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Spurgeon's quote has to do with anger.  The Bible specifically says, "be angry and sin not."  My anger is in hopes to get this site back to where it once was, years ago, when I used to learn a lot.  Other's use sarcasm, like yourself, which belittles people.  I ask, what's the difference?

"A vigorous temper is not altogether an evil. Men who are easy as an old shoe are generally of little worth." ~ Charles Spurgeon 

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Pastor Adrian Rogers, a staunch anti-Calvinist, yet called Calvin's Institutes one of the greatest Christian books.   While I don't know what all Reformed Baptist churches hold to, the few I'm famil

Well people make minute differences - variations in small and irrelevant matters and then point to them and claim they are not the same. And there are variations in these as there are in other matte

The prOBlem here, gentlemen, is our human inability to grasp the nature of God, so we want to make it mean what we want it to mean. Does the Bible say God is Spirit? Absolutely. Does it say He has han

Reformed Theology is the same as Covenant Theology.  Covenant Theology uses an historical-grammatical method of Bible interpretation for many passages, but also uses the allegorical or spiritualizing 

I love that people always use Spurgeon as an example of a Baptist calvinist. I have every message that he ever preached that was recorded (by written records for the picky ones) and he preached a co

If scripture was your sole authority you wouldn't be pointing people to a confession that some blokes put together in 1689...... :rolling:

Are you seriously going to follow him down his rabbit trail and away from the OP? He doesn't like the subject and is trying to lead it away. Go right ahead and feast at his table - but it is a red

Actually, I would say the only reason you're on OB right now is that Matt and the mods seem to have an abundance of grace in letting you routinely whine and whinge about how they are not providing you

See heading of thread........ But you already know - that's why you are here after all - to promote the doctrines you follow in spite of this being a forum that is not in agreement with those doctri

I have known people who call themselves Baptist who are Calvinist and that Calvinism has led them into replacement theology, so by your own reasoning, your post is nonsense....... Just because you

No invicta, my OP is not nonsense.  It is an accurate description of what Calvinism believes and teaches---Covenant/Reformed Theology, which is actually Replacement Theology.  Laurence Vance wrote an

I have read a bit of Spurgeon myself, and I find him very balanced on the 'teachings' of the scriptures, and I always am encouraged by what I read. Therefore what is said about one 'teaching' being f

If that was in reference to the post above yours (the only one in the vicinity where someone named other men and what they taught or believed) -- then consider this a cease and desist order on the per

If Scripture was your sole authority, you would not be embracing some of the doctrines you embrace.

I will now contribute to this thread.   The best way to learn about Reformed Baptists is to study the 1689 Baptist confession.    I did submit a question for Herman Hanko to answer. I got a "polit

BAck to the OP, folks-no more going following rabbits down their holes. Otherwise we'll just close this down and start afresh.

The opening post is nonesense.  I know some reformed Baptists who are dispensationalists, quite a number actually.  

I am reading Calvin because I wanted to read him for myself and draw my own conclusions. Not read articles from other writers and Internet forums and read their conclusions.

I am amazed at some IFB's who don't know this, Linda (or at least claim they don't know it).  If someone who was raised in the RCC for most of my life, knows what it is, then an IFB should know it.  M

Spurgeon's quote has to do with anger.  The Bible specifically says, "be angry and sin not."  My anger is in hopes to get this site back to where it once was, years ago, when I used to learn a lot.  O

LOL!!! Whoa! Never noticed that!! Hilarious!!!

No. God condescends to our intellect. He speaks to us in language and concepts that we can understand.Do you really think in Psalm 18, God literally reached down from heaven in the same sense that you

And God said, "Let there be light." How did God speak if He had no mouth?

Standard misdirection employed by those who want to promote a false interpretation of the Bible. No intelligent person would deny that there are symbolic passages in God's Word, but they are clearly

Okay, that's it. There will be no further hijacking of threads with complaints about 'how bad Online Baptist has gotten.' From anyone. No more complaining about the site, no more putting down the mods

Good post, Dave.  I have to deal with Roman Catholics and Protestants on a daily basis in the real world.  Why is it that "Online Baptist - An Independent Baptist Community since 2002!  (Note the expl

Thanks for the lesson in private messaging, Linda. No assumptions were posted.  A public comment was made. And publicly responded to.  Enough said.

