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Dorightchristians - King James Onlyism Before Peter Ruckman


Dr James Ach

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That's an interesting point.

 

Interestingly enough, by not using "me", though, it proves His divinity because He says He will answer.  And only God answers, right?  

 

It needs to be taken in context of the whole chapter - and other verses on prayer.  Watchtower is just like any other cult - take a verse here or there to "prove" what they believe.  As you well know, even some Christians do that.  But we aren't supposed to. Scripture dovetails and there are so many passages on prayer that, when taken together, we know that we are to pray to the Father through the Son - and God will answer.

 

I realize that cults can lead people astray by using one verse in a certain manner (heh - as do too many Christians today, too!) but that doesn't negate the truth of the KJB (and I know you didn't say that...).   :icon_smile:

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That's the biggie, yes.  (I don't want to derail the thread, though...)

 

That's what I thought.  I think I know what other things you are talking about, as well.  However, I won't get into them.

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Hence, this is the prOBlem u have with these people who feel that the 1611 is better than the originals. It puts the translation as an idol and people worship it, rather than God our Savior.
Saw this on another forum;
apparently the KJV agrees with the Watch Tower Society

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. ESV

John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NASB

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. HCSB


you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

 
Jeffrey, what "originals" are you talking about?  There are no originals with the KJV.  The Old Testament of the KJV comes from the Hebrew Masoretic Text (which in Hebrew, is flawless).  The New Testament of the KJV comes from the Textus Receptus (TR), not the corrupted Alexandrian Texts.  All Modern Versions come from the Alexandrian Texts.

So, now we are back to talking about the validity of the KJV on a KJVO forum?  I thought those days were gone.   :puzzled3:  I will say it again.  This reminds me of the days of Kevin Miller, and "His Purpose Driven Life" book by Rick Warren.  And, we can all see how that one turned out.  Chrislam?  Seriously, Jeffrey? 

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Jeffrey, what "originals" are you talking about?  There are no originals with the KJV.  The Old Testament of the KJV comes from the Hebrew Masoretic Text (which in Hebrew, is flawless).  The New Testament of the KJV comes from the Textus Receptus (TR), not the corrupted Alexandrian Texts.  All Modern Versions come from the Alexandrian Texts.

So, now we are back to talking about the validity of the KJV on a KJVO forum?  I thought those days were gone.   :puzzled3:  I will say it again.  This reminds me of the days of Kevin Miller, and "His Purpose Driven Life" book by Rick Warren.  And, we can all see how that one turned out.  Chrislam?  Seriously, Jeffrey? 

candle, there will always be people who question everything we believe - even whether or not the KJB is THE scripture for English speaking people.  

 

But, to be honest, Jeffery has a point (in the statement about some people correcting the originals).  There are people out there (and on here!) who believe that the KJB corrects the Greek, thus rendering the Textus Receptus to be inferior (whether they want to think so or not) to the KJB and allowing them to correct the Receptus by "reading between the lines" - which brings about some pretty strange teachings!

 

We learn oftentimes by discussing. If Jeffery begins to bash the KJB he'll be stopped, rest assured (I realize he said there was a mistake in John 14:14, but that is what we're discussing...and it won't go any further.  :icon_smile: )

 

I don't get your reference to Crislam, though...

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candle, there will always be people who question everything we believe - even whether or not the KJB is THE scripture for English speaking people.  

 

But, to be honest, Jeffery has a point (in the statement about some people correcting the originals).  There are people out there (and on here!) who believe that the KJB corrects the Greek, thus rendering the Textus Receptus to be inferior (whether they want to think so or not) to the KJB and allowing them to correct the Receptus by "reading between the lines" - which brings about some pretty strange teachings!

 

We learn oftentimes by discussing. If Jeffery begins to bash the KJB he'll be stopped, rest assured (I realize he said there was a mistake in John 14:14, but that is what we're discussing...and it won't go any further.  :icon_smile: )

 

I don't get your reference to Crislam, though...

 

Yes, I know HC.  I meet them on Facebook all the time.  That is the main reason why I am not posting on there, as much.  I forgot to say that the KJV is for the English speaking people.  Thanks for saying that.

Yes, he does have a point.  I do see some of the strange teachings, when people "read between the lines" from IFB's, as well.  Please correct me if I ever do that.  I am still learning, and I do appreciate your knowledge... as you have been IFB longer than me.

Jeffrey and I are on good terms.  He is my brother in Christ.  I just wish he would go back to the IFB.  He is very strong, and I believe the IFB needs more people like Jeffrey.  Believe me when I say, if I can go from the RCC straight to the IFB (with a bit charismatic teaching along the way, that assured me of my salvation) then anyone can.   

I must not have read what he said in John 14:14.  Ooops.

Yes, we all need to beware of Chrislam or is it spelled "Crislam?" 

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It appears that some folks on this forum still miss the point of the KJB "correcting" the originals.

 

It doubt anyone (I could be wrong because I don't read anything these folks write anyway) actually believes the 1611 KJB is more accurate than the directly inspired originals provided by God to Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles, etc.

 

The missed points are twofold: #1 Noone living has ever seen nor read an "original" text in hebrew or greek. These are copies of copies or rewrites times a multitude from the actual "originals".

 

#2. Noone who thinks they understand the greek to read these copies of copies has any true clue to what the ancient greek meanings actually were. They only have loose guesses of modern greek translations they attempt to apply.

 

It still amazes me to see men quote the "greek copy of copies" with their modern quessicon translations with authority, as if they know they are right- it is sadly laughable to me.

