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Original Sin/the Sin Nature


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This is how I understand it:

 

 

 

There was sin in the world BEFORE Adam.

How do I know? Because the "Serpent" was on the world and he was already a liar, a false teacher, a thief and a murderer. Death passed upon men because a LAW was given and they disOBeyed, namely "Thou shalt not EAT" of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  When Adam disOBeyed that law, death passed upon him. Read it for yourself......

Romans 5

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

 

We are "shapen in iniquity"

 
Psalmn51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
 
We are all sinners.....
 
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 
But we do not "die" until we sin for the first time...

 

 Romans 7: 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

In conclusion, we are not responsible for ADAM's sin": we are responsible for our own.

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death came upon all men when Adam introduced sin into the world - because of this all men have sinned.
That is Biblically plain - all men are sinners because Adam sinned, and we are his children.

However;
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Notice that His Son was made "of a woman".
The Virgin birth is essential because the Bible indicates that the sin nature is passed through the man - part of God's defined authority structure.
Jesus had no earthly father and therefore no inherent sin nature.

Sin was neither within Him, nor did He sin of Himself.

 

This is another false belief unsupported by scripture. 

 

What was the most common name the Jews called Jesus? The SON OF DAVID. 

 

Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

 

The Jews knew the promised Messiah or Christ had to be a physical descendant of David. The scriptures directly tell us that Jesus was made of the "seed of David according to the flesh"

 

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

The angel that spoke to Mary called David Jesus's "father"

 

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
 
We are told in scripture why Jesus had to be born of a virgin, it was a sign. It has nothing to do whatsoever about preventing Jesus from inheriting a sin nature. 
 
You inherit one half of your DNA from your mother. You inherit one fourth of your maternal grandfather's DNA from your mother. 
 
Jesus inherited David's DNA from Mary his mother. In fact, Jesus inherited Adam's DNA from his mother. This belief that a sin nature is passed down by the father is nothing but medieval superstition. 
 
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
 
Again, the prOBlem is that Christians listen to all sorts of nonsense from men, and do not read the Bible. If they did they would discover that they have been taught many falsehoods, and would not be deceived. 
 
 
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This is how I understand it:
 
There was sin in the world BEFORE Adam.
How do I know? Because the "Serpent" was on the world and he was already a liar, a false teacher, a thief and a murderer. Death passed upon men because a LAW was given and they disOBeyed, namely "Thou shalt not EAT" of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  When Adam disOBeyed that law, death passed upon him. Read it for yourself......
Romans 5
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 
We are "shapen in iniquity"
 
Psalmn51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
 
We are all sinners.....
 
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 
But we do not "die" until we sin for the first time...
 
 Romans 7: 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
 
In conclusion, we are not responsible for ADAM's sin": we are responsible for our own.
 
Psalm 51:5 is describing David's mother, not David. Men do no conceive, only women conceive. This scripture says David was conceived in sin. There are several theories on this. 
 
It is known that David had two sisters Zeruiah and Abagail whose father was Nahash the Ammonite. So David's mother had relations with a non-Jew before David was born which was absolutely taboo and forbidden. 
 
1 Chr 2:15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh:
16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.
 
2 Sam 17:25 And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.
 
David did not have the same mother as his seven older brothers. His mother was prOBably Jesse's second wife. Jesse and his seven sons treated David very poorly, prOBably because of his mother. When the prophet Samuel held a feast and asked to see all of Jesse's sons, TWICE Jesse failed to present David. The other seven sons were all invited, but David had to keep the sheep. Only when Samuel insisted did Jesse finally present David, whom Samuel chose. We are also told in this story that David's brothers were tall and handsome, while David was short and not handsome.
 
1 Sam 16:5 And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice.
6 And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said, Surely the LORD'S anointed is before him.
7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
8 Then Jesse called Abinadab, and made him pass before Samuel. And he said, Neither hath the LORD chosen this.
9 Then Jesse made Shammah to pass by. And he said, Neither hath the LORD chosen this.
10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The LORD hath not chosen these.
11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.
12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
 
David was the black sheep of his family, prOBably because of his mother. In Psalm 51 David is prOBably saying he was the "dog" his father and brothers had always told him he was. 
 
If David was saying he was born a sinner, that would hardly be a confession of sin. 
 
 
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Unsupported by the Scriptures?
Hmmmmmm I thought Romans 5:12 and Galatians 4:4 were in the Bible???

I guess I will have to go and look again.....

 

Sure, you can pull scripture out of context and claim it says what it does not say, but that does not prove your view. As I showed earlier, it is a known fact that Augustine used a flawed Latin text that said "in whom all have sinned" in Romans 5:12 which Augustine interpreted to be speaking of Adam. Nearly all Greek scholars admit the Greek does not say this and Augustine's interpretation was error. This is where the doctrine of Original Sin originated. 

