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So Where Was Baptism For Salvation In The Ot?


Covenanter

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First I never implied that Baptism was for Salvation in the OT.

 

Anyone who says I said that or I suggested that baptism was necessary in the OT or makes it seem I did is a LIAR

 

I stated that it was a requirement under the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was never preached in the OT, it was only preached by John the Bapt, Jesus, and the 12 & the 70(72) disciples in the NT and it was only preached to Israel.

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Why make something so simple into something hard. Baptism is an identifying act that a born again believer does that publically associates them with Christ. It is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of the old man. The more beautiful side of this is illustrated in Jewish marriage customs. When a woman is betrothed (engaged) to a man she goes into a deep pool, completely immerses and washes herself, and puts on new clothes as promise to stay pure until the marriage. When you're saved you accept the offer to be the bride of Christ. How beautiful a picture.

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If the sprinkling of water brings about salvation then I'm renting a fire truck and headed downtown.   :nuts:

Better yet is everyone that got caught in a thunderstorm now saved??? Laughable really

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If the sprinkling of water brings about salvation then I'm renting a fire truck and headed downtown.   :nuts:

Better yet is everyone that got caught in a thunderstorm now saved??? Laughable really

There were steps to the gospel of the kingdom and they were like this 1) believe, 2) repent and 3) get baptized in water (no Holy Ghost given yet) for the remission of sins. Matt 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, 7, John 3, 4

 

Under the gospel of Grace, water baptism was never required.  However, if a person wishes to be water baptized it is to be done, it is identification that they have believed on Christ's finished work of the cross for their forgiveness of sins and are saved by God's grace through faith alone.  Today the Holy Ghost spiritually Baptizes each believer into Christ the moment they believed. 1Co 12:12-14 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.   For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.   For the body is not one member, but many.

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There were steps to the gospel of the kingdom and they were like this 1) believe, 2) repent and 3) get baptized in water (no Holy Ghost given yet) for the remission of sins. Matt 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, 7, John 3, 4

 

Under the gospel of Grace, water baptism was never required.  However, if a person wishes to be water baptized it is to be done, it is identification that they have believed on Christ's finished work of the cross for their forgiveness of sins and are saved by God's grace through faith alone.  Today the Holy Ghost spiritually Baptizes each believer into Christ the moment they believed. 1Co 12:12-14 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.   For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.   For the body is not one member, but many.

 

Do you know the Biblical definition of 'remission'?

It is not forgiveness.

As in cancer, remission means it is not gone but it dwindles down to being powerless to affect the body.

Remission in the new believer, and on til death, it is the putting away of sins, the believer choosing to sin less on purpose, because of his new desire to live for God.

First there is repentance, and the after effect of that is remission, and that is what baptism shows to all watching the one being baptized. They have died to their former

persons desire to live in sin, and chosen to follow Gods ways and choose not to sin on purpose. John told the soldiers and pharisees what they were to do 

before he would agree to baptize them.

 

Look at Lukes wording in Acts 2:38, he was a physician, he would know what remission was. 

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Do you know the Biblical definition of 'remission'?

It is not forgiveness.

As in cancer, remission means it is not gone but it dwindles down to being powerless to affect the body.

Remission in the new believer, and on til death, it is the putting away of sins, the believer choosing to sin less on purpose, because of his new desire to live for God.

First there is repentance, and the after effect of that is remission, and that is what baptism shows to all watching the one being baptized. They have died to their former

persons desire to live in sin, and chosen to follow Gods ways and choose not to sin on purpose. John told the soldiers and pharisees what they were to do 

before he would baptize them.

You are so correct remission of sins does not mean forgiveness of sins but a temporary setting aside, so if they kept themselves clean and without sin and OBeyed the word of God until judgement day they would receive forgiveness (remember that was before the cross).

 

John the Baptist gave them no requirement BEFORE he would baptize them, you must be reading into the Words of God a preconceived idea, because the text does not say that he told them to do this before he would baptize them.  Luke 3:12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

No where in the text does it say that he as telling them what to do to be baptized.  they were there to be baptized and many of them were, they asked a question along with their baptism.

 

Now I have been fully forgiven for my sins, there was no remission of them but full forgiveness without any water baptism Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:  I am redeemed and forgiven forever and ever.  And the only baptism I needed for that was  1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

The life I now live I live just as when I first got save BY faith in Christs finished work of the cross.  And that forgiveness covers ALL my sins including any I may have committed in the past as well as today or will commit tomorrow.  

Rom 4:7 [saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
 Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
 Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

Baptism was never a sign I would live a sinless life nor would I have been baptized for that reason I know that I would sin and then baptism for that reason would be no good.

