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Original Sin/the Sin Nature


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I am not embracing the position Winman holds, but he is being more intellectually honest and treating the scriptures fairly. Those of you railing on him have a hint of pride and arrogance in the way you are talking.

 

At least he is trying to contend for what he believes is the truth, while many of you are sitting here like cowards not defending a doctrine you believe to be true, We are suppose to contend for the faith.

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Saying you are wrong and the scriptures prove it, is not how you defend truth, you defend truth by quoting scripture and explaining it.

 

What you are all doing would be like if I started posting and saying Baptizing babies is ok, and if I then quote a scripture saying how that a household was baptized, then you would debunk me and I would just say SCRIPTURE SAYS YOU ARE WRONG.

 

This is exactly what many of you are doing.

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Winman, If the bible says there is none righteous, no not one, Than if we are not born with original sin and a sin nature, than doesn't that mean there is a time period in a Child's life where they are righteous because they have not yet sinned?

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Winman, If the bible says there is none righteous, no not one, Than if we are not born with original sin and a sin nature, than doesn't that mean there is a time period in a Child's life where they are righteous because they have not yet sinned?

You do realize that there had to have been infants on the Earth at the time that the statement was made, "There is none righteous, no, not one" don't you?  Blows a hole in the theory that infants are righteous.

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Saying you are wrong and the scriptures prove it, is not how you defend truth, you defend truth by quoting scripture and explaining it.

What you are all doing would be like if I started posting and saying Baptizing babies is ok, and if I then quote a scripture saying how that a household was baptized, then you would debunk me and I would just say SCRIPTURE SAYS YOU ARE WRONG.

This is exactly what many of you are doing.

All John did was say that he had read Winman's posts but still wasn't convinced. This is a fellowship/discussion forum, not a debate forum, so there's not onus on him to write a treastise on it in response. If you want a formal debate you should go to Bro Matt and asked him to consider it for the debate section he is thinking about setting up. As it is, anyone is free to drop in and express their thoughts on the OP, whether it's a rebuttal or just a remark.

 

For example, here's some one-line comments from someone who's hardly been given to substantive responses in this thread, and there's nothing wrong with that:
 

I find this to be the most convincing in favor of the doctrine of original sin/ the sin nature.

 

Well, that just answered the questions I was having with how you rendered those verses. It's very compelling. I will have to think upon this

 

I find this to be a compelling argument for Original Sin.

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Winman, If the bible says there is none righteous, no not one, Than if we are not born with original sin and a sin nature, than doesn't that mean there is a time period in a Child's life where they are righteous because they have not yet sinned?

 

Fantastic question Jordan, and I will answer it. The scriptures are not addressed to children, the scriptures are addressed to MEN. The Jews understood this, and still do. The Jews do not hold children accountable to the law until they are 13 years old (males) and 12 years old (females). This is called the Bar Mitzvah (boys), and Bat Mitzvah (girls). These words literally mean "son of the commandments" and "daughter of the commandments".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_Bat_Mitzvah

 

This is exactly what Paul is describing in Romans 7, when he learned the law as a young man (pre-teen). Paul said he would not have "known sin" except for the law, he would have not "known" what lust is, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet (10th commandment). 

 

Paul said he was ALIVE ONCE without the law, but when the commandment came (when he learned and understood the law), sin revived and he DIED. Paul cannot possibly be saying he physically died, so he was not saying he was physically alive either. Paul is saying he was spiritually alive, but when the learned the law he was convicted by the law as a sinner, and this is when he died. He died when he understood God's law. 

 

Rom 5:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
 
All sorts of folks have perverted this very simple and straightforward passage. In vs. 7 Paul simply explains how the law gave him KNOWLEDGE. 
It is the knowledge of good and evil that makes us accountable. 
 
But sin uses the law against us and convicts us of all sorts of sin. This is what Paul is saying in vs. 8. Sin has no power without law, but as soon as we learn the law and break it, we are "sold to sin" (vs 14). Now sin owns us and has power over us. 
 
But until Paul learned the law he was spiritually ALIVE. He was not born dead in sin as Original Sin falsely teaches. He was ALIVE. Plain as day. 
 
But when he learned the law, sinned revived and he DIED. That is spiritual death. Paul thought the law would lead to life, but sin took advantage of the law and used it against him to KILL him. 
 
Plain as day, but many have perverted this simple passage. 
 
Little children are not judged sinners. Jesus spoke only GOOD of little children. Jesus told his disciples they had to be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. 
 
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
Was Jesus telling his disciples they must become evil little sinners to enter heaven? Absurd!
 
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
 
Is Jesus telling us that God gives little wicked sinners guardian angels? Ridiculous!
 
