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Pre Tribulation Rapture


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I read an article last night which pointed to the new Hollywood movie version of "Left Behind" and in that article they stated the one passage of Scripture pointed to as proof of a rapture is actually not some separate event but rather occurs during the Second Coming.

 

In that article they said that just as the movie is fiction, the rapture view is a fiction devised by Darby (I know that argument has been bounced back and forth here and there is prOBably nothing new in that department) but the article didn't mention anything with regards to Calvinism.

 

I've read claims that Darby was a Calvinism but I don't know enough about him to know if that is true or if such is relevant.

 

Anyway, the article went on to point out that many churches, pastors and Christians in general (from the context of the article I believe it was primarily speaking of those in America) are more openly speaking against the pre-trib rapture view and declaring what the article called a more traditional, and according to whoever the author was, biblical view of the Second Coming.

 

In any event, I thought it was interesting that I read that article last night and then this morning prophet1 posts along these same lines.

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I could see you stumbling over Hebrews being written to Israel, even though it is OBviously addressed to the scattered Tribes as well.

Romans?

Not one word of Romans is addressed to Israel.

Some of it, addressed to the church in Rome, discusses Israel, but it is always 3rd person.

 

Exactly. The recipients of the letter are plainly stated in the opening verses...

 

Romans 1:7
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I think there was a gross misunderstanding made of why the "brethren" in Romans 7:1 was said to be Jews...

 

Romans 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

 

The thought is, since these "brethren know the law", they are Jews. However, the letter is addressed to a Gentile church. Rome ruled over Israel at the time; therefore, many of the Romans "knew" the law. Paul was simply talking to the Romans who were familiar with the Law, because they would understand what he was talking about. Just because someone "knows the law"...that doesn't make them a Jew.

 

This phrase "know the law" is only used this one time by Paul; however, "under the law" is used 12 times...and always denotes the Jews or those who want to practice Judaism. Paul didn't use "under the law" in Romans 7:1. 

 

Now, it's interesting to note that the only other time that the phrase "know the law(s)" is used in scripture, it is in reference to Gentiles. It's used in Ezra 7:25. Again, this is a Gentile king telling Ezra to set up magistrates and judges to judge other Gentiles by the laws of God.

 

Ezra 7:21-26
  21   And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily,
  22   Unto an hundred talents of silver, and to an hundred measures of wheat, and to an hundred baths of wine, and to an hundred baths of oil, and salt without prescribing how much.
  23   Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?
  24   Also we certify you, that touching any of the priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God, it shall not be lawful to impose toll, tribute, or custom, upon them.
  25   And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.
  26   And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.

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the husband and wife are not one body until after the marriage and consummation thereof it is clear that one in marriage must join. and without causing a furor over words, we all know what joined together means right? 

 

Just in case I will use the same Bible verse to show it and everyone here knows what Paul is talking about. 1 Corinthians 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

 

We are made one with Christ the moment we believe, no marriage and no consummation.  We were joined by the word of God not by any other means.  We are made one in Christ and we were joined with him at the moment of faith.  Eph 4:11-15 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.  The context here is the ministry of the word, and the admonition to not be tossed about the Doctrine of men who wrongly add scriptures, which is, slight of men, and make unbiblical statements as it they are in the word.  We are not told to speak a lie in love but truth.  And you support false doctrines of the Bride in Rev 21 is the body of Christ and is in the New Jerusalem.

 

The Lamb and the Bride of Rev 21 have not been joined yet.  that is what is taking place when you see.  All indications of the Bride in Rev 21 is not the church, the body of Christ, and any who claim such do so from assumption and not with Scriptures.  And if they say the body of Christ is in the New Jerusalem do so with assumption and not scriptures also.

 

And some say I have two admonitions.  Talk about a false teaching?  A teaching that has no Biblical Support clearly stated is not Biblical, it is not sound doctrine, And one must refute it and rebuke those who teach such.  So all of you who have you have receive your two admonitions as hereticks. 

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To present a doctrine that the church goes into the period Known as the day of the Lord, a judgement of man's wickedness and specifically Israel's rejection of God, a pouring out of his wrath in stages over a seven year period and is allowed to suffer and be martyred, smacks of a contradiction of the doctrine of Christ bearing the wrath and judgment of sin for those who believe in his finished work.  God says multiple times were are saved from wrath of God to come through our faith in Christ.  We have escaped the wrath of God known as the day of the Lord, the great tribulation by and through Christ.

 

 Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 
Passed tense I think not it is future tense

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

we are not just saved from hell but from the time when God pours out his wrath on the ungodly and unrighteous in the day of his wrath which is still in the future.  Look at these verses.

 

Rom 2:5-9 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  But unto them that are contentious, and do not OBey the truth, but OBey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;  You will notice that their is not church of God mentioned in this verse but the other two sets of people God is dealing with are there.  1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: further more it speaks directly to the Jews in this chapter because they hold the Law and think the law saves.  For the one who think that because Paul speaks about the Jews only in third person does not mean it is not directed to them for Paul also speaks of the Gentiles in third person and it is directed at them as well.  Beware of making excuses on why not to rightly divide the word of God to see he speaks directly to these groups in third person.

 

1Th 5:2-10 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (is the great tribulation in which John sees and reveals to us in Revelation) so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sOBer.  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  But let us, who are of the day, be sOBer, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. this speaks directly of the wicked shall not escape the appointed wrath of God to come (still future) as a thief in the night,a nd that we are not appointed to that wrath but are saved from it in Jesus Christ.