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Well, if they are gracious to keep me on OB, then they are keeping others on OB who whine as well.  And, those who are sarcastic to the point of belittling people, daily.

Dr. Ach is a Jew like myself.  My ancestral roots have been proven.  I am also Black Irish (which is Hispanic Irish).  I may not use sarcasm like you do, Al.  I just get to the point.  I have never been know to beat around the bush.   Having a temper, from now and then is not a bad thing at all.  It is better than people who sit like bumps on a log, and do nothing.  I believe Charles Spurgeon said something to this effect.  Let me see if I can find his quote.

 

Well I don't know who you're talking about when you say they are gracious to those who are sarcastic to the point of belittling people daily, because you beat around the bush by not naming names. If you're referring to me, my response is that I don't think I was sarcastic toward you at all in that post I just wrote, and as for belittling people daily I do tend to criticise TGL for his behaviour towards me and others, though not frequently, so fair comment I guess.

 

You telling me you are a Jew--sorry don't see the relevance to what is effectively a discussion about good manners. Good for you if you know your roots; I don't know mine.

 

And whining and having a bad temper (your word--I've not noticed it) is not the same as doing something. HC and Salyan and the other mods are the ones who are doing something.

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 My anger is in hopes to get this site back to where it once was, years ago

 

I know and I addressed that point in my first response to you. I don't think publicly slating the mods and the whole site again and again and again while never expressing gratitude and moreover supporting those who say they want the mods and site owner booted will help the site at all.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Well I don't know who you're talking about when you say they are gracious to those who are sarcastic to the point of belittling people daily, because you beat around the bush by not naming names. If you're referring to me, my response is that I don't think I was sarcastic toward you at all in that post I just wrote, and as for belittling people daily I do tend to criticise TGL for his behaviour towards me and others, though not frequently, so fair comment I guess.

 

You telling me you are a Jew--sorry don't see the relevance to what is effectively a discussion about good manners. Good for you if you know your roots; I don't know mine.

 

And whining and having a bad temper (your word--I've not noticed it) is not the same as doing something. HC and Salyan and the other mods are the ones who are doing something.

Two members on this site, including you, belittle people with sarcastic comments. Yes, I am talking about your personally sarcastic posts to TGL.  

You don't see the relevance of being being a Jew by blood?  Did you read what the OP said?  It cuts me to the core of my soul to see people, on this site, talk about what the OP stated.  You seriously can't get that?  Not being a Jew, I suppose you wouldn't though.

I will repeat Spurgeon's quote, as you conveniently looked it over.

 "A vigorous temper is not altogether an evil. Men who are easy as an old shoe are generally of little worth." ~ Charles Spurgeon 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I know and I addressed that point in my first response to you. I don't think publicly slating the mods and the whole site again and again and again while never expressing gratitude and moreover supporting those who say they want the mods and site owner booted will help the site at all.

 

You have no clue as to the gratitude I have expressed to LuAnne in our private messages.  End of story!

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You don't see the relevance of being being a Jew by blood?  Did you read what the OP said?  It cuts me to the core of my soul to see people, on this site, talk about what the OP stated.  You seriously can't get that?  Not being a Jew, I suppose you wouldn't though.

 
I'll let the rest slide because Salyan's asked us to, but gotta respond to this bit. I wasn't talking about the OP when I said I don't see the relevance of you being a Jew, I was talking about the conservation you and me have just been having. Here's what I said again:
 

You telling me you are a Jew--sorry don't see the relevance to what is effectively a discussion about good manners.

 

Edited by Alimantado
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

My issue with Linda's post was her allegory/ literal translation of Scripture. I have never heard it read in Covenant theology that the church was visible or in anyway in the OT. If anyone believes that they are wrong.

I would have to say that either you have not read any of the Systematic Theology books of any Covenant theologians or if you have read any of them, you believe these Covenant theologians to be incorrect.

 

Here's a cuple of quotes from Covenant theologian Louis Berkhof in his book, Systematic Theology (second revised and enlarged edition; Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1941), p. 293, 571:

 

"The establishment of the covenant with Abraham marked the beginning of an institutional Church". 

