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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

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It is relevant because it shows what's really at the heart of the issue.

 

If we're having a discussion about the Biblical support for a given position/doctrine, then it isn't relevant. But yeah, maybe you're right in that we're not actually having those discussions on here, even though sometimes we appear to be. Guess that was Calvary's overall point.

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I am just an ignorant old man who (from all I read in the bible) am saved and know that the Lord will take me home one day.  The fact that it will be this day or another day does not really enter into my thinking.  I see no reason to damage my relationship with another fellow believer over it.

 

Why must we find it necessary to believe that another must share our view on this subject?  Is it because we think that unless we straighten them out they are headed for hell fire? 

 

What is it?  I just don't understand?  :(

 

God bless,

Larry

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I am just an ignorant old man who (from all I read in the bible) am saved and know that the Lord will take me home one day.  The fact that it will be this day or another day does not really enter into my thinking.  I see no reason to damage my relationship with another fellow believer over it.

 

Why must we find it necessary to believe that another must share our view on this subject?  Is it because we think that unless we straighten them out they are headed for hell fire? 

 

What is it?  I just don't understand?  :(

 

God bless,

Larry

And I would generally agree with you here. I began this post because, due to my position on this, my identity as an IFB, and in some ways, I believe, even as a Christian have been brought into doubt, and I have been accussed of being many things which I am not. I started it just to show how I came about this position, (Which I have not fully put out as yet, just because of time). BUt I didn't put it out here to start contention or anger or accusations. The bottom line is, the Lord will come for His when He does. I would be pleased to be wrong, because if I am alive when this all begins, I would sorely like to miss out on it all. My wife and I were talking about it yesterday and we agreed that SOMEONE is going to be surprised-if I am wrong, I will be pleasantly surprised. But if I am right, then a lot of people are going to be unpleasantly surprised, and prOBably shocked, appalled and full of doubt. Maybe that's why the Jesus asks, in Luke 18:8,  "Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, will He find faith on the earth?" I suspect that if all those who hold to a pre-trib rapture should find themselves unmistakably in the middle of the tribulation, they might just suffer some trials of their faith. Many truly believe they deserve to me taken away from it. It will be hard on them if I am right, and they are wrong.

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I am just an ignorant old man who (from all I read in the bible) am saved and know that the Lord will take me home one day. The fact that it will be this day or another day does not really enter into my thinking. I see no reason to damage my relationship with another fellow believer over it.

Why must we find it necessary to believe that another must share our view on this subject? Is it because we think that unless we straighten them out they are headed for hell fire?

What is it? I just don't understand? :(

God bless,
Larry

If I am wrong, and the Resurrection & Reaping happens before the Great Tribulation....I will have a pleasant surprise.

If a pretribber is wrong, their surprise will leave them almost completely unprepared for the Great Tribulation, and will be most unpleasant.

We both believe the "Falling away" and the Revelation of the Man of Sin occur, prior to and at the kickoff of the Great Tribulation.

Some of us believe that the reinception of Dispensational, Calvinistic ( never went away, I know), and Pretrib doctrine are leading to the falling away.

Certainly LOST people can't fall away, they were never there.

I believe it is the true churches that are falling away.

How many of us know of many children who have grown up IFB, who are unbelievers, or content to dwell among the Emergents?

Where I come from, it is upwards of
90% of IFB kids, will never darken the doorway of an IFB church, again, after reaching adulthood.

Improper Eschatology is not the sole reason for the falling away.
But, if we are truly nearing the end, then surely God is calling those who are truly following Him out from the falling away.

1Th 5:1-11
Chapter 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sOBer.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sOBer, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Don't forget to comfort one another with the truth that we will not be overtaken as a thief in the night....only those who are not watching will be surprised.

Anishinaabe

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If I am wrong, and the Resurrection & Reaping happens before the Great Tribulation....I will have a pleasant surprise.

If a pretribber is wrong, their surprise will leave them almost completely unprepared for the Great Tribulation, and will be most unpleasant.

