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John Calvin Had It All Wrong


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Back to the original question...why take offense at an opposing point of view???

 

Certainly he knows some won't agree with his view but that's a far cry from purposefully trying to offend someone.

 

This brings us back to the prOBlem we have in this country of the Left declaring anything they consider offensive to be subject to silencing. This has led to some on the so-called Right trying to play the same game. Which brings up the question as to who gets to decide what is or isn't offensive and why take offense at all?

 

If someone posts an opposing view we can choose to ignore it or present our own view. Some folks simply want to silence opposing views because they are either unable or unwilling to support their own views. That's just as wrong as those who take offense at anything they disagree with even if it's not offensive.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I have no prOBlem with opposing points of view.
I have a prOBlem with people posting false information that they know for certain will be offensive to many on this site.

He does this.
Not opposing views - false and deliberately offensive.

And I am not the only one who thinks so.

You seem to be happy to allow him to be deliberately offensive but baulk at the mere suggestion that someone might have an opposing view on decently dressed women.

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Did Jesus die for the sins of Hitler?  Well, John the Baptist said, of Jesus, "Behold the Lmab of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

 

The sin of the world seems like a pretty all-encompassing thing.

 

Paul, when speaking of the gospel, said, "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" If this is the gospel, which is preached to the LOST, then the "OUR sins" would be speaking universally.

 

Jesus Christ died for ALL the sin of ALL the world-He paid for the sin of the entire world, all the lost. Thus, yes, even for Hitler and Jeffery Dahmer and Ted Bundy and Joseph Stalin and Osama Bin Laden, etc, etc.

 

The question is, Is this to be considered "universal redemption"?   No, redemption is to possess something and then, one day, redeem it to yourself, like buying something on layaway-you can pay for it, but leave it until a convenient time to pick up. It is bought and paid for, your property, but to be redeemed at a later time.  So, Christ paid for the sin of ALL, but not all will be redeemed, because unlike layaway, the product paid for has to be in agreement-they have to accept that payment for themselves. So, some reject that Jesus paid for them, some disbelieve it, some still want to try and pay for themselves.

 

Salvation is like having a gift for someone-its bought and paid for, and I am holding it in my hand, offering it to them-but that person must reach out and accept the gift, or it does them no good-it is theirs, it is paid for, but not accepted. We MUST accept salvation for the salvation to apply to us.

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Our church begins our Holiday Bible Club at 1 p.m. today. It will run all week. Previous years we have up to 70 children, mostly from non-Christian families.

 

Later, I will be leading a Bible study with Asian friends, hopefully including a Muslim lady. I thought Hebrews 1:1 - 2:4 would be a suitable passage for a mixed gathering.

 

We have a number of choruses we can sing in both Punjabi & English. 

 

Over 40 children present - the "English" are likely to be Polish RCs.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I've not read an offensive post by Covenanter.

 

I still don't know what the attire of women has to do with this. Scripture says we are to dress modestly. If your view on modesty is different than mine I'm not going to be offended by that.

 

Just what is it that you are offended over?

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Did Jesus die for the sins of Hitler?  Well, John the Baptist said, of Jesus, "Behold the Lmab of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

 

The sin of the world seems like a pretty all-encompassing thing.

 

Paul, when speaking of the gospel, said, "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" If this is the gospel, which is preached to the LOST, then the "OUR sins" would be speaking universally.

 

Jesus Christ died for ALL the sin of ALL the world-He paid for the sin of the entire world, all the lost. Thus, yes, even for Hitler and Jeffery Dahmer and Ted Bundy and Joseph Stalin and Osama Bin Laden, etc, etc.

 

The question is, Is this to be considered "universal redemption"?   No, redemption is to possess something and then, one day, redeem it to yourself, like buying something on layaway-you can pay for it, but leave it until a convenient time to pick up. It is bought and paid for, your property, but to be redeemed at a later time.  So, Christ paid for the sin of ALL, but not all will be redeemed, because unlike layaway, the product paid for has to be in agreement-they have to accept that payment for themselves. So, some reject that Jesus paid for them, some disbelieve it, some still want to try and pay for themselves.

 

Salvation is like having a gift for someone-its bought and paid for, and I am holding it in my hand, offering it to them-but that person must reach out and accept the gift, or it does them no good-it is theirs, it is paid for, but not accepted. We MUST accept salvation for the salvation to apply to us.

I consider it offensive to insist that Jesus died for the sins of Hitler & all who lived utterly evil lives & died unrepentant. That Jesus did not save sinners for whom he died. Offensive to Jesus, rather than to me. I don't take offence when people disagree with me.

