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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power by God. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV,


(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 KJV


(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15 KJV



Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.


JOB 14:12-14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.

JOB 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Pe 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


JOB, Jesus and Peter agree.
That NO one rises until the Heavens depart as a scroll.

Resurrection is the physical body,
not the soul.

Saying that Jesus took the Souls of the Saints with Him to Heaven, has nothing to do with the bodily resurrection.


Anishinaabe

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power by God. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 KJV,


(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 KJV


(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15 KJV



Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.


JOB 14:12-14
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past,
that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.

JOB 19:25-27
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


Mat 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2Pe 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


JOB, Jesus and Peter agree.
That NO one rises until the Heavens depart as a scroll.

Resurrection is the physical body,
not the soul.

Saying that Jesus took the Souls of the Saints with Him to Heaven, has nothing to do with the bodily resurrection.


Anishinaabe

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I'm in basic agreement, Prophet, & contribute by my understanding.

Tribulation is for Saints. Wrath is for Unbelievers.

Generally true (e.g. 2 Thes. 1), but specifically the great trib of the Olivet prophecies is for Israel, not believers, who are told the signs & when to flee the doomed city.   

The best reason we have is Matthew 24.
All doctrine concerning The Second Coming should originate with Matthew 24.

Compare Mat. 24 with Mark 13 & Luke 21. Luke makes it very clear that the prophecy is of the destruction so I see no Biblical reason for making the prophecy concern the final coming of the Lord. All three emphasise that this generation (that rejected its Messiah) shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.   

Matthew 24 is a private conversation with Jesus' church, after telling the Jews, at the end of Matthew 23, that they wouldn't see Him again, until His Second Coming.

But he does warn of his coming to judge them & give the Kingdom to others:

Luke 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? 16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. 17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? 18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Jesus is specifically warning his hearers, NOT some future generation of Jews. And they understood. That took place in ad 70. He repeated that claim about them seeing him ascended - so they accused him of blasphemy. 

 

They ask Him, point blank, about the future, and He gives very direct answers.

He never mentions, to them, any pretrib blah, blah, blah.

Now, you can say He was talking to the Jews, but the end of Matthew 23 says you are wrong.

You can say they weren't His Church, but no one would say that 11 of those 12 were His church, 43 days later, so let's quit playing dispy games.

Quite right. All believers comprise Jesus' church - by whatever name they are called. Was there a church at Rome? Paul writes to: the called of Jesus Christ: to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. There is no great division between different groups of believers. "We" make & use our definitions, but they MUST be informed by Scripture.

In light of that, Daniel, Revelation, Corinthians, and Thes. all line up quite nicely with Matthew 24.

You can say what isn't mentioned on I Thes. 4, but it's just that, not a detailed account, but rather a comforting reminder.
Agreed

OBviously, IIThes. 2 was written to provide context, since IThes. freaked them out. It lines up with Matthew 24, as well.
2 Thes 1 clearly speaks of the great separation when Jesus returns to vindicate the believers & destroy the wicked with the eternal tribulation of hell. Before that, in 2Thes. 2, the falling away & temple destruction must occur as prophesied by Jesus in his Olivet prophecy. That was the great unfulfilled prophecy of Jesus' ministry, apart from his final coming, again spoken of in Matthew & John as essentially one event:

Mat. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Rev. 14 is similar wording, but I think in the pre-70 context, it refers to the deliverance of the Jewish believers from Jerusalem before the destruction by the Romans.

Bottom line...Jesus put the jelly on the bottom shelf in Matthew 24, and it is our plumb line.
So - we see the level & the vertical by two conflicting metaphores :)

 

Ian

Anishinaabe

 

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IThes. 4 doesn't have the word "church" in it, either. Every single chapter in the Scripture that doesn't say "the church" in it, is to Israel...by your definition. So these men were never in "the church"?

Was 1 Thessalonians 4 part of Paul's epistle to the CHURCH at Thessalonica? 

 

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

By your definition, there is no Israel!  By your definition, the Church is "spiritual" Israel. 

 

Every single chapter in Scripture, by your definition, that says "the church" you re-define as Israel.

 

You teach Replacement Theology...that the "church" has replaced Israel. The "church" claims all Israel's "blessings" but none of Israel's "curses".  You allegorize and spiritualize the majority (where it suits you) of Biblical prophecy in order to exclude Israel.

