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So Where Was Baptism For Salvation In The Ot?


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I did not say that Faith was not active in any age, economy or dispensation.  I said that Faith, Works and God's Grace worked in different ways at different times.  They were all active at all times, just in different manners of application.

 

I don't remember anywhere in Exodus through Duet that Moses had faith in the finished work of Christ/Messiah to Moses he was called a prophet like unto himself. Moses did not know anything other than God would raise up a prophet like him to lead Israel.  While Moses knew that he did not know who Jesus Christ was until after his death when he met him face to face when Jesus went into hell and preached unto the prisoners. 

 

Moses's faith was in the word/promise of God generally and in God specifically.

 

If you don't mind I will trust Paul's opinions over yours - HE said Moses had faith in Christ.

 

And the Body of Christ is the church.

Col_1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 
 

If you don't rightly divide the scriptures then you will blend them all and their doctrines and to whom they apply.

 

I can't force you to learn this or accept this but it is a truth. 

 

The divisions of Gen-Acts 7, Acts 12-Philemon, Hebrews through Rev 19, Rev 19-Rev21 are four simple divisions of scripture and they are to different people at different times.  that does not mean we can t use them or apply  them it just means doctrinally there is application that is not for us.

 

ALL scripture is for the Body of Christ but not not all of it applies to the body of Christ.

 

 

And if you do a quick study of "church" or even look at the short explanation I recently posted about the church - you will see that the church is only specifically local, never universal.
 
The majority of references to the body in relation to a group of believers is clearly talking about the local church - and as the with the church there are some which are vague, but NONE that speak of the body specifically as all believers to the exclusion of the local church.
 
And you still use the "rightly dividing" phrase amiss.
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Heb 12:22-26
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth:but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Now, ye are come, in the writer's day, to the Heavenly assembly.

Eph 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:20
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Eph 2:6
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Verb tenses are important.


Anishinaabe

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swath said:
 

 

"I know you know more about the Popery than me, I think that part was meant for someone else.  You can click a "Like This" again to unlike it; unless there's a time period to do so?"

__________________________________

LOL.  Yeah, just a little bit.   ;)  I know what you are saying.  I should have adjusted my first post to read, "that as a former RC, this is never taught to the people."  There is so much brainwashing going on, that the precious RC's can't see the truth.  And, the RC's that are not devout are too afraid to leave the RCC for fear of persecution from family and friends, or they are in the words of one of my first cousins, "in limbo" and are closed off to what scripture says.  Also, many are agnostic or atheist.  *sigh*

You got a free "like", brother.  :-)

:hijacked:  Can someone explain, via PM how to copy just one section of a post?  I know how to copy if someone is posting to me, however, I need a little help with how to post when multiple replies are made.  Thanks in advance:)  

 

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First I never implied that Baptism was for Salvation in the OT.

 

I stated that it was a requirement under the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was never preached in the OT, it was only preached by John the Bapt, Jesus, and the 12 & the 70(72) disciples in the NT and it was only preached to Israel.

.

 

I responded to this in post >#33 to which you never responded. I asked for you to respond again in #70, but still no answer.Instead you come out with the following post:

 

If you don't rightly divide the scriptures then you will blend them all and their doctrines and to whom they apply.

 

I can't force you to learn this or accept this but it is a truth. 

 

Your statement: "If you don't rightly divide the scriptures then you will blend them all and their doctrines and to whom they apply" is indeed true, but I suspect it may be you that is not "rightly dividing" and doing the "blending ... doctrines".

 

But hey,  I can't force you to learn this or accept this. I can't even get you to reply to my post.

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I guess I was incorrect as Moses would have known Christ before Christ going to hell for he stood with him on the mount.

 

Moses may have only known his as the Lord of Host prior to his earthly visit.

 

So at the time of the promise historically Moses knew nothing more than the God.

 

DAVEW

 

If you say he knew Christ as Jesus then you make the body that came through Mary an eternal body he possessed in time past prior to his earthly birth there is a bigger prOBlem than my saying he did not know.  for you would be saying Christ possessed the body of Jesus before his birth.

