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Original Sin/the Sin Nature


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The first verse using the word sin is found in Genesis 4:7 before Cain sinned.  However it is found after the fact that Adam sinned by willfully (with free will) eating of the fruit of the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and Evil.

 

 Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Cain at this point is not said to have sinned but that he was real close too.

 

Gen 3:6, 11 ¶ And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.  ¶ And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

 

So it would seem that Adams willful eating of the fruit is his sin even though it never said it was in Genesis but we can understand that is what it was because of a later revelation unto Paul in Romans 5.

 Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. this is difficult to understand because the Doctrine of sin states that each of us got sin from Adam, well how did we get sin if it wasn't imputed?       
 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
clearly here it states that DEATH reigned from Adam until Moses and we understand that death still reigns ove men today.  And it further states that this death reigned over them who did not have the sin of the original man, this we know was the original sin of mankind, and also it is not the original sin of Lucifer.  We are here told that how that death was passed onto all men because of Adam.
 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 
this tells us that the offense of Adam which caused death will not be passed on to men in the same way when the figure of one to come arrives.  Death came to us because we were born of a man who disOBeyed God and death was given to him as his punishment.  He did die and all his descendants also have this death in them and that this death was given them by Adam because of his transgression of God's instruction.    
 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.  So it is clear that if you want the life that comes through Jesus it will not be given in the same way that death was given to all men via our genetic code but as we all know it will be by grace through Faith alone.
 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  Only through faith can we have righteousness reign in life by our belief on the Cross of Jesus Christ.        
 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 
Because of the judgment given to Adam we are all condemned to death spiritually and physically. and by the righteousness of Christ those who believe on him get the free gift of God, salvation.  Again this is a work of God through our faith so no one gets salvation, righteousness or justification without it.   
 19 For as by one man's disOBedience many were made sinners, so by the OBedience of one shall many be made righteous.  Now here is the clearest statement that men were made sinners by the act of Adam's transgression. this means that the nature of sin was given to all men.  to say you don't believe men had sin nature is wrong that nature is in us by Adam.
 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
  So even though the offense of sin abounds in all men so grace is offered all men that they through imputed righteousness of Christ have eternal life.

 

I believe that is the clearest OBservation of scripture that shows that all men have a Sin Nature and once they believe on Christ's finished work of the cross they become partakers of the divine nature.   2Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.   There are many today who are not partaking in the divine nature that has been given them by the faith they have in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.  I see an application in this verse for the church even though I believe that this verse is doctrinally for Israel in the Great Tribulation yet to come.

I find this to be the most convincing in favor of the doctrine of original sin/ the sin nature.

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Now I will address Romans 5:12-21, a very famous passage commonly used to "prove" Original Sin. I will show you from scripture that Romans 5;12-21 does not prove Original Sin, in fact, it refutes it. 

 

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 
Does Romans 5:12 say a sin nature passed on all men? NO, it says DEATH passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. 
 
It is a fact that Augustine used a flawed Latin text that said "in whom" in verse 12, that he mistakenly interpreted to mean Adam. Almost all Greek scholars admit that the scriptures Augustine used gave a flawed intepretation, and that this verse should say, "because all have sinned" or "for that all have sinned" showing that men die because of PERSONAL sin, not Adam. This is a historical fact. 
 
Dr. J. W. “Jack” MacGorman, Distinguished Professor Emeritus of New Testament at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for over 56 years wrote this concerning Augustine's interpretation of Romans 5:12-21;
 

 
1. The Vulgate, a fourth-century Latin translation of the Bible, wrongly translated the last clause of Romans 5:12. Where the Greek text has, "Because all men sinned," the Vulgate rendered, "In whom all sinned." Adam was regarded as the unnamed antecedent of "in whom."
2. Upon the basis of this translation error in the Vulgate, Augustine (a.d. 354-430) developed his doctrine of original sin. He taught that all men were seminally present in the loins of Adam when he sinned. Thus he held that the whole human race sinned in Adam's sin. By virtue of our physical descent from Adam, we inherit his guilt. We are born guilty of original sin, according to Augustine. …
 
 
 
It was Augustine who first attempted to develop the concept of Original Sin from the scriptures. Unfortunately, he was using a flawed Latin text that implied death passed on all men because of Adam's sin, but that is not what Romans 5:12 says in the Greek. The Greek fathers NEVER agreed with Augustine's interpretation. This is HISTORICAL FACT. 
 