We both believe the "Falling away" and the Revelation of the Man of Sin occur, prior to and at the kickoff of the Great Tribulation.

Some of us believe that the reinception of Dispensational, Calvinistic ( never went away, I know), and Pretrib doctrine are leading to the falling away.

Certainly LOST people can't fall away, they were never there.

I believe it is the true churches that are falling away.

How many of us know of many children who have grown up IFB, who are unbelievers, or content to dwell among the Emergents?

Where I come from, it is upwards of
90% of IFB kids, will never darken the doorway of an IFB church, again, after reaching adulthood.

Improper Eschatology is not the sole reason for the falling away.
But, if we are truly nearing the end, then surely God is calling those who are truly following Him out from the falling away.

1Th 5:1-11
Chapter 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day:we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sOBer.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sOBer, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Don't forget to comfort one another with the truth that we will not be overtaken as a thief in the night....only those who are not watching will be surprised.

Anishinaabe

 

This is untrue of my family, prophet.  Both my husband and I are survivalists.  In fact, before I was saved, survival is all I knew how to do.  Survival comes naturally to my husband and I, and his parents taught him survival skills growing up.  My parents taught me, as well, as they were products of the Great Depression.  We have taught our 23 year old son, what we know.  We are farmers at heart.   :)

In a year 1 1/2 my husband and I will be moving to the hills outside of Marietta, in the southeastern part of OH - one hour outside of Pittsburgh, PA.  BTW, when I say hills, I mean it.   ;)  IFB friends of ours are missionaries, and need our help to continue building the church they planted 4 years ago.  His nephew and their oldest son are the pastor and assistant pastor of the church now.  Our missionary friends were missionaries to Scotland and Europe, for many years.  They raised their 4 children in Scotland.  The two youngest girls were also born in Scotland.  They planted 4 IFB churches that are thriving there.  They are now raising support across the USA, and Canada, b/c when they planted the church in WV, they lost the support support of 12 IFB churches in the USA.  Unfortunately, many IFB churches would rather support foreign missionaries, rather than missionaries in the USA, where we need them most.  

My husband and I will get out the gospel and work physically on a building for a church located in OH.  He has found his calling. The church is WV is not actually a church.  It is a senior's center.  As you know, country folk are very down to earth.  They are also very generous people, as a whole.  Their church is growing.  

We are looking forward to moving to the country, where my husband will take his business, build a shop, and have Pastor Jim's oldest son work as an apprentice for my husband.  My husband apprenticed for a bit and worked for 16 years in an auto restoration shop until starting his business, in a warehouse he rents in a seedy part of Cleveland, OH.  He has been in business for himself since 2003.  He is in auto restoration, mainly restoring classic cars, and doing other restoration work.  We are excited to make a move like this.  We are buying property and building a pre-fab home on it along with his building.  We plan on storing needed items in the warehouse for survival.  We will stockpile, just like we do now.  However, there will be more of it.  You prOBably know the drill on that.  When we are persecuted, we will also have a better place to hide, unlike where we are now.  The land down there also sits on gas and oil reserves.  We will own the mineral rights.

Two times a year, we will also travel to Scotland to help them build the next church there.  This will be a new and exciting adventure for us.  We are looking forward to it. 

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Those who have no clue to events in the Middle East and especially Israel are "asleep"

The "sticking point" in the U.S. led "negotians" is always Jerusalem (and the Temple Mount).

The fact that all the priests have been trained, all the priests' garments made,

all the implements made and even the construction materials to erect a "holy place &

most holy place" (in 3 days, using current technology), should sound an alarm for

any Spirit-filled Christian on the Planet.  There is a very simple "two state solution",

except for the disposition of Jerusalem (think "Berlin" following WWII).  Time is short.