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Was 1 Thessalonians 4 part of Paul's epistle to the CHURCH at Thessalonica? 

 

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

By your definition, there is no Israel!  By your definition, the Church is "spiritual" Israel. 

 

Every single chapter in Scripture, by your definition, that says "the church" you re-define as Israel.

 

You teach Replacement Theology...that the "church" has replaced Israel. The "church" claims all Israel's "blessings" but none of Israel's "curses".  You allegorize and spiritualize the majority (where it suits you) of Biblical prophecy in order to exclude Israel.

We should seek to understand where others are coming from - that was a rhetorical comment of Prophet1.

 

We all agree that Paul's letters were written to churches, & that most of the NT churches comprised both Jews & Gentiles. We read them & take them to heart - ears to hear.  I presume that it was to avoid confusion that the term "church" was used to as a term for gatherings of Christ-believing Jews, as distinct from the synagogues. Paul carefully explains that all believers are to be considered children of Abraham, Jews, Israel, grafted into the olive tree.

 

Although many thousands of Jews, including priests, became Christians, they were, sadly, rejected by the Jews who rejected the Gospel of Jesus. Many of the generation that rejected its Messiah continued to rejected the Apostles & a division between "the church" & "Israel" was created by the Jewish unbelievers when they persecuted the Apostles. So they suffered the curses of which Moses, Malachi, John, & Peter warned (Deut. 18, Mal. 4, Mat. 3 & Acts 3)

 

The church so-called has vast numbers of unbelievers who are also under the curse. as are all who reject Jesus Christ, of every religion or none. 

 

I can't speak for everybody, but I think you will find that NONE of the contributors hold the view of "replacement theology" that is so abhorent & justifies persecution of the Jews. Israel is in no way excluded from the promises of God, but the promises are realised through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as again Paul makes clear in Romans 11 - 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief,

shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

All of us will rejoice at any turning of Jews & Israelis to Jesus. The Gospel call is to all men, everywhere.

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OKay, so, we can have a trump, which is admittedly the sound a trumpet makes, WITHOUT a trumpet? What did John say in Rev 4 about the voice? "and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me". Wow-no mention of a trump here. Guess no trumpet, just a voice As a trumpet, so we're prOBably speaking of volume, not quality. BUt this, then, makes your argument invalid, by your own admission, because no trump. And the Bible says it will be the trump of God. A trump needs a trumpet, but the voice of a trumpet, by your estimation, does not equal a trump, particularly when it is specifically said to be a voice, not a trumpet.

 

Context of Rev 4:1- "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter". This was a call to John to SEE what would be hereafter. This is not a rapture, any more than when Isaiah was brought to heaven, before the throne of God, or Ezekiel was brought to heaven before the throne of God. Like Isaiah and Ezekiel, it was to receive a message, a revelation from the mouth of God, to be passed on to the people of God.  Now might it have been a picture of the rapture? Perhaps. But really, I would more see the example of the two witnesses being brought up as possibly being the rapture, because they were dead, were resurrected and again, heard a voice that called them up. Though I believe, as with John, this was specifically for them, as a witness against the nations.

 

And seriously, I just don't see the point in arguing trump/trumpet-its a dumb, (yes I said it) argument, because to say this, that a trump, which is the sound a trumpet makes, will come without a trumpet, which trumps, is seriously twisting the plain meaning. A trumpet trumps. A trump emenates from a trumpet. I am seriously not seeing the prOBlem in understanding this. 

   As well, the coming of Christ for His redeemed is both said to the with the trump of God, AND that the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised. So, trump...trumpet, but present at the same event.

 

Going back to Rev 14. Really, now, there is disagreement that there are two different things here? The scripture is really very plain about that. I will reiterate.

 

One: "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

    Okay, Jesus' reaping completed. The Earth Was Reaped. He thrust in His sickle and the earth was reaped. Period.