Next, does verse 14 say that all men sinned Adam's sin in the garden? NO, it very specifically says they HAD NOT sinned in the similitude of Adam's sin. If we were all in Adam's loins as some falsely teach, we would be guilty of Adam's EXACT sin. Verse 14 clearly refutes this error. 
 
And note that verse 14 mentions only men from Adam to Moses. This is solid PROOF that Romans 5:12-21 is not addressing the subject of Original Sin whatsoever, because if it was, it would apply to ALL MEN, not men from Adam to Moses only. 
 
No, what Paul is really saying is that the fact all men from Adam to Moses died PROVES sin was in the world. 
 
But in verse 13 Paul says sin is not imputed when there is no law. So why did men from Adam to Moses spiritually die? Because they broke the law written on their hearts that Paul showed in chapter 2. 
 
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
 
Paul had already explained in chapter 2 that men "without law" shall perish "without law". Why? Because all men by "nature" have the law written on their hearts. This is why men from Adam to Moses who had no written law perished. They DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin, that would be impossible, as no man had access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil after Adam and Eve were banished from the garden. 
 
Lastly, if Romans 5:12-21 is teaching that all men are made sinners unconditionally because Adam sinned, then verses 18-19 must also teach that all men are unconditionally made righteous because of Christ's OBedience.
 
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disOBedience many were made sinners, so by the OBedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
You cannot violate Paul's form of argument in Romans 5:12-21. What applies to the first phrase must also apply to the second phrase in each verse. You cannot teach that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, and then Jesus's righteousness is conditionally imputed to those that believe. That violates Paul's form of argument. 
 
You have only two options to be consistent. 
 
#1 Adam's sin is "unconditionally" imputed to all men, likewise Jesus's righteousness is "unconditionally" imputed to all men. This would lead to Universalism, and Rom 5:18-19 is in fact the chief proof text used by Universalists. We know from scripture this interpretation is error, the scriptures are clear that not all men will be saved. 
 
#2 Adam's sin and condemnation is "conditionally" imputed to all men when they willingly and knowingly sin as Adam did, and Jesus's righteousness is "conditionally" imputed to all men who believe on Jesus as Jesus trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. 
 
#2 is the correct interpretation. When we knowingly and willingly sin as Adam did, we are judged or made "sinners" as Adam was, and those men who trust Jesus are judged or made "righteous" as Jesus was righteous because he trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. 
 
What Paul is teaching is what is known as "Legal Precedent". In law, a legal precedent is when the law uses a case (usually the first case) as a precedent or authority establishing a principle or rule that a court or other judical body adopts when deciding later cases involving similar issues or facts. This guarantees equal treatment and fairness under the law. 
 
So, however the first person who broke a law was treated, the law will normally use this as a standard in future cases. If the first person to break a law got 5 years in jail, persons who commit the same crime will most likely be given the same sentence. 
 
And this is what Romans 5 is teaching. When we sin as Adam, we are imputed "sinners" and sentenced to death, when we believe as Jesus we are imputed "righteous" and given the free gift of justification unto life. 
 
Romans 5:12-21 DOES NOT support Original Sin. Rightly interpreted it absolutely refutes it. 
 
 
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Now I will address Romans 5:12-21, a very famous passage commonly used to "prove" Original Sin. I will show you from scripture that Romans 5;12-21 does not prove Original Sin, in fact, it refutes it. 

 

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 
Does Romans 5:12 say a sin nature passed on all men? NO, it says DEATH passed upon all men, FOR THAT ALL HAVE SINNED. 
 
It is a fact that Augustine used a flawed Latin text that said "in whom" in verse 12, that he mistakenly interpreted to mean Adam. Almost all Greek scholars admit that the scriptures Augustine used gave a flawed intepretation, and that this verse should say, "because all have sinned" or "for that all have sinned" showing that men die because of PERSONAL sin, not Adam. This is a historical fact. 
 
Dr. J. W. “Jack” MacGorman, Distinguished Professor Emeritus of New Testament at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary for over 56 years wrote this concerning Augustine's interpretation of Romans 5:12-21;
 
 
 
It was Augustine who first attempted to develop the concept of Original Sin from the scriptures. Unfortunately, he was using a flawed Latin text that implied death passed on all men because of Adam's sin, but that is not what Romans 5:12 says in the Greek. The Greek fathers NEVER agreed with Augustine's interpretation. This is HISTORICAL FACT. 
 