 

As Dr. MacGorman, a professor of Greek for over 56 years said;

 

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2013/01/adam-harwood-and-jw-macgormans-dangerous-unorthodox-doctrine-inevitably-leading-to-heresy-if-not-worse.html

 

 

 

1. The Vulgate, a fourth-century Latin translation of the Bible, wrongly translated the last clause of Romans 5:12. Where the Greek text has, "Because all men sinned," the Vulgate rendered, "In whom all sinned." Adam was regarded as the unnamed antecedent of "in whom."
 
2. Upon the basis of this translation error in the Vulgate, Augustine (a.d. 354-430) developed his doctrine of original sin. He taught that all men were seminally present in the loins of Adam when he sinned. Thus he held that the whole human race sinned in Adam's sin. By virtue of our physical descent from Adam, we inherit his guilt. We are born guilty of original sin, according to Augustine. …
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Why don't you stick with what the Bible actually says rather than speculating on what you think it means?

When you begin to use "prOBably" in talking about doctrinal issues you step outside of safety an to thin ice.

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I do know the word of God says that if we say we are without/have no sin (and that would mean at anytime in our lives as well as right now this instant) we make God a liar and his word is not in us.

 

1John 1:8, 10 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. . . .   If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Also the Bible says this,  Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. before we were ever born God said we were sinners and that Christ dies for us.

 

Is it so hard to see/believe that men are born in sin, that they have a sin nature? 
 

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Why don't you stick with what the Bible actually says rather than speculating on what you think it means?

When you begin to use "prOBably" in talking about doctrinal issues you step outside of safety an to thin ice.

You are not responding to what he's saying, you are just basically saying "You are wrong and I am right" , without even defending your position, you are not being honest about debunking his position.

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I do know the word of God says that if we say we are without/have no sin (and that would mean at anytime in our lives as well as right now this instant) we make God a liar and his word is not in us.

 

1John 1:8, 10 ¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. . . .   If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

I find this to be a compelling argument for Original Sin.

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Why don't you stick with what the Bible actually says rather than speculating on what you think it means?

When you begin to use "prOBably" in talking about doctrinal issues you step outside of safety an to thin ice.

 

If you stuck with what the Bible said, you would not believe in Original Sin. 

 

We KNOW that David had two sisters who were fathered by Nahash the Ammonite. This was absolutely taboo for a Jewish woman. Psalm 51:5 says David was "conceived" in sin. Men do not conceive, only women conceive, so this verse is speaking of his mother. There was some sin involved when he was conceived, but no one knows exactly what happened.

 

But one thing Psalm 51:5 does not say is that all men are born with a sin nature. It says no such thing, you have to read that into the scriptures. 

 

And Romans 5 refutes Original Sin, verse 14 very specifically says that men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin. 

 

Besides that, if Romans 5 was teaching Original Sin, it would have said ALL MEN, not men from Adam to Moses only. 

 

No, Paul was simply showing that there was a law in the world, even between Adam and Moses, and this is why men from that period spiritually died. They died because they violated the law written on their hearts Paul had told us in Romans 2. 

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I find this to be a compelling argument for Original Sin.

 

How does that prove Original Sin? No one is denying that all men sin. 

 

That verse has nothing to do with Original Sin whatsoever. 

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You are not responding to what he's saying, you are just basically saying "You are wrong and I am right" , without even defending your position, you are not being honest about debunking his position.

 

As I told you before, lots of people tell me I am wrong, but they can never say WHY.

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You are not responding to what he's saying, you are just basically saying "You are wrong and I am right" , without even defending your position, you are not being honest about debunking his position.

No, I am pointing out that he is moving from Biblical fact to speculation when he bases a doctrine on words like "prOBably".

He is trying to argue that David being conceived in sin is because "he prOBably was from Jesse's second wife."

If he showed biblical proof of it then fine, but he did not.

I showed in two simple verses a basic run down - he responded with speculative argument.

I am not going to argue against speculation with more speculation.

By the way he responded to me by saying that what I posted was false and unsupported by Scripture.

Who exactly is accusing without Addressing the post?
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No, I am pointing out that he is moving from Biblical fact to speculation when he bases a doctrine on words like "prOBably".

He is trying to argue that David being conceived in sin is because "he prOBably was from Jesse's second wife."

If he showed biblical proof of it then fine, but he did not.

I showed in two simple verses a basic run down - he responded with speculative argument.

I am not going to argue against speculation with more speculation.

 

All I know is that David's mother had two daughters with Nahash the Ammonite. I showed the scripture that tells us this. 

 

Psalm 51:5 says David was "conceived in iniquity". It is the mother that conceives, men do not conceive. This verse is describing David's mother and says she was sinning when David was conceived, but it does not give us the exact details. There are all sorts of possibilities, perhaps she got pregnant BEFORE she married Jesse. 

 

Happens every day. 

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The actual issue is that David must still have had a father and a mother does not conceive alone.
The father's seed must be present - your speculation of another mother is irrelevant in the argument.
David, like all men, was conceived in sin - this is the natural reading of the passage.
And it fits with the verses I posted previously.

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