"The Church existed in the old dispensation as well as in the new, and was essentially the same in both."

 

Covenant theologian Charles Hodge also believed that the Church existed in the OT:

 

"The Church under the New Dispensation is identical with that under the Old.  It is not a new Church but one and the same.  It is the same olive olive tree (Rom. 11:16-17).  It is founded on the same covenant made with Abraham." (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1968, 3:549).

Edited by LindaR
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I would have to say that either you have not read any of the Systematic Theology books of any Covenant theologians or if you have read any of them, you believe these Covenant theologians to be incorrect.
 
Here's a cuple of quotes from Covenant theologian Louis Berkhof in his book, Systematic Theology (second revised and enlarged edition; Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1941), p. 293, 571:
 
"The establishment of the covenant with Abraham marked the beginning of an institutional Church". 
"The Church existed in the old dispensation as well as in the new, and was essentially the same in both."
 
Covenant theologian Charles Hodge also believed that the Church existed in the OT:
 
"The Church under the New Dispensation is identical with that under the Old.  It is not a new Church but one and the same.  It is the same olive olive tree (Rom. 11:16-17).  It is founded on the same covenant made with Abraham." (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1968, 3:549).


Thanks for the info: I still don't agree with that! The OT believers were "saved" because of their belief of the promise and are part if the body of Christ with all other believers, but I don't believe the church wasn't instituted until the NT
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Are you seriously going to follow him down his rabbit trail and away from the OP?

He doesn't like the subject and is trying to lead it away.

Go right ahead and feast at his table - but it is a red herring and I just don't like his oily fish........

Not following them, in fact, just the opposite, trying to sqelch the argument before it gets further from the OP.

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Thanks for the info: I still don't agree with that! The OT believers were "saved" because of their belief of the promise and are part if the body of Christ with all other believers, but I don't believe the church wasn't instituted until the NT

The OT believers are not part of the Church if they died before Pentecost (Acts 2), when the Church began.  If you don't believe what those Covenant/Reformed theologians (Berkhof and Hodge), then why do you believe the teachings of Calvinism---because Calvinism teaches Covenant/Reformed Theology.

Edited by LindaR
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Calvinism is a very insidious doctrine. I think bits and pieces of it get so 'normalized' within solid Christian circles that people can adopt parts of it without even realizing it. (not applying this to anyone in particular, just saying.) It's like those people you meet that think they're '2-point Calvinists' without realizing that Calvinism so entwines and defines itself that you cannot be accept a single point of their doctrine without embracing the whole.

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The OT believers are not part of the Church if they died before Pentecost (Acts 2), when the Church began.  If you don't believe what those Covenant/Reformed theologians (Berkhof and Hodge), then why do you believe the teachings of Calvinism---because Calvinism teaches Covenant/Reformed Theology.


I am reading Calvin because I wanted to read him for myself and draw my own conclusions. Not read articles from other writers and Internet forums and read their conclusions.
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Calvinism is a very insidious doctrine. I think bits and pieces of it get so 'normalized' within solid Christian circles that people can adopt parts of it without even realizing it. (not applying this to anyone in particular, just saying.) It's like those people you meet that think they're '2-point Calvinists' without realizing that Calvinism so entwines and defines itself that you cannot be accept a single point of their doctrine without embracing the whole.

What exactly don't you like or think is wrong with TULIP? The reason I ask, is that Calvin was more than the TULIP, the first section of Institutes deals primarily of who God is and lays the best argument ever against Atheism.
Most people think Calvin was all about the 5 points, that's why I ask.
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I am reading Calvin because I wanted to read him for myself and draw my own conclusions. Not read articles from other writers and Internet forums and read their conclusions.

 

So who's edition are you reading? The French, or the English, I believe Henry Beveridge. I do own a two volume edition, and I have read a very small amount.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The opening post is nonesense.  I know some reformed Baptists who are dispensationalists, quite a number actually.  

No invicta, my OP is not nonsense.  It is an accurate description of what Calvinism believes and teaches---Covenant/Reformed Theology, which is actually Replacement Theology.  Laurence Vance wrote an excellent book on Calvinism, "The Other Side of Calvinism" and I have found a portion of that 800 page book online.  That portion is called "Calvinism and the Baptists".