Next, does verse 14 say that all men sinned Adam's sin in the garden? NO, it very specifically says the HAD NOT sinned in the similitude of Adam's sin. If we were all in Adam's loins as some falsely teach, we would be guilty of Adam's EXACT sin. Verse 14 clearly refutes this error. 
 
And note that verse 14 mentions only men from Adam to Moses. This is solid PROOF that Romans 5;12-21 is not addressing the subject of Original Sin whatsoever, because if it was, it would apply to ALL MEN, not men from Adam to Moses only. 
 
No, what Paul is really saying is that the fact all men from Adam to Moses died PROVES sin was in the world. 
 
But in verse 13 Paul says sin is not imputed when there is no law. So why did men from Adam to Moses spiritually die? Because the broke the law written on their hearts that Paul showed in chapter 2. 
 
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
 
Paul had already explained in chapter 2 that men "without law" shall perish "without law". Why? Because all men by "nature" have the law written on their hearts. This is why men from Adam to Moses who had no written law perished. They DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin, that would be impossible, as no man had access to the tree of knowledge of good and evil after Adam and Eve were banished from the garden. 
 
Lastly, if Romans 5:12-21 is teaching that all men are made sinners unconditionally because Adam sinned, then verses 18-19 must also teach that all men are unconditionally made righteous because of Christ's OBedience.
 
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disOBedience many were made sinners, so by the OBedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 
You cannot violate Paul's form of argument in Romans 5:12-21. What applies to the first phrase must also apply to the second phrase in each verse. You cannot teach that Adam's sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, and then Jesus's righteousness is conditionally imputed to those that believe. That violates Paul's form of argument. 
 
You have only two options to be consistent. 
 
#1 Adam's sin is "unconditionally" imputed to all men, likewise Jesus's righteousness is "unconditionally" imputed to all men. This would lead to Universalism, and is in fact the chief proof text used by Universalists. We know from scripture this interpretation is error, the scriptures are clear that not all men will be saved. 
 
#2 Adam's sin and condemnation is "conditionally" imputed to all men when they willingly and knowingly sin as Adam did, and Jesus's righteousness is "conditionally" imputed to all men who believe on Jesus as Jesus trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. 
 
#2 is the correct interpretation. When we knowingly and willingly sin as Adam did, we are judged or made "sinners" as Adam was, and those men who trust Jesus are judged or made "righteous" as Jesus was righteous because he trusted his Father to raise him from the dead. 
 
What Paul is teaching is what is known as "Legal Precedence" in law. Legal Precedence is when the law is a precedent or authority establishing a principle or rule that a court or other judical body adopts when deciding later cases involving similar issues or facts. This guarantees equal treatment and fairness under the law. 
 
Romans 5:12-21 DOES NOT support Original Sin. Rightly interpreted it absolutely refutes it. 
 
 

 

Well, that just answered the questions I was having with how you rendered those verses.

 

It's very compelling. I will have to think upon this

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Psalms 58:3 (KJV) 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

 

This verse is hyperbole and should not be taken literally. There has never been a child born that could instantly speak, much less tell lies which involves "intent"

 

If you are going to interpret verse 3 literally, then you need to interpret the verses following it literally as well. 

 

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
 
Is verse 3 speaking of all men? NOPE, it is speaking of "the wicked". Go down to verses 10 and 11 and David speaks of "the righteous"
 
10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

 

So, David was not speaking of "all men" in verse 3. 

 

In verse 4 David says the wicked are poisonous like an adder and deaf too. Are babies poisonous like an adder? That sure would make breastfeeding dangerous.  :nuts:

 

How about verse 6? Here David says the wicked have great teeth like young lions. Are babies born with a mouthful of huge teeth? Again, breastfeeding sure would be dangerous if this Psalm is to be taken literally. 

 

How about verses 7 and 8? Do babies melt like snails? Better keep them away from salt!

 

And do you really believe David was praying for all babies everywhere to pass away? Absurd. 

 

So, to take this Psalm literally and use it to form doctinre is ridiculous and foolish. This scripture is poetry and hyperbole or extreme exaggeration and should not be taken literally. 

