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Original Sin And Pelagianism


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The onus is on you, I asked you to be specific in what you disagree with Calvin's doctrine.
As for the OP, that would be covered under the T in tulip, mans totally depravity because of Adam's, which we inherited from him


I gave you a perfectly serviceable answer.
And about as acceptable to a Calvinist as any other answer I might give. ;)
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2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  

John 15:16, a favorite Calvinist proof text, says nothing about Christ choosing them for salvation, it says He chose them as SERVANTS and from henceforth friends. It says Christ ordained them to go an

Now answer this about 2 Peter 3, if God knows who the elect are WHY WOULD HE BE CONCERNED ABOUT THEM PERISHING?? If this was only the elect, there would be no need for God to have any long suffering a

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I believe some of the stuff that Calvin believed and some of the stuff that reformed folk today believe, for example the doctrine of the trinity. But so what?

 

Catholics believe the trinity, prOBably the most trinitarian of all.  

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Dave W.Not fair! I've used up all my likes and can't like anymore! Perfect responses I LIKE all of yours! Turn it right back around like you know they would if you took the bait! 

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I gave you a perfectly serviceable answer.
And about as acceptable to a Calvinist as any other answer I might give. ;)

so, you don't have an answer. In my experience in the IFB, that was typical to separate from something you totally know nothing about

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so, you don't have an answer. In my experience in the IFB, that was typical to separate from something you totally know nothing about

I have plenty of answers, but in my experience you don't want them - no Calvinist I have ever met actually wants answers - they want to twist words and argue.

 

They learned it from their mentor (Calvin), who learned it from his father.

Joh_8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 
Edited by DaveW
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Calvin didnt kill Servetus, he didnt have the authority in Geneva to that kind of thing if he wanted to, heresy was a capital punishment in Geneva at the time and Servetus was tried by the the magisterial council of Geneva

I have an article on my website where we address this very pathetic excuse of John Calvin (that he "didn't have authority") 

Calvinists Defense of John Calvin on the Michael Servetus Ordeal

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The onus is on you, I asked you to be specific in what you disagree with Calvin's doctrine.
As for the OP, that would be covered under the T in tulip, mans totally depravity because of Adam's, which we inherited from him

The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity is not merely that man inherited a sin nature under the federal headship of Adam, but that man is totally UNABLE to respond to the gospel, hear the voice of God, unless he was elected and determined to be saved. Calvinists attempt to persuade people to accept Total Depravity by default by tricking them into thinking that a denial of total inability is a denial of total depravity, and since most believers believe that we all inherited our sin nature from Adam somehow, the believer that doesn't know any better swallows depravity hook, line and sinker because he doesn't know what the Calvinist REALLY believes about Total Depravity.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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so, you don't have an answer. In my experience in the IFB, that was typical to separate from something you totally know nothing about

I'll give you the BIGGEST prOBlem that Calvinism has that proves that Calvinism makes God the author of sin regardless of whether their Dortian or Westminster Confession says so or not.

*Calvinists believe that God from the foundation of the world decreed all that will be saved (some believe that all were predetermined for heaven or hell, or that God simply "passed over" the non elect in a passive manner, depending on whether you are infra or supralapsarian, which really, there is no difference).

*In order for God to determine an 'elect', to redeem, there had to be something to redeem them FROM

 

*Thus in order to redeem them FROM something, and from someone, there had to be another group of non elect who were also sinful. No sinners, no need for redemption and no difference between the elect and non elect because neither would have a sin nature.

 

THE CONUNDRUM

Adam COULD HAVE chosen not to sin if you believe that Adam was initially created with free will (of every tree in the garden you MAY FREELY EAT). BUT, if Adam choose to NOT SIN, then what happens to God's decree? God messed up and decreed something that Adam interfered with by failing to sin (and the Westminster Confession eliminates God choosing any based on His "foresight").

 

Thus if God truly elected ANYONE to salvation before the foundation of the world, when He COULD HAVE elected everyone, not only does that mean God WANTED to damn someone making Him sadistic, but it also means HE HAD TO GUARANTEE THAT ADAM WOULD SIN IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE HIS ELECTION CAME TO PASS. 

This makes God the author and creator of sin no matter which way any Calvinist tries to spin it, ,and the biggest prOBlem that the Calvinist has is their view of the nature of God.

Edited by Dr James Ach
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...besides, Servetus isn't the only person Calvin had a hand in putting to death murdering.

 

Oh yeah........ more than a few, at his command.

 

I wouldn't want to be a disOBedient child in his town........

 

And I am still waiting for any Calvinist to show me a vaguely passable salvation testimony of Calvin.

 

When I mention that point - as I did earlier - it is an open invitation for any man who has record of such a testimony to post it.

 

I have looked - I did a whole series on "The church Fathers" a few years ago, and the main thing I did was look for evidence of salvation in their writings.

I never did find such evidence for Calvin.

 

Plenty of evidence of other stuff - not good stuff - but no salvation testimony.