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Pilgrim,

It does make a difference what you believe.  If we take your position, then how does a Pastor lead his congregation in matters of doctrine?  Paul showed the Ephesians "the WHOLE counsel of God, which includes eschatology.  I don't think the Lord set us adrift to guess at this stuff.  I Believe the Bible is crystal clear on it, as does the other side of this discussion.  That is why we debate it. 

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Brother, I agree it is doctrinally speaking of the kingdom gospel but there is no reason it cannot be spiritually applied to the church preaching the gospel of the grace of God. 

This is why right division is needed between Israel and the church, and then which church the Israel church or the Body of Christ church (they are different).  then between OT completion of God's scattering of Israel and bringing her back in to be at peace forever (never took place yet even after they came back as prophesied by Jeremiah and others).  Today Israel is set aside but when the body of Christ is gathered together with Christ in the clouds then Israel wont be set aside anymore.  then God will scatter them (that is why they are back in the land since 1948) and then he will come establish the kingdom (rev19) and call for the regathering of Israel into her land (OT prophets all spoke of this) where Israel shall serve God for ever from Jerusalem.    right division is a key to rightly understanding OT and NT prophecy.  the lack of division willblenditalltogether so you can't rightly understand and cause division on men over pre/post/a Millennial stands.

 

Right division leave you to only one conclusion the right one and the one held by Paul and the early church pre-trib/pre-wrath removal of the body of Christ and God finishing his work with Israel and unbelieving mankind.

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If I am wrong, and the Resurrection & Reaping happens before the Great Tribulation..

the gathering of the saints takes place the days or hours before before the son of perdition reveals himself.  and that Starts the Great Tribulation. the body of Christ bodies are raised in perfection.  The resurrection of those bodies is not the first or the second resurrection nor is it the resurrection of the last days.

 

The reaping of Revelation 14:13-20 is not a reaping of saved it is the reaping of unsaved living beings that will be thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath, this will take place near the end of the Great Tribulation. 

 

The First Resurrection is at the end of the Great tribulation Rev 20:1-5 (could be the resurrection of the last day).  the second resurrection if at the GWT Judgement Rev 20:11-15 (could be the resurrection of the last day, I think this one is it) 1,000 years after the first one.  this is where we get the term Millennial but the kingdom goes on into eternity.

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the gathering of the saints takes place the days or hours before before the son of perdition reveals himself. and that Starts the Great Tribulation. the body of Christ bodies are raised in perfection. The resurrection of those bodies is not the first or the second resurrection nor is it the resurrection of the last days.

The reaping of Revelation 14:13-20 is not a reaping of saved it is the reaping of unsaved living beings that will be thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath, this will take place near the end of the Great Tribulation.

The First Resurrection is at the end of the Great tribulation Rev 20:1-5 (could be the resurrection of the last day). the second resurrection if at the GWT Judgement Rev 20:11-15 (could be the resurrection of the last day, I think this one is it) 1,000 years after the first one. this is where we get the term Millennial but the kingdom goes on into eternity.

You are wrong:

2Th 2:1-3
Chapter 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

"That day shall not come, except..."

This is a definite timeline.
If definitely puts the "Gathering in the clouds" after the revelation of the Man of Sin.



Anishinaabe

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the gathering of the saints takes place the days or hours before before the son of perdition reveals himself. and that Starts the Great Tribulation. the body of Christ bodies are raised in perfection. The resurrection of those bodies is not the first or the second resurrection nor is it the resurrection of the last days.

The reaping of Revelation 14:13-20 is not a reaping of saved it is the reaping of unsaved living beings that will be thrown into the winepress of Gods wrath, this will take place near the end of the Great Tribulation.

The First Resurrection is at the end of the Great tribulation Rev 20:1-5 (could be the resurrection of the last day). the second resurrection if at the GWT Judgement Rev 20:11-15 (could be the resurrection of the last day, I think this one is it) 1,000 years after the first one. this is where we get the term Millennial but the kingdom goes on into eternity.

There are 2 reapings here:

Rev 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap:for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And here:

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, nice try, but you are still wrong.

