does not mean "alluded to".
It mean to tell something that you saw.
Your use of that actually says they SAW it, not that it was alluded to.

You particularly point out a definition which is WRONG.

If the Gospel of Grace had been fully revealed in prior to Acts 9,

then there would have been no need for Paul's conversion,

and you would imply that Paul was a liar and false apostle.

 

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things,  Heb 10:1a

If I want to use the phrase "alluded to" instead of a phrase/word used by Paul, then that is my privilege.

 

Perhaps a closer study of Paul's Epistles could yield some knowledge...

 

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

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If the Gospel of Grace had been fully revealed in prior to Acts 9,
then there would have been no need for Paul's conversion,
and you would imply that Paul was a liar and false apostle.

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, Heb 10:1a
If I want to use the phrase "alluded to" instead of a phrase/word used by Paul, then that is my privilege.

Perhaps a closer study of Paul's Epistles could yield some knowledge...

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

You gave, as part of your argument, a definition that is incorrect.
It is such an unusual definition of "witnessed" that it can only be assumed that you are deliberately misrepresenting that word for the purposes of your argument.
In these two posts I address no other issue.
And by the way, I do not imply NOR state anything at all about Paul in my comments.
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I am admittedly not very knowledgeable on this subject as far as it even being a point of contention among believers. I do need to say that for myself I guess I have always believed that there were different dispensations. But I would not have called them that on my own, I simply believed that there were different "ages" put forth in the Bible that were I dentified by certain people, time periods or covenants, if you will. I have never had the dubious distinction of ever hearing that these dispensations had anything to do with salvation in any other manner than by Grace through faith. So the controversy put forth here is all new to me.

 

Having seen that there even existed such a controversy I dug out a book on this subject that I have had for many years. It's one of those things that was given to me long ago and never even looked through because I never really had an interest in it.

 

I wanted to mention this to see if anyone else had ever read it and what they thought of it in the light of this present controversy.

The name of the book is: The Work Of Christ Consummated In Seven Dispensations. It was written by J.R. Graves in the year 1883.

 

I have now read through it and find that it shows the work of Christ from Gen. to Rev. and I see no suggestion that there has ever been any other means of salvation other than by the substitutionary death of Christ for our, or any one's sins. It seems to simply chronical the same truths that we find in our Bibles in regard to these different time periods.

 

Once again, if anyone here has ever had opportunity to read it, what were your thoughts on its accuracy.

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You gave, as part of your argument, a definition that is incorrect.
It is such an unusual definition of "witnessed" that it can only be assumed that you are deliberately misrepresenting that word for the purposes of your argument.
In these two posts I address no other issue.
And by the way, I do not imply NOR state anything at all about Paul in my comments.

It wasn't a definition, it was a comment.  Did you even read the entire comment, or are you just ignoring it and selectively "picking"?

Had the Gospel of Grace been clearly "witnessed" in the Old Testament then there would have been no need for the Apostle Paul.

I sense a general discrediting of the Apostle Paul.  Some elevate Peter as the one who "built the Church" and diminish Paul.

 

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