 

Two: "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God "

   Second, different harvest completed. An angel with a sickle comes out of the temple, and then ANOTHER angel comes out and says to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth. He thrusts in his sickle, the vines are gathered and cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

 

See, in the first, we see a reaping. Jesus Christ is told to reap. B y the way, if you have done farming, you will know that reaping INCLUDES gathering, not just leaving it on the ground. That would be cutting, not reaping. So Jesus reaps His harvest.  THEN, an angel comes from the temple also wth a sickle, (which would not be needed, by the way, if Jesus hat merely cut and left His harvest lying on the ground the be gathered here.), ad the angel from the temple tells him to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth. Clearly this is something different from what Jesus had done. Grapes you gather, you don't reap, you cut the clusters of grapes from the vine, which were then thrown into a press to be made to wine. No cutting of the vines.

 

So, my question remains: If this isn't the rapture, what is it? What is the harvest of the earth that is ready for Jesus to gather them? How is this not seen clearly as representing the church, which was called, in Matthew, wheat, who, at the sound of a trumpet, will be reaped after the days of tribulation?

 

Yes, the beast will be judged before the nations, which will be before the believers. That's fine-no conflict here. If the events of Rev 14 are the rapture, as I believe, we must ask ourselves, how long does the wrath take, after which Jesus returns to judge the beast and nations? A day? A week? A month? A year? You haven't considered my reply on it-are the events in Heaven subject to time? God ceetainly isn't, and it would make sense then that, being in His presence, we won't be either. John is taken from a time 2,000 yhears past, and given to witness the events that as yet haven't occurred, so apparently, there is no binding of time there. So while to us the judgment may take thousands of years, to time here, what, a day is as a thousand years? And a thousand years as a day? We may experience what seems a great passing of time, virtually none may pass here on earth.

 

Basically from scripture, all we know is that it MUST occur, it would seem, before Jesus returns to earth to reign. So, as I said before, it coukd be taking place surrently as believers die and go to Heaven, or it could all be at once after the rapture, and may take no time at all by earth's reckoning. Again, not seeing the prOBlem.

 

We seem to run often on long-term assumptions: the judgment seat of Christ as a huge auditorium full of all belevers of all time, waiting their turn. That's not scirpture, and honestly, I would think maybe the Lord would be a bit more efficient than this. Why have people in heaven for 2000, 1000, 100 years, waiting around doing who-knows-what, and wait to judge them all at one time? Why not assume the Lord is wise enough to judge them as they come?  The only judgments that are clearly shown to occur at one time, are the GWT judgmet and the judgment of the nations. Once a believer dies, what's the wait? 

   And again, we are trying to put linear constraints on that which will prOBably NOT be subject to such. Again, assumptions is really what we are talking about in this subject-I have just chosen to stop assuming and study the Bible. NOTHING says we won't be present on earth during the tribulation period. Nothing. Assumption. NOWHERE di we see anything that looks vaguely like a catching up of the saints anywhere in scripture except Rev 14-assumption that it takes place at an unspecified time causes us to soundly reject that and try to fit other meanings to it, or ignore it altogether.  Assumption that Matt 25 is only speaking of Jews causes us to reject that this is the rapture AFTER the days of great tribulation, and thus, an actual second rapture/resurrection that is really only part of the first, must then be fit into our theology.  ,

 

Just an interesting note,(maybe to me only, but I like to share interesting stuff I come across):

 

As for the trumpet/trump idea, In 1 Corinthians 15, which is a great chapter to bring into this discussion, there is a verse that says in my Bible - "52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet; for the trumpet shall blow, and the dead shall be raised up incorruptible , and we shall be changed." [1560 Geneva Bible]

 

And the old bibles - Tyndale, Great, and Bishops all used the word 'trump' for the second word 'trumpet' - "for the trump shall blow" -  in each 'Bible'.

 

And Oxford and Merriam-Webster both say the word trump is a trumpet.

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And Oxford and Merriam-Webster both say the word trump is a trumpet.

There was a "trumpet" used by the Greeks in battle which was more like a megaphone and not a "musical instrument".

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was
as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Rev 4:1
 
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:10
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As a trumpet is used in different 'tunes' in the armed forces, I am sure this trumpet 'sound' will be completely recognizable by all believers, and will bring complete joy to our hearts.

1 Thess 4:13 bears looking into a bit.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and [ kai - indeed ], with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

In Revelation you have "talking trumpets" wherein the voice

of the angel is associated with the sound of a trumpet.