 

Folks do not use the brains they were born with, and foolishly believe what others tell them without thinking.  :icon_confused:

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Well, that just answered the questions I was having with how you rendered those verses.

 

It's very compelling. I will have to think upon this

 

It's compelling because it's TRUE. Romans 5:12-21 is not teaching Original Sin. Verse 14 proves that without a doubt. It directly says men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam. 

 

There is another famous verse that shows this as well. Romans 9:11;

 

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
 
Original Sin teaches that all men sinned "in Adam". Augustine believed we were all seminally present in Adam's loins and actually participated in his sin when he ate the forbidden fruit. Folks base this on Hebrews 7:9-10;
 
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
 
OK, first of all, how many sins had JacOB and Esau committed while they were in their mother's womb according to Romans 9:11? NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA!
 
If you believe that Paul was teaching all men sinned with Adam being in his loins, then you would have to believe that Paul completely forgot this fact when he said JacOB and Esau had neither done good "or evil" in Romans 9:11.
 
I don't really believe Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would make a mistake like this, do you? 
 
And if Hebrews 7:9-10 is literal, you have opened a real can of worms. Why, because it says Levi paid tithes in his grandfather Abraham's loins, not Adam!
 
That would mean we are not only guilty of Adam's sin, but ALL of our grandfather's sins! 
 
But wait, it gets worse. Was it a sin for Abraham to pay tithes to Melchisedec? NO, it was good! It was an act of righteous worship. So not only would we be guilty of all our grandfather's sins, if our grandfathers believed and were saved, we would be saved too!
 
No, this is the ridiculous "Federal Headship" theory that did not even exist until the 16th century. It has no basis in scripture. 
 
Dr. Hargood also wrote of this ridiculous theory;
 

3. In the seventeenth century Johann Cocceius proposed a different theory of original sin. He taught that God entered into a covenant with Adam as the federal head of the human race. If Adam OBeyed God, all mankind would receive eternal life; but if he disOBeyed, all would be condemned to corruption and death. Since Adam sinned, God imputed his sin to all his descendants. This has been called the Federal Theory of Original Sin or the Theory of Condemnation by Covenant. It has influenced greatly the churches of the Reformed tradition. However, there is not one shred of evidence in the Bible that God ever entered into such a covenant with Adam. The theory was born in Europe, not Eden.
 
 
Original Sin is a false doctrine created by men without a word of support in scripture. This false doctrine has introduced more error into the church than any other such as baptizing babies and the Immaculate Conception. One error leads to another and on and on and on. 
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It's compelling because it's TRUE. Romans 5:12-21 is not teaching Original Sin. Verse 14 proves that without a doubt. It directly says men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam. 

 

There is another famous verse that shows this as well. Romans 9:11;

 

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
 
Original Sin teaches that all men sinned "in Adam". Augustine believed we were all seminally present in Adam's loins and actually participated in his sin when he ate the forbidden fruit. Folks base this on Hebrews 7:9-10;
 
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
 
OK, first of all, how many sins had JacOB and Esau committed while they were in their mother's womb according to Romans 9:11? NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA!
 
If you believe that Paul was teaching all men sinned with Adam being in his loins, then you would have to believe that Paul completely forgot this fact when he said JacOB and Esau had neither done good "or evil" in Romans 9:11.
 
I don't really believe Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would make a mistake like this, do you? 
 
And if Hebrews 7:9-10 is literal, you have opened a real can of worms. Why, because it says Levi paid tithes in his grandfather Abraham's loins, not Adam!
 
That would mean we are not only guilty of Adam's sin, but ALL of our grandfather's sins! 
 
But wait, it gets worse. Was it a sin for Abraham to pay tithes to Melchisedec? NO, it was good! It was an act of righteous worship. So not only would we be guilty of all our grandfather's sins, if our grandfathers believed and were saved, we would be saved too!
 
No, this is the ridiculous "Federal Headship" theory that did not even exist until the 16th century. It has no basis in scripture. 
 
Dr. Hargood also wrote of this ridiculous theory;
 
 
 
 
Original Sin is a false doctrine created by men without a word of support in scripture. This false doctrine has introduced more error into the church than any other such as baptizing babies and the Immaculate Conception. One error leads to another and on and on and on. 

 

What are the results and ramifications of accepting the doctrine of original sin? 

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What are the results and ramifications of accepting the doctrine of original sin? 

 

Well, most importantly you are blaming God for sin. 

