Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

Recommended Posts

  • Members

Regardless of your perceived "direct revelation" (that's something I typically only hear from Charismatics and a few Pentecostals), it's the small handful of wrongly dividing dispensationalists who insist on separating the Word of God, warping its meaning and bringing confusion and chaos into the mix that are out of line with the Word of God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 389
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Members

Regardless of your perceived "direct revelation" (that's something I typically only hear from Charismatics and a few Pentecostals), it's the small handful of wrongly dividing dispensationalists who insist on separating the Word of God, warping its meaning and bringing confusion and chaos into the mix that are out of line with the Word of God.

So, you are saying that the Holy Spirit has no capacity to enlighten us or teach us? 

I do happen to know some IFB's who depend entirely upon the written Word of God

and depend entirely upon certain "teachers" for all their information and knowledge.

 

So, when I share how a certain verse seemed to "jump off the page" (so to speak),

you dismiss that as some sort of "Charismatic" or "Pentacostal" experience.

I'm very certain that the Devil would like for me to think that was the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I think the "prOBlem" we are seeing here on this thread is the lack of understanding, by

a few here, of  "Mid-Acts" Pauline Dispensationalism "Rightly Dividing" the Word of God.

 

Until that is understood, then you see all sorts of confusion of doctrine and remnants

of Catholic "Replacement Theology" to one degree or another.

 

I thank God that he brought me to this understanding by direct revelation on the eve of Nov. 16, 2010

as I was reading 1 Cor. 3:10 and confirmed by Romans 11:13, 1 Tim 2:7, and 2 Tim 1:11 (3 witnesses).

It soon followed that I met others (IFB) that looked at scripture with the same understanding and clarity.

 

I do not understand the reference of 1 Cor. 3:10, with relation to the other verses?

Explain please? (Hows that? I asked for clarity!) :clapping:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So, you are saying that the Holy Spirit has no capacity to enlighten us or teach us? 

I do happen to know some IFB's who depend entirely upon the written Word of God

and depend entirely upon certain "teachers" for all their information and knowledge.

 

So, when I share how a certain verse seemed to "jump off the page" (so to speak),

you dismiss that as some sort of "Charismatic" or "Pentacostal" experience.

I'm very certain that the Devil would like for me to think that was the case.

 

Just to ad to the discussion - I thought it sounded kinda 'different' when you said 'direct revelation' also. The Baptists I am familiar with would think that an 'odd' phrase to use, knowing that these are the last days and people would be believing every 'wind of doctrine'.

 

And to me, that sounded a little 'breezy'.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Sorry to "disappoint you", but I went to the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, (associated with J. Vernon McGee)

There were no corrupted versions of the Bible used at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles

The only other "versions" that I was aware of at that time was the (old) American Standard Version and the Revised Version ("reversed version"). 

I never even heard the mention of any "Geneva" Bible while at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles.

All my memorization of Scripture was in the King James, which the Holy Spirit uses to bring verses to my attention

to this very day, so I can find them on my hyper-linked on-line BLB.

 

Update on BIOLA, the one Bro. Beameup graduated from, way back then, has responded to my email on their preference of Bible versions:

 

"Russ,
 

For our students at Talbot School of Theology, we actually recommend looking at the original text in both Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  In regards to current translations, the NAS version typically has a word-for-word translation of the original text and is often recommended by many of our faculty members.  Hope that helps.  Blessings."

 

The above is a copy and paste of their email to me.

Is this what happens to colleges that teach dispensations?

Something to ponder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Update on BIOLA, the one Bro. Beameup graduated from, way back then, has responded to my email on their preference of Bible versions:

 

"Russ,
 

For our students at Talbot School of Theology, we actually recommend looking at the original text in both Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  In regards to current translations, the NAS version typically has a word-for-word translation of the original text and is often recommended by many of our faculty members.  Hope that helps.  Blessings."

 

The above is a copy and paste of their email to me.

Is this what happens to colleges that teach dispensations?

Something to ponder.

 

Does "Talbot Theological Seminary" sound like "Bible Institute of Los Angeles"? 

 

He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.  Prov 10:18
 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.  Prov 13:16
It is as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.  Prov 10:23
 
 
 
Only official statements of faith from the Bible Institute of Los Angeles during the early 1960s qualify. 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Baptism was not practiced in the OT.

sorry my phone messed up the quotes. However, your comment that Matthew through acts 7 was to Israel only answers a lot of questions about your theological stance(s). specifically baptism being essential... pretty scary. anyway, that's quite off topic. ciao. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So, you are saying that the Holy Spirit has no capacity to enlighten us or teach us? 