 

I was baptised as Christ was, for Identification.  He Identified with man in his water baptism and I identify with him in mine.

 

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You are so correct remission of sins does not mean forgiveness of sins but a temporary setting aside, so if they kept themselves clean and without sin and OBeyed the word of God until judgement day they would receive forgiveness (remember that was before the cross).

 

John the Baptist gave them no requirement BEFORE he would baptize them, you must be reading into the Words of God a preconceived idea, because the text does not say that he told them to do this before he would baptize them.  Luke 3:12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

No where in the text does it say that he as telling them what to do to be baptized.  they were there to be baptized and many of them were, they asked a question along with their baptism.

 

Now I have been fully forgiven for my sins, there was no remission of them but full forgiveness without any water baptism Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:  I am redeemed and forgiven forever and ever.  And the only baptism I needed for that was  1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

The life I now live I live just as when I first got save BY faith in Christs finished work of the cross.  And that forgiveness covers ALL my sins including any I may have committed in the past as well as today or will commit tomorrow.  

Rom 4:7 [saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
 Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
 Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

Baptism was never a sign I would live a sinless life nor would I have been baptized for that reason I know that I would sin and then baptism for that reason would be no good.

 

I was baptised as Christ was, for Identification.  He Identified with man in his water baptism and I identify with him in mine.

 

 

??

"Then said he to the people that came out to be baptized of him..." Luke 3:7 which continues to verse 10 which says, "Then the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?"

 

I did not make it up. Did I?

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Also, It was not right for covenanter to cut off the list of scriptures about baptism under the Gospel of the Kingdom and just leave the one about the son of Zacharia where it referred to the OT ordinance of the Nazarite.  In doing so he makes it seem that I suggested that there was required baptism in the OT something I never alluded to or said.

 

the additional scriptures did in fact follow a rhyme and reason of thought that was quite clear.  so leaving them out makes it as thought"It's not easy to follow AVBB's thinking".  At the least he should have put a link to the original post so you could be sure he point on my thinking was not easy to follow was true, of which it wasn't true.

 

My thinking was clear and to the point in the partially quoted quote and it could have been seen if Covenanter was being truthful concerning the original post and he wasn't.

 

If you make baptisms and washings the same you will run into huge prOBlems and that is where the landmark brider baptist have gone into their teaching that baptism is not for the Body of Christ during the church Age.

 

Covenanter please list each answer for your questions you asked.  You already have your own answers for them.  List them out and let others see what you are talking about because it is hard to follow your thinking unless you put in your answers.

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??

"Then said he to the people that came out to be baptized of him..." Luke 3:7 which continues to verse 10 which says, "Then the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?"

 

I did not make it up. Did I?

no, but you are messing with grammatical structure.  It may continue but is was not about them doing it before he baptized them.  It was something in addition to their being baptized because the gospel of the Kingdom was a work based salvation process as was all salvatin under the economy of Law.

 

It is like a question some new believers will ask, "now that I am saved how should I live"?  these were baptized and they were asking what should I do and he told them.

 

But it was not something they were do do before he baptized them.

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Avbb does this website explain the theology you are subscribing to?

http://doctrine.org/the-gospel-of-the-kingdom/

Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

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There were steps to the gospel of the kingdom and they were like this 1) believe, 2) repent and 3) get baptized in water (no Holy Ghost given yet) for the remission of sins.

 

It will be a hard sell to bring me to believe that Baptism was a requirement “under the Gospel of the Kingdom” as “preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 & the 70(72) disciples in the NT” because the whole Bible is all about salvation through faith and faith only.

 

If baptism was a requirement, why did Jesus not tell the twelve to baptize when he sent them out in Matthew 10? He told them to preach, heal, cleanse and cast out devils, but not a word about baptizing.

 

Look at John 11:23-27

 

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

 

Again, not a word that baptism was required, only faith in Jesus.

 

In John 4 where Jesus talks to the woman at the well the end result is:

 

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

 

Again, no mention of baptism; only faith, in keeping with the message of the rest of the Bible.

 

We could also turn to the thief on the cross. What saved him ("no Holy Ghost given yet")? Faith only, without baptism.

 

What of all those who may have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, but were unable to get baptized for whatever reason outside their control? Were they doomed?

 

Hebrews 11 informs us the all those living during the OT were saved by faith. The Gospel of Grace tells us all after the cross were saved by faith. Are we to believe that this span of perhaps 5 years or so (I don’t know how long John actually preached) is the only time in Biblical history that requires baptism?