 

Original Sin doesn't even make sense. If God hates sin, why would he curse us to be sinners? That is ridiculous. Calvinism teaches that God cursed us so we lost the free will to do true good. Does that make sense?

 

We put criminals in jail so they cannot continue to go around hurting people and committing more crime. Wouldn't it make more sense if God took away our free will to do evil?

 

I mean, if God really hates sin, why would he curse us so that we MUST sin? 

 

People do not think. 

 

The scriptures nowhere teach that God cursed us to be sinners. Ask folks to show you from scripture, they can't do it. 

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I find this to be the most convincing in favor of the doctrine of original sin/ the sin nature.

the point we must see is that only Adam was responsible for his "original and first sin". None of us were guilty of that first original sin but we got the result of the original sin passed on to us, death.

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There has never been a child born that could instantly speak, much less tell lies which involves "intent"

But I have seen sinfulness at work in infants. 

 

they are growing beings and as such exhibit manipulative selfish ways. 

 

They learn very quickly that when they cry someone will come and pick them up.  Oftentimes they seem to be crying for no reason, they were fed, they are not sick, and they have not dirtied themselves.  They just want to be picked up. 

 

Nothing wrong with that except when you can't get anything done because they kid keeps crying for no reason other than wanting to be picked up. 

 

That is the natural propensity to self centered sin that is in them from birth.

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the point we must see is that only Adam was responsible for his "original and first sin". None of us were guilty of that first original sin but we got the result of the original sin passed on to us, death.

 

Physical death, yes, spiritual death, NO. 

 

God does not impute any person's sin to another person. 

 

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

The Jews were forbidden to punish a son for his father's sin and vice versa. If God were to punish us for Adam's sin he would be a hypocrite breaking his own laws! Jesus hated hypocrites. 

 

Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

 

God said "every man" shall be put to death for his "own sin". Original sin goes completely against God's word. 

 

Yes, all men die physically for Adam's sin, but this is actually a blessing. If God did not cause man to die physically he would live forever in sin. It is the fear of dying that is our greatest incentive to trust in Christ, 

 

Most men are very reluctant to trust in Jesus as it is, imagine if there was no physical death, no man would turn to God. 

 

So in a sense, physical death is good and a blessing toward man. 

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But I have seen sinfulness at work in infants. 

 

they are growing beings and as such exhibit manipulative selfish ways. 

 

They learn very quickly that when they cry someone will come and pick them up.  Oftentimes they seem to be crying for no reason, they were fed, they are not sick, and they have not dirtied themselves.  They just want to be picked up. 

 

Nothing wrong with that except when you can't get anything done because they kid keeps crying for no reason other than wanting to be picked up. 

 

That is the natural propensity to self centered sin that is in them from birth.

 

What you see is the "flesh". The flesh simply wants what it wants. The flesh cannot choose, it simply pulls and tugs us toward sin. The scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh, and that he was tempted in "all points" as we are. Did Jesus have a sin nature?

 

And again, Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve were all "very good" (Gen 1:31) yet they had lustful desires and were able to sin. So, the fact that we sin does not prove we have a sin nature, only that we have free will. 

 

And God does not hold children accountable until they understand right from wrong. 

 

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

When the Jews sinned against God, God cursed them so that they would not enter the promised land. But he let the little children enter in, which is a figure of heaven. Why? Because they had no "knowledge" between good and evil in that day that their parents sinned. 

 

So, little children might do wrong, but God does not hold them accountable until they understand their actions. 

 

God spared Nineveh because there were 120,000 little children there who could not discern between their right and left hand, and much cattle. 

 

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
 
God's question to Jonah implies a YES answer, that God SHOULD spare Nineveh. Why? Because there were more than 120,000 innocent little children who could not discern between their right hand and left hand there. They were no more guilty of sin than the cattle that cannot sin. 
 
Jesus NEVER spoke evil of little children, only good. Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Jesus said little children have angels who always behold his Father's face. 
 
Was Jesus telling his disciples they must become filthy little sinners to enter heaven? Nonsense. Was Jesus teaching that filthy little sinners have guardian angels? Absurd!
 
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

 

People believe the false teachings of Augustine and Calvin who followed him because they do not know the scriptures. Original Sin is total falsehood refuted by MUCH scripture. 

