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Pre Tribulation Rapture


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Does Scripture say followers of Christ will be known for their snide comments and personal attacks among themselves or by their love for one another?

I did see the snide remark that was about a second admonition.  But your remarks are just as snide filled as his or mine.  you only make yours seem more holy than ours that's all.

 

John81 if we add words to the word of God and claim it to be God's word then we have corrupted, leavened and disOBeyed it.  And that is not being snide but factual.  and if a man will do such he is called a false teacher and an Heretic.  So I am not being snide but truthful.

 

But if you can find a single verse that says the body of Christ is in the new Jerusalem I will close my account here and you will never hear from me again.

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Not completely sure what this has to do with what we just spoke on

 

Yes, the angel John mentions in Rev 21:9 is the same angel that had the plagues, but this is not the same time period. We need to accept the context when the context is clear, and the clear context here begins in vs1 of the chapter:

 

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife..."

 

So the clear context, time-wise, is after the GWT judgment, after heaven and earth have passed away, after the formation of the new heaven and hew earth-John sees the New Jerusalem descending from heaven, is given a general description of the world which is beginning, and the holiness thereof, and then, one of the angels, the one that had, and presumably passed out, the vials of the wrath of God, comes to speak with John, to show him the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 

On a side note, interestingly, he shows John the Holy City, New Jerusalem, and John gives us a detailed description OF the New Jerusalem. Didn't see a bride anywhere. Oh, maybe it IS the Holy City? Because I don't see anything else. "Let me show you the bride, the Lamb's wife", then, bam onto a mountain, "and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God". Where's the bride? Why would the angel say he was going to shoe John the bride, and then immediately show him New Jerusalem? With no mention of the church anywhere? 

 

But that's for another discussion.

Eternity

 

Revelation 21:1-8

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

 

Kingdom age

 

Isaiah 65:17-25

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: (After Tribulation) and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days (Still Death) for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring (Birth) with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

 

Ezekiel 47:1-12

 

The sea will be healed during the kingdom age.

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I did see the snide remark that was about a second admonition.  But your remarks are just as snide filled as his or mine.  you only make yours seem more holy than ours that's all.

 

John81 if we add words to the word of God and claim it to be God's word then we have corrupted, leavened and disOBeyed it.  And that is not being snide but factual.  and if a man will do such he is called a false teacher and an Heretic.  So I am not being snide but truthful.

 

But if you can find a single verse that says the body of Christ is in the new Jerusalem I will close my account here and you will never hear from me again.

IMO the argument about the body, the bride & the new Jerusalem is discussion of a foolish question. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. As here.

 

The are many terms used for God's relationship with his people, Christian believers. These terms are not mutually exclusive, but are instructive of various aspects of our position in Christ. We need a spiritual understanding, rather than an argument.

 

When Paul writes, But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all, is he writing of a physical city in heaven, complete with houses, shops, utilities, temple, etc? I think NOT. We are born-again children of God, citizens of spiritual Jerusalem - the city Abraham lived in hope of.

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

....

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

Don't divide ('cos it's not rightly dividing) bride, body, disciples, Christians, Israel, children, people, elect, redeemed... etc. Every term is an expression of our wonderful relationship with our Saviour God. The "arithmetic" is addition, or even multiplication, NOT division, nor subtraction.

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IMO the argument about the body, the bride & the new Jerusalem is discussion of a foolish question. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. As here.

 

The are many terms used for God's relationship with his people, Christian believers. These terms are not mutually exclusive, but are instructive of various aspects of our position in Christ. We need a spiritual understanding, rather than an argument.

 

When Paul writes, But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all, is he writing of a physical city in heaven, complete with houses, shops, utilities, temple, etc? I think NOT. We are born-again children of God, citizens of spiritual Jerusalem - the city Abraham lived in hope of.

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

....

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

Don't divide ('cos it's not rightly dividing) bride, body, disciples, Christians, Israel, children, people, elect, redeemed... etc. Every term is an expression of our wonderful relationship with our Saviour God. The "arithmetic" is addition, or even multiplication, NOT division, nor subtraction.