I do happen to know some IFB's who depend entirely upon the written Word of God

and depend entirely upon certain "teachers" for all their information and knowledge.

 

So, when I share how a certain verse seemed to "jump off the page" (so to speak),

you dismiss that as some sort of "Charismatic" or "Pentacostal" experience.

I'm very certain that the Devil would like for me to think that was the case.

I expect we all get that sort of experience as we read or listen. We suddenly realise, "THAT's what it means" or "That's a direction for me." In no way is it "some sort of "Charismatic" or "Pentacostal" experience."

 

e.g. As a baptised & confirmed Anglican, I never thought about being baptised as a believer, until a baptismal service was announced in the Independent church I was attending. Or, I heard Heb. 7 read, & immediately I knew that Melchizedek was a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus. Or I read Heb. 12, & realise that Paul is referring to the prophesied destruction - the removal of the temple & carnal ordinances - confirmed by the Olivet prophecies, 2 Thes. 2, Rev. 11.

 

But I do not expect you all to be convinced by my Holy Ghost experience - we need to go on reading, as Bereans.

 

It's not quite off topic - Holy Ghost enlightenment is one reason for changing our position, whether pre-trib or whatever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Indeed, we can't understand the Word without the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost opens our understanding.

 

The term "direct revelation" is typically not used in regards to the Holy Ghost enlightening the Word, but rather in terms of being told of something special or new.

 

The reason so many Bible "scholars" can spend their entire lives in the Bible and yet see it as any more than literature or have wrong understandings of so much of the Bible is because they are lost and without the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

 

At the same time, the reason a poorly educated saved person can spend time in the Word and know what it says is through the Holy Ghost opening their understanding.

 

We must be careful to pray for wisdom as well for there are many false spirits out there seeking to deceive us, as well as our own flesh that doesn't desire the ways of the Lord.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Update on BIOLA, the one Bro. Beameup graduated from, way back then, has responded to my email on their preference of Bible versions:

 

"Russ,
 

For our students at Talbot School of Theology, we actually recommend looking at the original text in both Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.  In regards to current translations, the NAS version typically has a word-for-word translation of the original text and is often recommended by many of our faculty members.  Hope that helps.  Blessings."

 

The above is a copy and paste of their email to me.

Is this what happens to colleges that teach dispensations?

Something to ponder.

 

Uh.. this is the theological part of the BIOLA college. It is the same college you went to. All searches I did came up with this school as being one and the same, they just added a new name.

Articles about BIOLA did mention J. Vernon McGee as one of its 'teachers' and 'chairs'. Look it up.

I got on their official website, and clicked the 'contact us' icon, and this is who answered.

 

No real slam to you since this is 'modern' churchianity schooling. I do not put any stock in it at all, because they don't really know what they are talking about anymore.

This was, though, a good outcome of the search.

They do still teach dispensationalism. 

 

I am done talking about your schooling, and I regret bringing it up, but it does bring up an interesting thought: what about our modern christian colleges teaching dispensationalism? (what a word to spell!)

And them using perversions to teach it as fact?

 

And do they ever teach the opposite in the colleges? You know, what some irreverently call Catholic Replacement Theology? Wow, me Catholic? Is that not a slam?

 

By the way, I believe a saved person can read the word of God, and being led by the Spirit of God, can safely come up with the belief that I have, and others.

So just because someone calls what we believe 'Catholic' does no real damage to us as believers in the true gospel.

I didn't need others to quantify my ideology to support 'what' I 'made up in my mind' was in fact true.

Truth needs no 'Doctors' of the law to teach it, only a willing heart to accept 'what God hath said'!

 

Accepting Gods word at what it says, will not lead into error, as some falsely do teach, (that is true Catholic teaching, remember? They said men would lead into error if the bishops and priests didn't handle the word of God and tell the people what God said.)

 

That is what the Catholic church did. Stopped the free flow of God leading mankind through his word. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

So, Geneva, have you decided to bait and egg instead of discuss? Rhetorical question..no answer needed. Put a stop to the egging...now.

Sorry. Added an 'edit'.

I do find it disturbing though, and meant the 'egging' to mean - 'bring out more discussion on this phrase'. Not 'egging' in a rude or disrespectful manner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Uh.. this is the theological part of the BIOLA college. It is the same college you went to. All searches I did came up with this school as being one and the same, they just added a new name.
Articles about BIOLA did mention J. Vernon McGee as one of its 'teachers' and 'chairs'. Look it up.
I got on their official website, and clicked the 'contact us' icon, and this is who answered.