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What you see is the "flesh". The flesh simply wants what it wants. The flesh cannot choose, it simply pulls and tugs us toward sin. The scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh, and that he was tempted in "all points" as we are. Did Jesus have a sin nature?

 

And again, Satan, the fallen angels, and Adam and Eve were all "very good" (Gen 1:31) yet they had lustful desires and were able to sin. So, the fact that we sin does not prove we have a sin nature, only that we have free will. You are believing that Lucifer and his angels were created during the 6 days work of God in Genesis 1:3-31.  I do not believe that they were I believe they were created some time before the earth was. and that would be before Genesis 1:1

 

And God does not hold children accountable until they understand right from wrong.  I believe that children of unsaved couples if they die before the age of accountability will go to hell as their parents will.  Otherwise why would Paul teach that the children of at least one Christian are Holy in  1Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.    hense if they are holy, if they die before accountable age they go to heaven.

 

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.  self-centered sin/selfishness is sin and it is evident even in children 2 months old

 

When the Jews sinned against God, God cursed them so that they would not enter the promised land. But he let the little children enter in, which is a figure of heaven. Why? Because they had no "knowledge" between good and evil in that day that their parents sinned. 

 

So, little children might do wrong, but God does not hold them accountable until they understand their actions. Scriptures please doing wrong is sin whether they know it or not.

 

God spared Nineveh because there were 120,000 little children there who could not discern between their right and left hand, and much cattle.  NO it does not say 120,000 children but but persons.  it was the total population God was speaking of.

 

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
 
God's question to Jonah implies a YES answer, that God SHOULD spare Nineveh. Why? Because there were more than 120,000 innocent little children who could not discern between their right hand and left hand there. They were no more guilty of sin than the cattle that cannot sin. 
 
Jesus NEVER spoke evil of little children, only good. Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Jesus said little children have angels who always behold his Father's face. 
 
Was Jesus telling his disciples they must become filthy little sinners to enter heaven? Nonsense. Was Jesus teaching that filthy little sinners have guardian angels? Absurd!
 
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Jesus used the example of a little child because Childern are dependent on their father to provide protect and care for them, he is speaking of an attitude change.  Converted here does not mean to go from one religion to another.  But to change from an attitude of self centered service of self unto a God centered purpose and serve others better before serving yourself   Php 2:3 [Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 
 
 
Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

 

People believe the false teachings of Augustine and Calvin who followed him because they do not know the scriptures. Original Sin is total falsehood refuted by MUCH scripture. 

  If you believe that you can be born and live a life and die not ever hearing about Jesus Christ and God's grace through him and you will not go to hell you are mistaken. 

 

I never said you or anyone else committed original sin.  However because of the original sin Death came upon all men for all have sinned child or adult.  What you are against is that you are born in sin, that is you have a sin nature before you are of the age of accountability.

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  If you believe that you can be born and live a life and die not ever hearing about Jesus Christ and God's grace through him and you will not go to hell you are mistaken. 

 

I never said you or anyone else committed original sin.  However because of the original sin Death came upon all men for all have sinned child or adult.  What you are against is that you are born in sin, that is you have a sin nature before you are of the age of accountability.

 

Show where I ever said such a thing. Do you think it is right for you to put words in my mouth I never said? Is that being honest?

 

Scripture says "death" came upon all men for that all have sinned. It did not say a sin nature came upon all men. Paul could have said that, he used the word "nature" several times in the book of Romans. In fact, Paul said "by nature" the Gentiles do the things contained in the law. Is that evil?

 

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 

Your prOBlem is that you have listened to what other people told you, and not read the scriptures. If you read the scriptures you would know that Original Sin is completely false. 

 

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

 

Here Paul said that homosexuality goes against man's nature. This sin is "unnatural" for men, heterosexuality is "natural". 

 

If men were sinners by nature, the exact opposite would be true, homosexuality would be natural. 

 

If men were sinners by nature, then no one would arrest a person for stealing or murder, as that would be perfectly normal. 

 

People do not think. 

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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death came upon all men when Adam introduced sin into the world - because of this all men have sinned.
That is Biblically plain - all men are sinners because Adam sinned, and we are his children.

However;
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Notice that His Son was made "of a woman".
The Virgin birth is essential because the Bible indicates that the sin nature is passed through the man - part of God's defined authority structure.
Jesus had no earthly father and therefore no inherent sin nature.

Sin was neither within Him, nor did He sin of Himself.

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