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Why make something so simple into something hard. Baptism is an identifying act that a born again believer does that publically associates them with Christ. It is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of the old man. The more beautiful side of this is illustrated in Jewish marriage customs. When a woman is betrothed (engaged) to a man she goes into a deep pool, completely immerses and washes herself, and puts on new clothes as promise to stay pure until the marriage. When you're saved you accept the offer to be the bride of Christ. How beautiful a picture.

 

Amen, paid4!

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no, but you are messing with grammatical structure.  It may continue but is was not about them doing it before he baptized them.  It was something in addition to their being baptized because the gospel of the Kingdom was a work based salvation process as was all salvatin under the economy of Law.

 

It is like a question some new believers will ask, "now that I am saved how should I live"?  these were baptized and they were asking what should I do and he told them.

 

But it was not something they were do do before he baptized them.

 

This is where people really mess up on understanding.

We are to hearken to the words of God. Hear to know.

Reading helps our mind to hear and produces knowledge that sticks in it.

 

The subject with this section of Luke says the people came to be baptized, and were not yet.

It is very clear on it's own merit.

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If the law ended with John, then why the need for Christ to fulfill the law? I do believe that more clarification is given for the scripture that you quoted in Matthew...

 

Matthew 11:12-13
12   And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13   For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
 
God used John to prepare the people for their Messiah who would fulfill what was written in the law, prophets, and psalms concerning him. It wasn't until Jesus' death that the veil in the temple was rent.

 

 

I'm not sure we disagree here.  Are you saying that the dispensation of the law didn't end when those verses say it did or am I missing something?    

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This is where people really mess up on understanding.

We are to hearken to the words of God. Hear to know.

Reading helps our mind to hear and produces knowledge that sticks in it.

Now I could have misunderstood if you are speaking about chronological time order. then yes he could have told them what to do before baptizing them. 

 

But the way you worded it an bold the letters you may it look as if he would not baptize them until they did that which he was instructing them.  the latter is an addition to scripture IMO.

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If you want to see how God did things in the OT read Chapter three f Jonah.

 

A man of God was sent to preach God Word, the people heard and believed, repented in sackcloth and ashes, God saw their Works and did not destroy them.  If they would have continued in that all the days of their life at the GW judgement they would receive eternal life.

 

What we see here is faith, works and then the grace of God is applied.  In this case God does not destroy the city.  you see it says "God saw their works"  this was the result of their faith/belief in the word of God that was preached. No baptism in water any where that I can see.

 

Jonah 3:1 ¶ And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
 3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
 4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
 5 ¶ So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
 6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his rOBe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
 7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nOBles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
 10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

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True salvation is contingent upon repentance. If you are not repentant then you do not really believe in God and/or His rightful place in your life. The people of Nineveh accepted Jonah's message and were repentant. The sackcloth and ashes was an outward showing of their repentance, much like baptism is an outward showing of our spiritual death, burial and resurrection. Bottom line. God saw their faith. God saw their true repentance. He saw their heart. The works were a natural manifestation of that heart condition.

 

Consider Isaiah 1. Works mean nothing without faith. Without faith you can not be saved. With faith, the works naturally follow.

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Now I could have misunderstood if you are speaking about chronological time order. then yes he could have told them what to do before baptizing them. 

 

But the way you worded it an bold the letters you may it look as if he would not baptize them until they did that which he was instructing them.  the latter is an addition to scripture IMO.

 

The 'layout' of the text of Luke 3 is the ultimate revealing of the same facts in the other Gospels.

And if you compare them to Luke 3, they make more sense.

 

Luke had a more detailed account of John's baptism.

Luke explains John's ministry clearer, and does not state that he baptized until after he preached these things to the people (verse 21).

 

In verse 3 it only says he preached of the baptism, not performed it.

Then he warned the people to bring proof (fruits) of their repentance to show they had truly repented, that was the part they were 'confessing' in the other gospels.

And he said this so they would not consider the fact that they were 'children' of Abraham, when it came to being 'worthy' of the baptism.

 

Then he details what the Lord was going to do, eventually. (verses 8,9)

 

After being warned they then asked him what they should do, implying here, basing my comment on the proof of the text,

they were concerned on 'how' they would 'bring forth fruit', so they could be properly baptized.

 

Then the publicans and soldiers followed suit.

 

Then he 'preached unto them Jesus', yes not by name as yet, but that's why he was here, to lead people to Jesus. (verses 16, 17)

 

In verse 18 says he then took 'to preachin' the message God had, for them to believe 'enough' to repent/change their ways.

 

Luke does not even mention the 'act' of baptizing, only mentioning that 'and it came to pass' that the people, and Jesus were. (verse 21 again)

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