No real slam to you since this is 'modern' churchianity schooling. I do not put any stock in it at all, because they don't really know what they are talking about anymore.
This was, though, a good outcome of the search.
They do still teach dispensationalism.

I am done talking about your schooling, and I regret bringing it up, but it does bring up an interesting thought: what about our modern christian colleges teaching dispensationalism? (what a word to spell!)
And them using perversions to teach it as fact?

And do they ever teach the opposite in the colleges? You know, what some irreverently call Catholic Replacement Theology? Wow, me Catholic? Is that not a slam?

By the way, I believe a saved person can read the word of God, and being led by the Spirit of God, can safely come up with the belief that I have, and others.
So just because someone calls what we believe 'Catholic' does no real damage to us as believers in the true gospel.
I didn't need others to quantify my ideology to support 'what' I 'made up in my mind' was in fact true.
Truth needs no 'Doctors' of the law to teach it, only a willing heart to accept 'what God hath said'!

Accepting Gods word at what it says, will not lead into error, as some falsely do teach, (that is true Catholic teaching, remember? They said men would lead into error if the bishops and priests didn't handle the word of God and tell the people what God said.)

That is what the Catholic church did. Stopped the free flow of God leading mankind through his word.

This is the exact reason that I constantly remind people of Scofield.
He was most responsible for putting the false dispy teaching in the hands of Fun.Bap.s, through his Reference Bible.
In the 'theme' of 2 Thes., he whined about the "OBscured theme" of the Epistle, because of mistranslation.
He openly admits, here, that the King James Version doesn't separate the (pretrib rapture) from the Second Coming.
He blames everyone except Darby and his false doctrine, for this.

The translators mistranslated.
There were better mss, still undiscovered, that would've helped.
Dispy Doctrine hasn't been taught well enough.
And on, and on.

How about, God didnt put it there, because He didn't want it there?

But, starry-eyed sycophants, drunken with the koolaid of Darby Calvinism, will tout the doctrinal error of Pretrib cRapture, and still claim to be KJVO, regardless of the anti-KJV roots of their idolized doctrine.

Humpty-Dumpty Dispensationalism...you divide the Bible up so much, all the king's men can't put it back together again!

Anishinaabe

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Could one of the dispy haters on here please give their definition of dispensationalism , without bashing theologians they disagree with. Nor package it with a premise they disagree with. That is to say "I reject dispensationalism because it leads to pretrib " as that is just a non scholastic way to dismiss something you don't like personally. Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Could one of the dispy haters on here please give their definition of dispensationalism , without bashing theologians they disagree with. Nor package it with a premise they disagree with. That is to say "I reject dispensationalism because it leads to pretrib " as that is just a non scholastic way to dismiss something you don't like personally. Sent from my Z30 using Tapatalk

 

Haters is a strong word to use maybe?

 

When disagreeing with someones doctrinal stand, hate should never be focused on the

'deliverer'.  

 

My 'take' on 'dispy', if I may use this word, without offense (its kinda a long word to keep typing), is :

 

                                                                       a 'teaching' dividing the history of time in the scriptures, and naming to each division a 'form' of 

                                                                       'salvation/gospel' to various 'ways' for mankind to be saved, and guided by the God of creation, 

                                                                       focusing on the people of Israel, eventually, and making them, as a people of JacOB's bloodline,

                                                                       the only 'chosen' humans, not even excluding Christians not of the 'jewish' blood. Even though

                                                                       God divorced the Northern Tribes of Israel, making them also gentiles, and promised a new

                                                                       covenant/testament that would once again join the two in 'faith' in the same Messiah/Christ and

                                                                       his lamb like sacrifice for their sins and the sins of all the world; those who teach and believe

                                                                       'dispy' still do not accept the scriptures as a whole, the message of God to his people of all

                                                                       nationalities, specifically to those who believe, but seperate God's eternal sacrifice, once, forever,

                                                                       for all, and makes two ways of saved people using two gospels. Also, the timing of Christ's return

                                                                       for each is different, and as I am still learning what they believe, I will stop, for I am somewhat

                                                                       new to this 'doctrine'.

 

This is my definition that I get from these forums, as I know no one who believes this way personally.

It is interesting though and I find it strengthens my own view of what the scriptures say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...