 

General statements like "Behold the Lmab of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."  & "our sins" do not imply universality. "The world" can simply mean the Gentiles as distinct from the Jews. What it cannot mean is "everybody who has ever lived," because the whole world's sins were NOT taken away. If they were, then all the world has had its sins taken away, & all are now no longer sinners. 

 

Why ever did Jesus pray:

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (John 17) ?

Then in John 3 he has declared: God so loved the world. Is Jesus refusing to pray for the world God loves? And is Hitler enjoying the unchanging love of God in Hell?

 

I don't accept your explanation of redemption. Something is mine, but I lose it, someone else takes possession, then I redeem it - buy it back. God's people are his by creation, but are lost sinners. The redemption price is the precious blood of Christ. All would be redeemed if he paid for the sin of all.

 

Certainly we must accept the free gift of salvation, but it is bought & paid for by Christ already. That we accept as the Holy Spirit makes us aware of our sin, & our Saviour.  

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Don't doubt it Convenanter.  In order for Christ t truly take away the sins of the world it must include even the vilest of men and their sins too.  even if they were not saved.  that is why it says that while we were yet sinner Christ died for us.

 

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
 

 

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
 

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"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

 

We see two groups here:

 

the world: that means, well, the WORLD-everybody. To try to force an interpretation onto it, to mean PART of the world, or the part of the world that was pre-chosen for salvation, but NOT the part that was pre-chsen for hell. It means the world.

 

Whosoever believeth in Him; that means those OF the world that believe and receive salvation.

 

Jesus died for ALL sinners.

 

acts 17:30- :And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:'  God would be unrighteous to command all men to repent, if He knew full well some could not, and the thers would have no choice bUT to repent.

 

Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  The gift came upon all men-justification was made for all, in nthe death and resurrection of Christ for all men, but not all would accept it, and thus, die in their sins.

 

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.". Jesus draws all, but some reject that drawing.

 

1tim 3:2,3: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

 

1Tim 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."  I believe this verse is extremely telling, because it says He is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY those that believe. not ONLY those that beleve. Jesus is, potentially, Saviour of ALL men, because He died for all men, for the sin of the world, but because some will reject, salvation is not realized for them. So He is Savour of all, but that salvation will only be realized in those who receive, those that believe.

 

John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jesus lights, or enlightens ALL men that come into the world, but some hate the light and refuse it, because they love darkness more.

 

The Bible disagrees time and again with the idea of "world=only some of the world". And really, it would mean only a very tiny portion of the world-that Jesus, out of multiplied billions who would live upon the earth, only a few would be pre-ordined to life by God. God only loves a few, of His choosing, and only sent His Son to die for a few few chosen to life.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The scriptures don't say, "once we got saved Christ died for us only".

 

We know there is free will and we know that there could not be predestination because the Holy Bible says,  2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

When we look plainly at the scriptures we see this in one verse.

 

1) If men are predestined then there is no need for them to come to repentance.

2) If God's will that none should perish he could simply just predestine ALL men instead of waiting for them to come to repentance.

3) We would have no need to learn of God's attribute of longsuffering

 

In no way are the 5 points of Calvinism correct.  When just about every point is refuted in this one verse.

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The scriptures don't say, "once we got saved Christ died for us only".

 

We know there is free will and we know that there could not be predestination because the Holy Bible says,  2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

When we look plainly at the scriptures we see this in one verse.

 

1) If men are predestined then there is no need for them to come to repentance.

2) If God's will that none should perish he could simply just predestine ALL men instead of waiting for them to come to repentance.

3) We would have no need to learn of God's attribute of longsuffering

 

In no way are the 5 points of Calvinism correct.  When just about every point is refuted in this one verse.

However, a good Calvinist will argue that "us-ward" refers only to the brethren, those who are destined for salvation, and no others. This is, of course, wrong, because again, you must then take a term like "not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance" actually means, 'not willing that any (of the elect) should perish, but that all (the elect) should come to repentance.  Except that's not what it says, neither in word, context or implication. 'any' and 'all' mean just that, Any and All.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

For God so loved the Reformed, that he gave his only begotten son, that the limited few he had unconditionally chosen to overpower their resistance and thereby believe against their will, should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvin 3:16

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

However, a good Calvinist will argue that "us-ward" refers only to the brethren, those who are destined for salvation, and no others. This is, of course, wrong, because again, you must then take a term like "not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance" actually means, 'not willing that any (of the elect) should perish, but that all (the elect) should come to repentance.  Except that's not what it says, neither in word, context or implication. 'any' and 'all' mean just that, Any and All.