 

Now I do realize the Author of Hebrews Says, Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

 

If you are implying that before the Exodus that Moses knew Christ the Messiah you are in error.  The Author is showing a comparative not proving he knew Jesus Christ at Exodus 2 that is not true.  It was the reproach that he knew not Christ himself.

 

If I am wrong please provide a scripture that says, " HE said Moses had faith in Christ"  Hebrews does not say that.  Hebrews is talking about faith but not faith in Christ but the reproach of Christ.  That reproach was about serving God above oneself or the World.

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I responded to this in post >#33 to which you never responded. I asked for you to respond again in #70, but still no answer.Instead you come out with the following post:

 

 

Your statement: "If you don't rightly divide the scriptures then you will blend them all and their doctrines and to whom they apply" is indeed true, but I suspect it may be you that is not "rightly dividing" and doing the "blending ... doctrines".

 

But hey,  I can't force you to learn this or accept this. I can't even get you to reply to my post.

what!!?  No I am not blending anything.

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what!!?  No I am not blending anything.

 

And yet you still refuse to answer my scripturally correct post #33 which responds to your insistence that Baptism was a requirement under the Gospel of the Kingdom, preached by John the Bapt, Jesus, and the 12 & the 70(72) disciples in the NT.

 

Okay, maybe you don't blend. Maybe you just ignore the scripture that doesn't line up with what you want to believe.

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And yet you still refuse to answer my scripturally correct post #33 which responds to your insistence that Baptism was a requirement under the Gospel of the Kingdom, preached by John the Bapt, Jesus, and the 12 & the 70(72) disciples in the NT.

 

Okay, maybe you don't blend. Maybe you just ignore the scripture that doesn't line up with what you want to believe.

why don't you show where it was not a requirement.

 

I show what John and Jesus taught and baptism was part of the gospel of the Kingdom.  Go back and read those scriptures again.

 

But it is clear what was passed on to Peter and he clearly stated prior to the gospel of the Grace of God,  The asked "what shall we do?"  WORKS and peter answered Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.  it was required for those who believe the gospel of the Kingdom and it is the same on Peter is preaching here.

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why don't you show where it was not a requirement.

 

It was not given as a requirement in Matthew 10, John 4, John 11 or for the thief on the cross as I showed and referenced multiple times. 

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Fist off, forgive me for spelling mistakes as I am using a glasses off program to improve my vision and it requires while I am using it not to where any glasses.  So I can't see the keybaord that well and my typing skills are a bit lacking.

 

So,

 

Which church would it be if Jesus has not gone to the cross yet?

 

So here is Jesus Building a church and it is pre-cross so what church was he building?

 

It is the church of the first born which is Israel also known as the church in the wilderness  This church is not currently being built.  What is being built today is the BODY OF CHRIST, which is called the Church.  Once the BODY OF CHRIST has been gathered into the clouds to Jesus, then dealing and building the church of the wilderness/the church of the first born will be taken up again under the Gospel of the kingdom.

 

Today, we are blessed not because we keep his commandments or do baptisms or repentance, but because of the work of Jesus Christ (this does not mean you will not get a blessing if your do, it just means you don't earn anything by works today).  under Law and the gospel of the Kingdom one must keep commandments and do works to get a blessing of God.

 

You can argue all you want, if you don't see that it is because you are not OBserving the text.

 

Jesus didn't say he was building  He said I will build.

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AVBB'

 

Heb 11:24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 
Heb 11:25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 
Heb 11:26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 
 
 
Make what you will of it - Paul says Moses knew about CHRIST.
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Galatians 3:11-12
11   But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith1.
12   And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
 
1The section of verse 11 that I highlighted is a quote from the Old Testament (Habakkuk 2:4)...and the opening statement of verse 12 makes it clear that the law had nothing to do with faith. Therefore, the Old Testament taught/teaches that justification came through faith alone without the works of the law.
 
Peter understood that those from the Old Testament couldn't keep the law...
 
Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 
Paul understood that those from the Old Testament couldn't keep the law...
 
Romans 9:31-33
31   But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33   As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 
Verse 33 is also a quote (actually a combined quote of two verses) from the Old Testament (Isaiah 8:14 and 28:16)...the Old Testament taught/teaches justification by faith alone.
 
Don't stumble at the stumblingstone.
 
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AVBB'

 

Heb 11:24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 
Heb 11:25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 
Heb 11:26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 
 
 
Make what you will of it - Paul says Moses knew about CHRIST.

 

I explained it already quite clearly, it is the reproach the author of Hebrews is speaking of do you not understand what the reproach of Christ was and is?

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............

 

If you are implying that before the Exodus that Moses knew Christ the Messiah you are in error.  The Author is showing a comparative not proving he knew Jesus Christ at Exodus 2 that is not true.  It was the reproach that he knew not Christ himself.

 

If I am wrong please provide a scripture that says, " HE said Moses had faith in Christ"  Hebrews does not say that.  Hebrews is talking about faith but not faith in Christ but the reproach of Christ.  That reproach was about serving God above oneself or the World.

 

 

But Paul quite clearly says "of Christ" not "of God: - why would he use this particular word?

 

And if you read the phrase you want to, you end up the same place anyway.

"Esteeming the reproach of Christ" - He esteemed serving CHRIST as better than the riches of the world.

 

To serve Christ in accordance with the will of God you must have faith in CHRIST - it is specific in that is is regarding CHRIST, not just God.

It is in reference to the specific part of the Godhead that is Jesus Christ.

 

You can not get around this point - Paul is saying that Moses knew about and served the Christ. Not just God, but specifically Christ.

 

Again, I choose to align myself with Paul, who spoke these words under the direction and influence of the Holy Spirit.

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Some other verses I came across during my morning study that pertain to this topic:

 

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

These verses clearly tell us that a Jews hope (and the hope of salvation) was not in the works of the law (such as circumcision) but was a condition of the HEART, IN THE SPIRIT. If your heart is not right, no amount of works will get you anywhere. There is nothing man could ever do. ALL the praise has always gone to God. 

 

Consider the account of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18.

 

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

The Pharisees had all the “i”s dotted and “t”s crossed, and still he was not justified, whereas the publican had a truly repentant heart and walked away justified over the Pharisee. No works, no baptism.

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But Paul quite clearly says "of Christ" not "of God: - why would he use this particular word?

 

And if you read the phrase you want to, you end up the same place anyway.

"Esteeming the reproach of Christ" - He esteemed serving CHRIST as better than the riches of the world.

 

To serve Christ in accordance with the will of God you must have faith in CHRIST - it is specific in that is is regarding CHRIST, not just God.

It is in reference to the specific part of the Godhead that is Jesus Christ.

 

You can not get around this point - Paul is saying that Moses knew about and served the Christ. Not just God, but specifically Christ.

 

Again, I choose to align myself with Paul, who spoke these words under the direction and influence of the Holy Spirit.

This is one of those places you may need Greek to help you understand.  it is the suffering of Christ not the faith in Christ the Author is speaking of.  You are also reading into the text you interpretation "he knew" the suffering not Jesus.

 

And how do you prove Paul Wrote Hebrews and why?

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This is one of those places you may need Greek to help you understand.  it is the suffering of Christ not the faith in Christ the Author is speaking of.  You are also reading into the text you interpretation "he knew" the suffering not Jesus.

 

And how do you prove Paul Wrote Hebrews and why?

It doesn't matter whether it was Paul or not - the book is inspired of God.

 

You can not get away from the fact that it is relation to Christ specifically - not just to God.

The author of Hebrews relates Moses choice to the Christ.

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It doesn't matter whether it was Paul or not - the book is inspired of God.

 

You can not get away from the fact that it is relation to Christ specifically - not just to God.

The author of Hebrews relates Moses choice to the Christ.

 

If you both would listen for a sec. Whether it was speaking of God or Jesus Christ, what diff does it make? They are both one.

So you both win. :clapping:

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