 

I never said we were not in the city or that we would not enjoy it, what I am saying is the bible does not support that idea with even one verse that says the body of Christ, is the Bride who is IN the New Jerusalem.  If you wrongly join/add scriptures you will have a wrong understanding. 

 

If the bride comes to the groom, and we are one body with the groom, how can we be the Bride?  He cannot be both the bride and the groom.  How can we be of the body of the Christ, who is the lamb, and be his bride at the same time?

 

You cannot create one doctrine of the body being in the holy city and being the bride, to the neglect of the doctrine of the body of Christ.

 Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
 1Cor 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
 1Cor 12:27 ¶ Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

One doctrine of God can never negate or change another doctrine of God.  Especially one as important that we are one with him and he with us being his body.

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Eternity

 

Revelation 21:1-8

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

 

Kingdom age

 

Isaiah 65:17-25

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: (After Tribulation) and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days (Still Death) for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring (Birth) with them.

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

 

Ezekiel 47:1-12

 

The sea will be healed during the kingdom age.

So, are you saying there's going to be a new heaven and new earth right after the tribulation, and then ANOTHER new heaven and new earth after the Kingdom Age?   I would more believe that the order of events shown in the OT are not in order, while the events listed in revelation are in order, or more in order. In Isaiah we hear the Lord declare that He creates a NH/NE, a fact, but not necessarily staing that it happens at this point, when the other events are taking place, but in Revelation, we see John say that it happens before his eyes, so that should be the one taken literally in the time context given:

 

Tribulation> Wrath> Christ's return> sheep/goat judgment> milennial reign/kingdom age> final battle> final judgment/passing of first heaven and earth> new heaven and new earth> eternity.

 

This seems to be the clear order laid out in the Revelation.

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I never said we were not in the city or that we would not enjoy it, what I am saying is the bible does not support that idea with even one verse that says the body of Christ, is the Bride who is IN the New Jerusalem.  If you wrongly join/add scriptures you will have a wrong understanding. 
 
If the bride comes to the groom, and we are one body with the groom, how can we be the Bride?  He cannot be both the bride and the groom.  How can we be of the body of the Christ, who is the lamb, and be his bride at the same time?
 
You cannot create one doctrine of the body being in the holy city and being the bride, to the neglect of the doctrine of the body of Christ.
 Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
 1Cor 12:12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
 1Cor 12:27 ¶ Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

One doctrine of God can never negate or change another doctrine of God.  Especially one as important that we are one with him and he with us being his body.

 
I know that I said the 2nd admonition was over...but I feel OBligated to say this.
 
Seems like I recall something in the Bible...about a husband and wife...being one flesh.   :scratchchin:
 
Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
 
Matthew 19:4-6
  4   And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
  5   And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
  6   Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
 
Mark 10:7-8
  7   For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
  8   And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
 
1 Corinthians 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
 

Now...PLEASE pay close attention to what is being said here...

 

 
Ephesians 5:25-33
  25   Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
  26   That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
  27   That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
  28   So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
  29   For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
  30   For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
  31   For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
  32   This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
  33   Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
 
How can you not see this? You say that we can't be the bride of Christ...but you have no prOBlem with Christ being married to a city?

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There is a false teaching among Baptists that use a single verse as the foundation for their Christian cult:

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom,

which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the

bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.  John 3:29

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There is a false teaching among Baptists that use a single verse as the foundation for their Christian cult:

He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom,

which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the

bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.  John 3:29

1 Corinthians 6:17

What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

 

17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

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So, are you saying there's going to be a new heaven and new earth right after the tribulation, and then ANOTHER new heaven and new earth after the Kingdom Age?   I would more believe that the order of events shown in the OT are not in order, while the events listed in revelation are in order, or more in order. In Isaiah we hear the Lord declare that He creates a NH/NE, a fact, but not necessarily staing that it happens at this point, when the other events are taking place, but in Revelation, we see John say that it happens before his eyes, so that should be the one taken literally in the time context given:

 

Tribulation> Wrath> Christ's return> sheep/goat judgment> milennial reign/kingdom age> final battle> final judgment/passing of first heaven and earth> new heaven and new earth> eternity.