No, the scriptures show children are innocent, God does not judge them as sinners until they learn the law like Paul did in Romans 7. When they know and understand the law, then they become accountable and will DIE spiritually when they choose to sin. 
 
When the scriptures say, For ALL have sinned, it is speaking of MEN not babies and very little children. The Jews understood this (and still do). 
 
 
 
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You do realize that there had to have been infants on the Earth at the time that the statement was made, "There is none righteous, no, not one" don't you?  Blows a hole in the theory that infants are righteous.

 

And you are mistaken, Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Nothing defiled is allowed to enter heaven, so OBviously little children are not defiled. 

 

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
Is Jesus telling his disciples they need to become filthy sinners to enter heaven? Absurd!
 
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 
The scriptures say no defiled thing will enter heaven. But Jesus said you must become converted and become as a little child to enter heaven. Therefore, simple logic dictates that little children are not defiled. 
 
And did Jesus say we must become as a certain or particular child to enter heaven? No, he simply said we must be converted and become as "little children" to enter heaven. Therefore, all little children are innocent and not sinners. 
 
Original Sin is complete falsehood. 
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All John did was say that he had read Winman's posts but still wasn't convinced. This is a fellowship/discussion forum, not a debate forum, so there's not onus on him to write a treastise on it in response. If you want a formal debate you should go to Bro Matt and asked him to consider it for the debate section he is thinking about setting up. As it is, anyone is free to drop in and express their thoughts on the OP, whether it's a rebuttal or just a remark.

 

For example, here's some one-line comments from someone who's hardly been given to substantive responses in this thread, and there's nothing wrong with that:
 

 

Yes, but if a person says, "Scripture refutes you" it is only fair that you at the least show what scripture you are referring to. That gives the other person a chance to respond. 

 

It is fine to say you agree with someone's post. You do not have to show scripture, the other person did. You are agreeing with that scripture and that person's interpretation of that scripture. 

 

But to simply say, "You are wrong, and scripture proves it" is meaningless. If you can't say something meaningful, you shouldn't say anything at all. 

 

I will respond to any scripture anyone posts here, and I guarantee you that I can show it does not support Original Sin. 

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And you are mistaken, Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Nothing defiled is allowed to enter heaven, so OBviously little children are not defiled. 

 

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
Is Jesus telling his disciples they need to become filthy sinners to enter heaven? Absurd!
 
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 
The scriptures say no defiled thing will enter heaven. But Jesus said you must become converted and become as a little child to enter heaven. Therefore, simple logic dictates that little children are not defiled. 
 
And did Jesus say we must become as a certain or particular child to enter heaven? No, he simply said we must be converted and become as "little children" to enter heaven. Therefore, all little children are innocent and not sinners. 
 
Original Sin is complete falsehood. 

 

Nice misapplication of Scripture, Winman.

Be converted and become as little children was not speaking of becoming like infants. 

Tell us, where is this fountain of youth you have received your reverse-age process from?  It clearly has fermented and addled your understanding capability.

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Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Why would an innocent child need to be trained in the way he should go?  If he is innocent, he is already in a good way.
 

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Hmm, who would a child of innocence need correction?

Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Why would an innocent child need to be beaten with a rod?

Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

An innocent child left to himself brings his mother shame? 

As I said, your ability to understand is addled.

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Nice misapplication of Scripture, Winman.

Be converted and become as little children was not speaking of becoming like infants. 

Tell us, where is this fountain of youth you have received your reverse-age process from?  It clearly has fermented and addled your understanding capability.

 

And you are mistaken. The word "converted" means to turn or repent. So Jesus is telling his disciples they must repent and become as little children to enter heaven. They must become sinless to enter heaven. No defiled thing enters heaven, I already showed you that. 

 

Little children are not evil, Jesus said they have angels who ALWAYS behold his Father's face. They are not separated from God. 

 

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
 
Was the prodigal son lost originally?
 
Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
 
You should read Luke chapter 15. Jesus tells three parable which are one, and they are all about sinners who repent. None were original lost as Original Sin falsely teaches.
 
Was the lost sheep originally lost?
 
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
 
The lost sheep did not start out lost, he was in the shepherd's flock. Originally the shepherd had one hundred sheep. This refutes Original Sin that teaches all men are born dead in sin and separated from God. Jesus show the EXACT OPPOSITE. 
 
How many silver pieces did the woman originally have?
 
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
 
How many pieces of silver did the woman originally have? TEN. How many were lost? NONE. Boy, Jesus must have forgotten all men are born lost when he told these parables, because he is clearly speaking of lost sinners in this chapter. 
 
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
 
Jesus got it right that a sinner has to repent, why does he mistakenly teach the sinner was not originally lost? Something is wrong here. 
 
And then he tells us about the prodigal son. Was he originally lost?
 
Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
 
Nope, Jesus said the father had two sons. They weren't lost. 
 
The prodigal didn's start out lost, but he soon decided to leave home and fell into sin. It was then that he was joined to a citizen (the devil) of that far country. 
 
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
 
This is when the prodigal became lost and spiritually dead, when he knowingly and willingly left home and went out in sin. It was then that he was joined to that citizen (the devil) of that far country. 
 
Could he repent? Yep, and he did. 
 
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
 
Did the prodigal lose the ability to repent as many falsely teach? NOPE, he headed for home. And notice that the father saw the boy coming when he was still a great way off. Hey, that's God's foreknowledge, God can see who will repent before they actually do!
 
But now, what did Jesus say the father said when the boy repented?
 
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
 
Whoa! Wait a minute! What is Jesus saying here??? What does Jesus mean, the prodigal is alive AGAIN? That's impossible, we are all born dead in sin, none of us was ever alive until we repented. Right? Right?? Right????
 
BOOM! Original Sin is destroyed by Jesus himself. When the boy repented Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. You have to be alive once to be alive AGAIN, just like Paul said in Romans 7. 
 
Did Jesus forget we are all born dead in sin? Did Jesus forget that all of us are born separated from God? How could Jesus make such serious mistakes?? 
 
Surely Jesus must have been mistaken when he said the prodigal was alive AGAIN. That is impossi.....  what? He said it again? Where?
 
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
 
No, no, no, say it ain't so Joe!! Jesus said it again! He said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN! What was Jesus thinking? Doesn't Jesus know we are all born dead in sin? 
 
It just can't be so, it just can't be so, it just can't be so.....
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Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Why would an innocent child need to be trained in the way he should go?  If he is innocent, he is already in a good way.
 

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Hmm, who would a child of innocence need correction?

Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Why would an innocent child need to be beaten with a rod?

Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

An innocent child left to himself brings his mother shame? 

As I said, your ability to understand is addled.

 

You do not comprehend. I have never denied that children do not do wrong things. I have eight children, I bet that I understand this better than you. 

 

But God does not hold them ACCOUNTABLE. Read that until you understand it. God does not hold little children accountable when they do wrong. Why? Because they do not understand their actions. 

 

We are just the same. If a three year old boy picks up his father's pistol and shoots and kills his sister, do we try that little child for murder and then send him to the electric chair? NO. Why? Because the little boy did not really understand what he was doing. He does not even really understand the concept of death. When he sees someone on TV shoot another person, it looks fun. 

 

And God is the exact same way, he does not hold that child accountable, he does not judge that child as a sinner. 

 

Children do wrong things all the time, but that doesn't make them a sinner. God does not hold them accountable until they understand what they are doing. The Jews understood this, and did not hold a boy responsible until he was 13 years old, and a girl 12. 

 

The scriptures are not written to little children, it is written to mature  men and women who understand it. 

 

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

When the Jews sinned in the wilderness, God would not allow them to enter the promised land, which is a figure of heaven. But he did allow the little children to enter in. Why? Because they did not know between good and evil in the day that their parents sinned.

 

You don't get it, it is the "knowledge of good and evil" that makes us spiritually die. That is why Adam and Eve spiritually died, because they had the knowledge of good and evil.

 

And we are all born with that knowledge, but it take a few years to develop and mature, just like our bodies. At about the same time our bodies grow hair to cover our most private parts, men's minds develop and they understand good and evil. This is when they become accountable before God. Now when they knowingly sin, they DIE. 

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Become as children does not mean repentance.  It is speaking of trusting. , exercising faith. Unless on converts and becomes trusting as a child is trusting of its parents.


And you are wrong when you say Scriptures were not for children. 

Colossians 3:20 Children, OBey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

You can continue to deny the facts if you wish, Winman, but it won't make them go away.

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Become as children does not mean repentance.  It is speaking of trusting. , exercising faith. Unless on converts and becomes trusting as a child is trusting of its parents.


And you are wrong when you say Scriptures were not for children. 

Colossians 3:20 Children, OBey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

You can continue to deny the facts if you wish, Winman, but it won't make them go away.

 

The scriptures are not written for "little" children. Although a parent should begin early and teach children scripture. But we are talking about MATURITY. God does not hold little children accountable, because they do no know between good and evil. I have already showed you scripture that directly says this. You can read. 

 

It is you that is denying what the scripture plainly says. 

 

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

Is that big enough for you to read? Do you understand what God was saying? He said he was going to let the little children go in and possess the promised land. Why, because they had no "knowledge between good and evil" when their parents sinned. 

 

It is you that is clearly in denial, nOBody is fooled. 

 

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

 

Are little children born knowing to refuse evil and choose good? NOPE.

 

You are just hurting yourself by denying scriptural truth. 

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