 

Further verses that show who goes into the period of God's wrath that are alive when it comes

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (beware you who promote the false doctrine of Rev 21 and teach that the church goes through the wrath, that is a form of holding the truth in unrighteousness)

 Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
 Ro 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
 Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
 Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disOBedience. 
the wrath which is still to come
 Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disOBedience: cometh is still future.
 

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I read an article last night which pointed to the new Hollywood movie version of "Left Behind" and in that article they stated the one passage of Scripture pointed to as proof of a rapture is actually not some separate event but rather occurs during the Second Coming.

In that article they said that just as the movie is fiction, the rapture view is a fiction devised by Darby (I know that argument has been bounced back and forth here and there is prOBably nothing new in that department) but the article didn't mention anything with regards to Calvinism.

I've read claims that Darby was a Calvinism but I don't know enough about him to know if that is true or if such is relevant.

Anyway, the article went on to point out that many churches, pastors and Christians in general (from the context of the article I believe it was primarily speaking of those in America) are more openly speaking against the pre-trib rapture view and declaring what the article called a more traditional, and according to whoever the author was, biblical view of the Second Coming.

In any event, I thought it was interesting that I read that article last night and then this morning prophet1 posts along these same lines.

I've had people upset with me for years over this.

It seems so clear, but yet so many stumble.

About Darby, his revitalization of Dispensational doctrine was reactionary to a calvinist upsurge in his church. In defense of the Calvinists, he came up with a timeline allowing for their wrong division of church/Israel to be taught.
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I could see you stumbling over Hebrews being written to Israel, even though it is OBviously addressed to the scattered Tribes as well.

Romans?

Not one word of Romans is addressed to Israel.

Some of it, addressed to the church in Rome, discusses Israel, but it is always 3rd person.

Jews in Rome were expelled from Rome in 49 AD because some of the synagogues were Messianic and some were not, and there arose severe disputes which caused the Emperor to evict all Jews from Rome. 

"The Church" essentially met in synagogues.  "Israel" was still very much a part of God's Plan at this point, until the severance occurred in Acts 28:28, culminating in the destruction of the Temple In 70AD.

You have to check the dates and "timeline".

 

 

The Roman historian Suetonius states that Emperor Claudius expelled all the Jews from Rome in 49 AD “because they were constantly rioting at the instigation of Chrestus.” (ie: Christ)

 

When Christianity was brought to Rome, there were approximately thirteen synagogues in the city; some were open to the teachings of the Christians regarding Jesus Christ (called “Chrestus” by Suetonius), while others fought against those teachings. This tension led to a clash between the synagogues that was so serious that Claudius responded by forcing all 40‑50,000 Jews to leave the city.

 

The Jews expelled by Claudius included not only practitioners of Judaism, but also Jewish Christians. St. Luke tells us that Ss. Aquila and Priscilla went to Corinth (where they met St. Paul) because they were among the Jews expelled by Claudius (Acts 18:2).

 

The Jews were allowed to return to Rome five years later, at the beginning of Emperor Nero’s reign in 54 AD.  http://www.orthodoxyouth.org/romans/print/introexpulsionjews.htm
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(In Revelation 21 John described eternity New Jerusalem before he described the kingdome age New Jerusalem)

 

Revelation 21

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 

 

 

 

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

(Still sinners on earth during kingdom age)

 

 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    (In the kingdom age the New Jerusalem will be over Israel not on the ground) Micah 4

1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of JacOB; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

 

Eternity

(After the Great White Throne Judgment The New Jerusalem will come down to the ground and God will dwell with men)

 

Revelation21:1-8

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

(All sinners cast into lake of fire before eternity begins)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

Mike

It is not me that says the earth will be remade twice it is the Bible. Study the passages I listed.

 

Eric

Can't be. Notice what the Bible says:

 

Rev 21: 1--And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (emphasis mine)

 

If there was a new heaven and earth created after the tribulation, then another new heaven and earth after the kingdom age, then Rev 21:1 could not call it the FIRST heaven and FIRST earth-it should be the second heaven and second earth passing away, to make way for the third.

 

Earth will be renewed, at least in part, during the time of Christ's reign on earth, but it won't be NEW, as in, the old passing away. The old WORLD, perhaps, but not the earth.

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Can't be. Notice what the Bible says:

 

Rev 21: 1--And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (emphasis mine)

 

If there was a new heaven and earth created after the tribulation, then another new heaven and earth after the kingdom age, then Rev 21:1 could not call it the FIRST heaven and FIRST earth-it should be the second heaven and second earth passing away, to make way for the third.

 

Earth will be renewed, at least in part, during the time of Christ's reign on earth, but it won't be NEW, as in, the old passing away. The old WORLD, perhaps, but not the earth.

Psalm 78:67-69

67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:

68But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

 

The creation on the surface of the earth will be remade but the earth is established for ever.

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Right, the earth will be "restored" following the Great Tribulation (Day of the Lord),

but what Peter refers to is the destruction and remaking of the universe "by fire".

 

Psalm 78:67-69

67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:

68But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

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Psalm 78:67-69

67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:

68But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

 

The creation on the surface of the earth will be remade but the earth is established for ever.

 

Like Eden?

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Psalm 78:67-69

67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:

68But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  Rev 21:1

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