Anishinaabe

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Wow.  I've not read through all of this, but quite honestly, I don't bother myself with end times theology.  Christ has died.  Christ has risen.  Christ will come again.  All else is just conjecture about what will likely happen long after we have passed from this earth. It is nothing to get worked up over.  :-)  What will come will come.  We have no control and no input into the matter.  All we can control is ourselves and our attitudes. 

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Get right or get left! 

 

We are told in Scriptures to always "be ready" because the Lord's coming for us in the Rapture (catching up) is imminent. 

 

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sOBerly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

Being "ready" for the Lord's coming should provoke us to live godly.

 

The apostle John said:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

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There are 2 reapings here:

Rev 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap:for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And here:

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, nice try, but you are still wrong.

Anishinaabe

Don't bother-I have tried to lay it out clearly, but many still insist that what Jesus does is reap, though leaving them there on earth, and somehow, then, the angel comes and gathers that which has been reaped, from the vine of the earth, (you don't reap grapes),  and casts them into the winepress of wrath. It makes no sense but it makes people feel better.

 

One reaping, which INCLUDES gathering, of a crop, and one gathering from a vine.

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Mike

There is more than one "rapture."  That is where the "confusion" comes in, but only when we fail to "rightly divide."  The raptures spoken of in the Gospels have nothing to do with the rapture of the church spoken of in I Thess. 4:13-18 - they are two separate events.

The reaping performed by the Lord in Revelation 14 is a "rapture" of the Tribulation saints, caught out just prior to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  There is in fact a "pre-wrath" rapture - but that rapture is not the church, but Tribulation saints.

 

In Christ,

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Pilgrim

The Bible is about more than ONLY salvation.  Salvation is a part of the Bible, but not the main subject of the Bible.  Think of it this way - the Bible ends in Revelation, not in the Gospel of John.  There is a lot of doctrine between John and Revelation, and we are to be students of those doctrines. 

And where does Revelation end, at the Cross? or with an eternal kingdom? 

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Pilgrim,

It does make a difference what you believe.  If we take your position, then how does a Pastor lead his congregation in matters of doctrine?  Paul showed the Ephesians "the WHOLE counsel of God, which includes eschatology.  I don't think the Lord set us adrift to guess at this stuff.  I Believe the Bible is crystal clear on it, as does the other side of this discussion.  That is why we debate it. 

 

What is discussed here is not bible doctrine, but personal interpretation.  I was taught this interpretation when I was in the Brethren for many years.  

 

The last Brethren preacher I heard was about 4 years ago.  A really nice christian who died shortly after.  My wife and I still visit his disabled wife when we can and take her CDs of our services.

 

On the last occasion, he said that when Jesus returned as in Acts 1, he would only be coming to the Jews, as Jesus was only speaking to Jews.  Wrong.  He was speaking to the apostles who were the leaders of the church.  

 

We read in some of these posts that Matthew 24 was only regarding Jews as Jesus was speaking only to Jews,  Again wrong.  He was speaking to those he called to be the leaders of the church.

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Pilgrim

The Bible is about more than ONLY salvation.  Salvation is a part of the Bible, but not the main subject of the Bible.  Think of it this way - the Bible ends in Revelation, not in the Gospel of John.  There is a lot of doctrine between John and Revelation, and we are to be students of those doctrines. 

And where does Revelation end, at the Cross? or with an eternal kingdom? 

True the bible is about far more than salvation.  But my point is this: Is the number one jOB of the Church to preach the gospel in order that sinners might be saved and equip those saved to do the same or is it to equip the saved to teach the rapture doctrine?  It seems to me that far too much time is spent on rapture and too little on salvation.  It also seems that the importance of teaching the rapture doctrine has become more important than believers being one in Christ.  It is splitting us apart at a time when we ought to be working together to  "Get the gospel out" and we ought to be "Putting the cookies down where the children can reach them."

 

God bless,

Larry

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      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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