 

The real point is this folks. Do you have God's complete Word in the KJB or not. This is simply a matter of faith.  And without faith it is impossible to please Him. And without His Word we would have never heard of Him. So your faith better FIRST be in His Word or you have have no faith.

 

think about it.

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CL and Luanne,
Just to clarify, I am not anti- KJV, I more or less have a prOBlem with Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipps of the world. If a brother/sister in Christ wants to use the KJV, great! I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)
Out if the 7 Bibles I own at home, 4 of them are KJ, a Scofield, an Open BibLe,Thompson chain reference and a huuuuge Bible that was given to us on my wife's and I wedding day.
I also own an NIV, ESV and a NLT. At our church we corporately use an ESV, which my old IFB church switched to a few years before I left.

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Sorry, wretched - I went to school near PBI and had to deal with a number of the students...AND family members who were taught and believed the double inspiration doctrine.  I know what they say - about reading between the lines and correcting the Greek. False doctrines and some really egregious ideas have come from it.

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CL and Luanne,
Just to clarify, I am not anti- KJV, I more or less have a prOBlem with Peter Ruckman, Sam Gipps of the world. If a brother/sister in Christ wants to use the KJV, great! I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)
Out if the 7 Bibles I own at home, 4 of them are KJ, a Scofield, an Open BibLe,Thompson chain reference and a huuuuge Bible that was given to us on my wife's and I wedding day.
I also own an NIV, ESV and a NLT. At our church we corporately use an ESV, which my old IFB church switched to a few years before I left.

 

That's alright if you have a prOBlem with Ruckman and Gipp, Jeffrey.  Lots of people in the JKVO camp do, as well.

Augustine came out of the RCC and is a heretic.  If you would like to no more about his teachings, please let me know as you are aware that I was a former RC.

I see no prOBlem with owning various Bibles, if you want to compare them to one another, however, if you believe in the "Rapture" then I wouldn't have them around the house, for others to use after the "catching away" of born again believers occur.  While the Great Tribulation will be a time for the Jews, there will still be Tribulation saints, as well.  I wouldn't leave MV's in my house, but that is just me.

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Hence, this is the prOBlem u have with these people who feel that the 1611 is better than the originals. It puts the translation as an idol and people worship it, rather than God our Savior.
Saw this on another forum;
apparently the KJV agrees with the Watch Tower Society

John 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. KJV

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. NIV

John 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. ESV

John 14:14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. NASB

John 14:14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. HCSB


you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

http://av1611.com/KJBp/charts/themagicmarker.html

ill leave that for you, although I'm sure you've seen it already. Ill stick with the KJB.

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LuAnne said:

"I don't get your reference to Crislam, though..."

___________________

 

Sorry, I misread this HC.  My reference to Chrislam is that Rick Warren put together the book, "A Purpose Driven Life."  That book included all Bibles in it.  It was a whole variety of MV's rolled into one book.  In regards to Chrislam?  Muslims are always telling Christians that one of the reasons they don't believe in Christianity is b/c of the variety of Bibles we have.  Rick Warren's promotion of his book added to this.  He is encouraging Christians to make peace with Muslims.  Somehow, I think his book had something to do with him promoting Chrislam.  I could see that coming a mile away.

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you notice what is missing in the KJV?

All translations have their issues

 

Jeffrey, I know that I've been antagonistic toward you, but I hope that you will believe me when I say that I'm writing this without any antagonism whatsoever.

 

You do understand that the other versions are translated from entirely different manuscripts than the King James is translated from, don't you. That's why "me" is missing in that verse, and that's why there are so many other discrepancies when comparing new versions to the King James. The underlying manuscripts are different.

 

If you believe that all translations have their issues, then how can you believe that we have God's word today? If they all have their issues, how do you know what to believe? Why are you even a Christian if you can't trust that what's written in the Bible is true? How can you trust any part that's written if you believe they all have issues; how do you know that the parts that you feel don't have issues just haven't been shown to be issues yet?

 

Luanne, seriously, do you see the mistake in the KJV compared ti the other translations? I'll let you look at it before I point it out

 

Here, you attribute a missing word as a mistake, because it's not in the other versions. Again, the underlying manuscripts that the King James is translated from doesn't have it; therefore, it's not a mistake. The prOBlem is, which stream of manuscripts are you relying on? Are you relying on the stream of manuscripts that were hidden away by false religious systems for hundreds of years until two men (who didn't even believe the Bible was God's inspired word) used them to make a new Greek text? Two men who didn't hold to basic foundational doctrines of Christianity? Or, are you going to rely on the stream of manuscripts that were the basis for all Bibles (outside of false religious systems) prior to and including the King James...the manuscripts that true Christianity accepted as the word of God.

 

I also believe that other translations are profitable. That's why I have Augustine's quote in my signature.( BTW . I found that quote in the transcription of the translators of the KJB)

 

I actually wondered if that's where you got the comment for your signature from.  There's a lot in the King James translator's preface that makes me cringe. But unlike Westcott and Hort, they gave us a formal equivalence translation from the accepted manuscripts. Just because Augustine (who was a heretic as candlelight pointed out) thought comparing translations was good (as did the King James translators), that doesn't mean it's true.

 

I had determined not to respond to you anymore because of your doctrine; however, I felt compelled to respond to this.

 

I don't mean this harshly, but by your own admission, you believe that we don't have God's preserved and inspired word today since all translations have their issues; therefore, I can't (in good conscience) converse with someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe God...I'm commanded in God's word to avoid you; therefore, that's what I must do...

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