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John Calvin Had It All Wrong


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There is a vast difference between believing the Gospel of Christ and being saved, and having differing views of what Scripture means.

 

I can believe you are a good man who loves your family while at the same time come to think you are a goat kicker and whether or not I'm right about the goat kicking doesn't change the fact I know the you who is a good man who loves your family.

 

The majority of folks I know who were born again had little understanding of the Bible and little knowledge of Jesus beyond the Gospel that was presented to them. It was after salvation that they read the Word, studied the Word, attended church and from there formed their doctrinal views.

 

There is no doubt that the night I was saved if someone had come up to me after I was born again and asked me about a point of Calvinism or Arminianism, or some other point on this spectrum, I wouldn't have had a clue what they were talking about or known who was right or wrong.

 

While what little I know of Benny Hinn I'm pretty sure I'm in disagreement with, but as to whether he's saved or not, I don't know near enough to even hazard a guess.

 

One thing I do know, there are many folks I have no doubt they are saved even though they hold to differing, sometimes very differing views, on various aspects of Scripture. One can speculate and debate how born again Christians can come to different views on any number of issues but that doesn't change the fact saved people can hold different understandings of things yet they are still saved. All of this is part of living in a fallen world where none of us will know perfection or be in perfect accord.

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Ah yes but John we are not talking about individuals, but about doctrines.

What you say may be right about an individual, but a doctrine MUST BE CORRECT.

If a teaching is wrong, whether or not the one teaching it is saved, that teaching is wrong.

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Covenantor, how do you know the kid is one of God's "elect", according to Calvinism, he wouldn't know until he died whether he was saved from hell or not. Calvinism is of man, not God.

He believes & confesses Jesus as Lord & Saviour.

 

Your misunderstanding of "calvinism" has NOTHING to do with the Gospel of salvation & Christian living.

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How about you actually answer the question.
How DOES one know if they are elect?

After all, that is far closer to the actual theme of this thread than your propaganda.

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How about you actually answer the question.
How DOES one know if they are elect?

After all, that is far closer to the actual theme of this thread than your propaganda.

 

Paul answers your question:

1 Thes. 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

4 Knowing , brethren beloved , your election of God.

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad ; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come .

John adds:

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

confirming the words of Jesus:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another .

We look for the fruit of the Spirit:

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

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Dave,

 

I agree with your point about the importance of doctrine. I've not argued doctrine isn't important, only that if one responds to the Gospel of salvation they are saved regardless if they understand other biblical doctrines.

 

Sometimes it's argued that if one is a Calvinist, Armenian, Lutheran or Methodist that means they aren't saved. That's a false argument.

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Ah yes but John we are not talking about individuals, but about doctrines.

What you say may be right about an individual, but a doctrine MUST BE CORRECT.

If a teaching is wrong, whether or not the one teaching it is saved, that teaching is wrong.

But, Dave, are YOU the inspired arbiter of sound doctrine? Am I? I consider much of your teaching is in error, & readily rejected by Scripture, but I hesitate to condemn you for your errors. We could be friends - brothers in Christ - but I would not invite you to teach. We are all learning, both from Scripture & each other, & only in glory will we know all truth.

 

I seek to quote Scripture that DIRECTLY supports what I believe & teach, whereas your teaching tends to be INFERRED from Scripture & interpreted in accord with your beliefs.

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And yet still the question goes unanswered.

I can tell you a personal instance where a young man who was saved became influenced by a Calvinist. He became convinced Calvinism was correct, but then also became worried he was not one of the elect. He was given no reasonable answer by his calvinist friend.
This fear so caught him that he eventually convinced himself that if he didn't "just know he was one of the elect" that he must not be.
And he stopped coming to church, moved into a worldly lifestyle, and was still in that situation the last time I heard about him.
I can assure you that his downfall was due to the influence of Calvinism and because he could not be told how to know he was elect.

So how about you actually answer the question.......

And saying he was OBviously not one of the elect won't help him with his fear now....

You misquote scripture to fit with your predetermined system of false belief.
I preach simply what the Bible actually says.
Your position is shown by the way you impose your beliefs on this matter, on prophesy, and on anything to do with Israel.
Wherever I have opposed you I have done so with the simple understanding of Scripture.
You don't directly answer questions - just as you did here, you put a pseudo answer and then deflect to something else.

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A full understanding of Scripture is not required for one to be saved. Thanks be to God for that! We must believe that Jesus is the Son of God, come in the flesh, died and resurrected to pay for our sins. With our heart we believe, with our mouth we confess.

 

God made salvation very easy.

 

Our view of various other matters, which most often are come to after salvation, don't necessarily prove or disprove one being saved or lost.

No requirement to believe he is the son of God for Salvation today, but it was taught that he is. This was a requirement under a gospel to the circumcision or the Gospel of the Kingdom, for the kingdom was at hand.

 

We should believe he is Saviour by substitutionary Death, Burial and Resurrection.  Rom 10:9-1 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.  1Cor 15:3, 4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

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 born again Christians

can anyone show me a verse where Gentiles, under the Gospel of Grace are said to be "Born Again Christians"?

 

Especially in any book to the churches written by Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles from Roman's to Philemon.

 

then explain to me why it is used in context of Israel in John 3.  and by the Apostle to the circumcision which is to Israel also.

 

Why doesn't Paul ever use the term Born again, Born Again Church, Born again Christian, Born Again Body of Christ?

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2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

Sounds like being born again to me.

 

You can't be "in Christ" without being saved. When someone is saved (in Christ), old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Paul may not have used the term "born again", but his terminology describes the same concept.

 

John 3:3-8
  3   Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  4   Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
  5   Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  6   That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  7   Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
  8   The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit...

 

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

Christ said that no man is born again without being born of water and of the Spirit. Paul agrees (since he was inspired by the Holy Spirit) that the REGENERATION and RENEWING is done of the Holy Ghost.

 

Regeneration...renewal...born again.

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