In the case of a Greek megaphone-trumpet, it would be

the equivalent of an amplifier & speakers of today. LOUD.

Just a "conjecture".

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I'm in basic agreement, Prophet, & contribute by my understanding.

Matthew 24 is central, because we know He was only talking to people who He would use to establish His Church, and not to the Leaders of the False Religion of Judaism.

Anishinaabe

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pastors that are so bold as to lie to their congregations about what God requires of them deserve no earthly rewards for their lies.

Hahahahhahaha can u beleive it??

 

Throw a brick down a dark alley and the dog you hit is the one who yelps.

 

Why would this miser even comment unless he´s guilty?

 

Why would you think I am speaking of you?

Wow, what pride.

 

 

hahahhahahahhahha you are a complete joke

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Hahahahhahaha can u beleive it??

 

Throw a brick down a dark alley and the dog you hit is the one who yelps.

 

Why would this miser even comment unless he´s guilty?

 

Why would you think I am speaking of you?

Wow, what pride.

 

 

hahahhahahahhahha you are a complete joke

 

Is there something going on that has nothing to do with this thread? I am confused. :coffee2: Coffee time!!

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I meet a lot of Christians that believe that Matthew 24 applies to them ("church").

 

And this gospel of the Kingdom must be preached in all the world for a witness, and then the end shall come.

 

We don't preach this gospel.  Peter preached this gospel to Israel.  Israelites will once again be preaching this in future.

 

I actually believe there will be a similar +/- 40 year transition period like the baptism of Jesus-70AD period.

 

 

Yes, and when Peter preached that gospel to the Jews, they became Christians.

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Hahahahhahaha can u beleive it??
 
Throw a brick down a dark alley and the dog you hit is the one who yelps.
 
Why would this miser even comment unless he´s guilty?
 
Why would you think I am speaking of you?
Wow, what pride.
 
 
hahahhahahahhahha you are a complete joke

just keep living the lie, Calvary. You ain't convincing to anyone but the simple-minded.
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Yes, and when Peter preached that gospel to the Jews, they became Christians.

 

Amen! And AMEN!!

 

By the way, no one mentioned if Christ was gonna have 2 wives. One bride Christian, another bride Jews?

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Amen! And AMEN!!

 

By the way, no one mentioned if Christ was gonna have 2 wives. One bride Christian, another bride Jews?

I am trying to remember the name of a learned disp who among other assertions on his Q & A site insisted that Israel is the wife of Jehovah, while the church is the bride of Christ ...

 

Found it -

 

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I am trying to remember the name of a learned disp who among other assertions on his Q & A site insisted that Israel is the wife of Jehovah, while the church is the bride of Christ ...

That sounds like quite the 'sci-fi' story! Wonder if they'll make a movie?  :coolsmiley:

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I am trying to remember the name of a learned disp who among other assertions on his Q & A site insisted that Israel is the wife of Jehovah, while the church is the bride of Christ ...

Found it -

THE WIFE OF JEHOVAH AND THE BRIDE OF CHRIST -By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum


If you are going to accuse someone, then maybe you should get your facts straight first.
This guy is not a dispensationalist like the guys here are promoting right now.
(And I certainly don't agree with him on everything.)
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If you are going to accuse someone, then maybe you should get your facts straight first.
This guy is not a dispensationalist like the guys here are promoting right now.
(And I certainly don't agree with him on everything.)

Sorry - I got my information from his website.

 

From Ariel Ministries Doctrinal Statement

 

 

The Dispensations

We believe that the dispensations are stewardships by which God administers His purpose on earth through man by varying responsibilities; that they are chronologically successive; that they are not ways of salvation nor different methods of the administration of the Covenant of Grace but are a test of man's submission to God based on progressive revelation; that they are a necessary view of Scripture based on literal interpretation, a consistent distinction of Israel and the Church, and that the ultimate purpose of God is His own glorification; that they are not different ways of salvation but in every dispensation the basis of salvation was always the blood of Christ, the means of salvation was always by grace through faith, the OBject of faith was always God, but the content of faith changed in different dispensations dependent upon progressive revelation.

- See more at: http://www.ariel.org/doctrinal-statement.htm#sthash.AA98vnwl.dpuf
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      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
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      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
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