Edited by DaveW
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Oh yeah........ more than a few, at his command.

 

I wouldn't want to be a disOBedient child in his town........

 

And I am still waiting for any Calvinist to show me a vaguely passable salvation testimony of Calvin.

 

When I mention that point - as I did earlier - it is an open invitation for any man who has record of such a testimony to post it.

 

I have looked - I did a whole series on "The church Fathers" a few years ago, and the main thing I did was look for evidence of salvation in their writings.

I never did find such evidence for Calvin.

 

Plenty of evidence of other stuff - not good stuff - but no salvation testimony.

 

Was he baptized as an infant? We know that he pushed infant baptism, and I've often wondered if he was baptized as an infant...and if he was, is that what he thought made him a Christian. 

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Was he baptized as an infant? We know that he pushed infant baptism, and I've often wondered if he was baptized as an infant...and if he was, is that what he thought made him a Christian.


Catholic before he left - studied for the priesthood after he studied law.

I assume he was Catholic baptized, but never found anything about his own baptism or salvation.
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Thus if God truly elected ANYONE to salvation before the foundation of the world, when He COULD HAVE elected everyone, not only does that mean God WANTED to damn someone making Him sadistic, but it also means HE HAD TO GUARANTEE THAT ADAM WOULD SIN IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE HIS ELECTION CAME TO PASS. 

This makes God the author and creator of sin no matter which way any Calvinist tries to spin it, ,and the biggest prOBlem that the Calvinist has is their view of the nature of God.

 

 

 


Actually, I believe you have the wrong view of God. Because God is holy and righteous,we are all worthy of hell.. think about that, but because God gave us a gift (Eph 2:8,9) something we dont deserve, reached down and saved whom He chose

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

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Good catch on Rev 3:20. I know some pastors and evangelists who kind of have a pet peeve with Christians wrongly using that verse out of context. This especially as they point out the many verses specific to the preaching of the Gospel.

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The Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity is not merely that man inherited a sin nature under the federal headship of Adam, but that man is totally UNABLE to respond to the gospel, hear the voice of God, unless he was elected and determined to be saved. Calvinists attempt to persuade people to accept Total Depravity by default by tricking them into thinking that a denial of total inability is a denial of total depravity, and since most believers believe that we all inherited our sin nature from Adam somehow, the believer that doesn't know any better swallows depravity hook, line and sinker because he doesn't know what the Calvinist REALLY believes about Total Depravity.

so you decided one day that you wanted a relationship with God and asked Jesus into your heart?

can you explain John 15:16, Matt 11:27, John 6:44?

I do have more in case you think I am just going through a few verses

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so you decided one day that you wanted a relationship with God and asked Jesus into your heart?

can you explain John 15:16, Matt 11:27, John 6:44?

I do have more in case you think I am just going through a few verses

 

Not me. I became a believer when I actually 'heard' the Gospel, and it made sense! Jesus Christ is God in human form, and paid my sin debt on the cross.

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Not me. I became a believer when I actually 'heard' the Gospel, and it made sense! Jesus Christ is God in human form, and paid my sin debt on the cross.

pretty much the same here.
I actually just started reading "Institutes", Im only in chapter 5, He is writing about God the creator and how God has put the impression of Himself in all of mankind

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Here are verses proving that man has free-will apart from any influence from God...

 

Jeremiah 19:1-5
1   Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests;
2   And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee,
3   And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.
4   Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
5   They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

 

Jeremiah 32:28-35
28   Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, and into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and he shall take it:
29   And the Chaldeans, that fight against this city, shall come and set fire on this city, and burn it with the houses, upon whose roofs they have offered incense unto Baal, and poured out drink offerings unto other gods, to provoke me to anger.
30   For the children of Israel and the children of Judah have only done evil before me from their youth: for the children of Israel have only provoked me to anger with the work of their hands, saith the LORD.
31   For this city hath been to me as a provocation of mine anger and of my fury from the day that they built it even unto this day; that I should remove it from before my face,
32   Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
33   And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
34   But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
35   And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

Hosea 1:1 and 8:4
The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of JerOBoam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

 

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

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1 Timothy 4:10-11
10   For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11   These things command and teach.

 

Does Calvinism command and teach this? No; therefore, they are in direct disOBedience to God's word.

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    • Alan

      Happy Birthday John Young! God Bless! 🍰
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    • KJV ME!

      Now it is time for me to step out of my shell and let go... I AM STRICT KJV!... In scripture God said he would preserve his word... Well did he or didn't he?... If there is every translation under the sun, then he didn't but I KNOW HE DID!... The preserved word of God called the KJV is for the English people has been around for over 400 years and what is interesting to me, is the KJV was translated in 1611 and the Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock in 1620... Coincidence?... A new book the preserved KJV word of God for the New World... So take that you KJV naysayers... I have been reading, studying and digging through the KJV for over 50 years... My belief is 100% Christ and scripture says so... Glad to be here and its time to take these shackles off!   
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      I am... Brother Ramsey
       
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