Then that is adding to the word and they bring a curses upon them for doing such and that would mean they are not saved.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

For God so loved the Reformed, that he gave his only begotten son, that the limited few he had unconditionally chosen to overpower their resistance and thereby believe against their will, should not perish but have everlasting life. Calvin 3:16

hee hee hee haw haw haw hahahahahha! :nuts:

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Don't doubt it Convenanter.  In order for Christ t truly take away the sins of the world it must include even the vilest of men and their sins too.  even if they were not saved.  that is why it says that while we were yet sinner Christ died for us.

 

 Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
 

 

Mt 19:26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
 

Those Scriptures are, of course, true. Rom. 5 doesn't disprove election. Mat. 19 says that God works the impossible in salvation, & that suggests irresistible grace.

.

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"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

 

We see two groups here:

 

the world: that means, well, the WORLD-everybody. To try to force an interpretation onto it, to mean PART of the world, or the part of the world that was pre-chosen for salvation, but NOT the part that was pre-chsen for hell. It means the world.

 

Whosoever believeth in Him; that means those OF the world that believe and receive salvation.

Jesus was talking to a Pharisee  - Nicodemus - who believed in the salvation of Abraham's physical descendants. The idea of Gentiles being saved horrified them. Now Jesus teaches new birth, & baptism, & counts the world as being loved by God. The world of Gentiles in general.    

 

Jesus died for ALL sinners.

That means there are countless sinners in Hell for whom Jesus paid the full redemption price. Many of whom never heard the Gospel. Some of the antediluvians heard Noah preaching righteousness, & the Sodomites heard Lot's rebuke, but were they given a message of salvation? And what about the Israelites delivered from Egypt, who died in the wilderness?     

 

 

acts 17:30- :And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:'  God would be unrighteous to command all men to repent, if He knew full well some could not, and the thers would have no choice bUT to repent.

Have you ever told your children to "Be good" knowing they cannot? God cannot be accused of unrighteousness.  

 

 

Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  The gift came upon all men-justification was made for all, in nthe death and resurrection of Christ for all men, but not all would accept it, and thus, die in their sins.

That text is a challenge - we need to look at the context. 

  15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disOBedience many were made sinners, so by the OBedience of one shall many be made righteous.

  Certainly all are condemned because of sin. What is the "gift" ? A take-it-or-leave offer, or the righteousness of Jesus Christ? Paul writes: the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Does that gift come to "all men" including unrepentant sinners? No. it comes to: they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Note that Paul uses both "many" & "all" in his argument.  

 

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.". Jesus draws all, but some reject that drawing.

The context is that certain Greeks wanted to see Jesus. Jesus' reply is that by his death & resurrection he will draw all men - Gentiles (Greeks) as well as Jews.  

 

 

1tim 3:2,3: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

The Gospel is freely proclaimed; NONE are excluded by the Gospel call. No-one can say, "God doesn't mean me."   

 

1Tim 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."  I believe this verse is extremely telling, because it says He is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY those that believe. not ONLY those that beleve. Jesus is, potentially, Saviour of ALL men, because He died for all men, for the sin of the world, but because some will reject, salvation is not realized for them. So He is Savour of all, but that salvation will only be realized in those who receive, those that believe.

The context is God's provision for all men - food, marriage, etc - see also Acts 14 when Paul remonstrates with those who wanted to offer them sacrifices. And, of course, for all who repent & come to Jesus for salvation he is their Saviour & provider. [Pray for our brethren who are being driven from their homes, that God will provide.]  

 

 

John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." Jesus lights, or enlightens ALL men that come into the world, but some hate the light and refuse it, because they love darkness more.

True.

 

The Bible disagrees time and again with the idea of "world=only some of the world". And really, it would mean only a very tiny portion of the world-that Jesus, out of multiplied billions who would live upon the earth, only a few would be pre-ordined to life by God. God only loves a few, of His choosing, and only sent His Son to die for a few few chosen to life.

"World" always has a context.

 

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Yes it does....."A world" does, "This world" does, "worlds" does too. but "the world"....there is only one "the world". "For God so love THE WORLD".

 

 

Like in  

 

Joh 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

 

or:

 

Lu 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
 
Not to mention  
 
Ac 11:28  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
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How does First Timothy 4:10 fit into this?

Because it proclaims that jesus is the Saviour of all men, specially those who believe.  So Jesus died to pay for all sin of all men of all time, but only some receive that payment and salvation.

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Like in  

 

Joh 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

To the Pharisees, israel pretty much was the entire world, or all they cared about.

 

or:

 

Lu 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
This is quoting Agustus; HE said that all the world was to be taxed. To Agustus, all he controlled was THE world
 
Not to mention  
 
Ac 11:28  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
 
How do we know there wasn't a dearth in the whole world? Keep in mnd the world is specifically the people, the lost. So where there were people, there was a dearth.

 

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