 

This seems to be the clear order laid out in the Revelation.

Mike

It is not me that says the earth will be remade twice it is the Bible. Study the passages I listed.

 

Eric

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(In Revelation 21 John described eternity New Jerusalem before he described the kingdome age New Jerusalem)

 

Revelation 21

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 

 

 

 

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

(Still sinners on earth during kingdom age)

 

 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    (In the kingdom age the New Jerusalem will be over Israel not on the ground) Micah 4

1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of JacOB; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

 

Eternity

(After the Great White Throne Judgment The New Jerusalem will come down to the ground and God will dwell with men)

 

Revelation21:1-8

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

(All sinners cast into lake of fire before eternity begins)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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Mike

It is not me that says the earth will be remade twice it is the Bible. Study the passages I listed.

 

Eric

 

Eric wouldn't it better to say things are restored during the Kingdom, then after the devil is loosed everything is destroyed with fire and a New Heaven and Earth appear? 

 

Ken

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Eric wouldn't it better to say things are restored during the Kingdom, then after the devil is loosed everything is destroyed with fire and a New Heaven and Earth appear? 

 

Ken

Right, the earth will be "restored" following the Great Tribulation (Day of the Lord),

but what Peter refers to is the destruction and remaking of the universe "by fire".

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my brethren is Israel parts of Romans 7 8 and 9 are directed to Israel.

My point is YOU nor the OP can unequivocally claim from the Bible that the Body of Christ is in the NEW JERUSALEM. Not one Bible verse supports those opinions, assumptions, beliefs or suppositions, your words leaven the words of Rev 21 and will lead many astray. And when you add that to the word of God without the Bible saying it you have corrupted and your are handling the word of God deceitfully.

2Cor 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
2Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:

Jesus did say that many will come, saying, I am the Christ (that is Jesus is the Christ) and deceive many. We are in those days of men who deceive with all subilty and make merchandise of people (do the word of Ministry for money, 401k's, Cars. homes, jets. boats and other worldly goods) Because their God is their belly.

Beware of false teachers that say the body of Christ is here or there, For they deceive and corrupt the very words of God in this heresy that has been assumed by even IFB pastors.

I could see you stumbling over Hebrews being written to Israel, even though it is OBviously addressed to the scattered Tribes as well.

Romans?

Not one word of Romans is addressed to Israel.

Some of it, addressed to the church in Rome, discusses Israel, but it is always 3rd person.

The movement of Pre-Trib nonsense, is predicated on the Calvinist-based Dispensational Wrong Dividing.

Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Deliverance comes 75 days into the 2nd half of this Testing.

my brethren is Israel parts of Romans 7 8 and 9 are directed to Israel.

My point is YOU nor the OP can unequivocally claim from the Bible that the Body of Christ is in the NEW JERUSALEM. Not one Bible verse supports those opinions, assumptions, beliefs or suppositions, your words leaven the words of Rev 21 and will lead many astray. And when you add that to the word of God without the Bible saying it you have corrupted and your are handling the word of God deceitfully.

2Cor 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
2Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:

Jesus did say that many will come, saying, I am the Christ (that is Jesus is the Christ) and deceive many. We are in those days of men who deceive with all subilty and make merchandise of people (do the word of Ministry for money, 401k's, Cars. homes, jets. boats and other worldly goods) Because their God is their belly.

Beware of false teachers that say the body of Christ is here or there, For they deceive and corrupt the very words of God in this heresy that has been assumed by even IFB pastors.

I could see you stumbling over Hebrews being written to Israel, even though it is OBviously addressed to the scattered Tribes as well.

Romans?

Not one word of Romans is addressed to Israel.

Some of it, addressed to the church in Rome, discusses Israel, but it is always 3rd person.

The movement of Pre-Trib nonsense, is predicated on the Calvinist-based Dispensational Wrong Dividing.

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