 

An excerpt from Laurence Vance’s book, “The Other Side of Calvinism”: Calvinism and the Baptists 

 

“Although Kenneth Good maintains that Baptists can be Calvinists (his book Are Baptists Calvinists?) without being Reformed (his book Are Baptists Reformed?), those of the Reformed persuasion disagree:

 

“It is our contention that a Reformed Baptist is really an impossibility. The Baptist who defends free will, man's initiative in the work of salvation, resistible grace, the altar call, the free and well-meaning offer of the gospel, etc., is the Baptist who is consistent. The Baptist who defends dispensationalism, in whatever form it takes, is the Baptist who consistently maintains his position. The Baptist, on the other hand, who maintains the doctrines of grace and repudiates dispensationalsim is inconsistent in his theology. I do not deny that he may, in his theology, be a Calvinist. I do not deny that he may truly repudiate dispensationalism. But he is guilty of a happy inconsistency for all that.196

 

Those who hold to the truth of infant baptism have generally maintained that the ideas of believers' baptism and sovereign grace are mutually exclusive, and that those who hold to these two positions hold a contradictory view of salvation.197

 

One cannot be a Presbyterian or Reformed without being a Calvinist, but one can certainly be a Baptist. A Calvinistic Baptist should be a misnomer, because, in the words of the Dutch Reformed Herman Hanko: "A Baptist is only inconsistently a Calvinist."198

 

196. Herman Hanko, We and Our Children (Grand Rapids: Reformed Free Publishing Association, 1988), p. 11.

197. Hanko, Covenant of Grace, p. 2.

198. Hanko, We and Our Children, p. 12.

 

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The opening post is nonesense. I know some reformed Baptists who are dispensationalists, quite a number actually.

I have known people who call themselves Baptist who are Calvinist and that Calvinism has led them into replacement theology, so by your own reasoning, your post is nonsense.......

Just because you "know some" doesn't make the OP nonsense.

And to Jeff - yes Calvin is far more that tulip - he has all sorts of false doctrines in his commentary series, not just tulip.

And his false teaching has led many to hell. Edited by DaveW
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And to Jeff - yes Calvin is far more that tulip - he has all sorts of false doctrines in his commentary series, not just tulip.

And his false teaching has led many to hell.

And what are those teachings? please.

Edited by Jeffrey
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I answered this before once. See: .

I'm glad to share my opinion, but let's try to avoid any promotion or defense of Calvinism, eh?

 

 

I have known people who call themselves Baptist who are Calvinist and that Calvinism has led them into replacement theology, so by your own reasoning, your post is nonsense.......

Just because you "know some" doesn't make the OP nonsense.

And to Jeff - yes Calvin is far more that tulip - he has all sorts of false doctrines in his commentary series, not just tulip.

And his false teaching has led many to hell.

 

 

And what are those teachings? please.

 

Trying again to promote Calvin's teachings. 

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And what are those teachings? please.

See heading of thread........

But you already know - that's why you are here after all - to promote the doctrines you follow in spite of this being a forum that is not in agreement with those doctrines.

You are not really that stupid, but you seem to think we are......

The overwhelming majority of reformed theologians I have met or known are disingenuous about their motives. Edited by DaveW
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No invicta, my OP is not nonsense.  It is an accurate description of what Calvinism believes and teaches---Covenant/Reformed Theology, which is actually Replacement Theology.  Laurence Vance wrote an excellent book on Calvinism, "The Other Side of Calvinism" and I have found a portion of that 800 page book online.  That portion is called "Calvinism and the Baptists".

I will now contribute to this thread.

 

The best way to learn about Reformed Baptists is to study the 1689 Baptist confession. 

 

I did submit a question for Herman Hanko to answer. I got a "politicians answer". Thanks for your question. It gives me an opportunity to make MY point..... 

 

The prOBlem on both sides is developing logic from a position - A is true, therefore B is true, Etc.

 

No! Our logic MUST be constrained by Scripture. I am happy to be happily inconsistent as a "Reformed Baptist" taking Scripture as my sole authority. 

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