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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Sorry to "disappoint you", but I went to the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, (associated with J. Vernon McGee)

There were no corrupted versions of the Bible used at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles

The only other "versions" that I was aware of at that time was the (old) American Standard Version and the Revised Version ("reversed version"). 

I never even heard the mention of any "Geneva" Bible while at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles.

All my memorization of Scripture was in the King James, which the Holy Spirit uses to bring verses to my attention

to this very day, so I can find them on my hyper-linked on-line BLB.

 

Please answer #185 - "Do you think Acts 2:38 is a 'different' salvation than ours? I bet you think the 'Jews' had to be baptized in order to have 'remission' for their sins.

I do know people that believe your way, and that is what they believe."

 

Do you? And anyone else think this?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Please answer #185 - "Do you think Acts 2:38 is a 'different' salvation than ours? I bet you think the 'Jews' had to be baptized in order to have 'remission' for their sins.

I do know people that believe your way, and that is what they believe."

 

Do you? And anyone else think this?

NATIONAL repentence is necessary for Israel to inherit the Kingdom on earth

That's what the 2nd coming is all about - to save the "remnant" of Israel from total annihilation.

The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached in Israel (by Jews) up until the destruction of the Temple.

The Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached by Jews (genetic Israel) during the Tribulation.

Here is an example of the preaching of the Kingdom (note: "times of refreshing" and "times of restitution" refer to the Millennium).

 

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Peter - Acts 3:19-21

 

I would advise careful reading of Romans chapter 11

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:
Note: "JacOB" is used specifically to emphasize that these are genetically pure Hebrews and not some "spiritual Israel" gOBbly-gook.

 

 

Any Jew, at any time - as an individual - can accept Christ as their personal savior, thus granting them a heavenly reward.

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NATIONAL repentence is necessary for Israel to inherit the Kingdom on earth.
That's what the 2nd coming is all about - to save the "remnant" of Israel from total annilation.
The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached in Israel (by Jews) up until the destruction of the Temple.
The Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached by Jews (genetic Israel) during the Tribulation.
Here is an example of the preaching of the Kingdom (note: "times of refreshing" and "times of restitution" refer to the Millennium).


Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Peter - Acts 3:19-21

I would advise careful reading of Romans chapter 11
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:
Note: "JacOB" is used specifically to emphasize that these are genetically pure Hebrews and not some "spiritual Israel" gOBbly-gook.


Any Jew, at any time - as an individual - can accept Christ as their personal savior, thus granting them a heavenly reward.

This is not one single shred of a hint of Scriptural Evidence, that Jews will be preaching Jesus during the Great Tribulation.

Anishinaabe

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Is there a correlation between the Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of God and the Gospel of the Circumcision, Gospel of the Uncircumcision?  

 

Schwenke, Beameup, what say you fellas?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I wanted to start this post so as not to hijack another, and because some seem genuinely confused as to why an IFB pastor, particularly, would hold to what to them, (and to me once, as well) comes close to perhaps heresy or a departure of the faith.

 

Let me first say that despite how strongly we hold to such a doctrine, one way or the other, it is not what we might consider a fundamental, or it shouldn't be IMHO, and so, I have never seen it as a separation issue, though I know of some who do. I won't judge them-its between them and the Lord.

 

I was not raised IFB-it is something I turned to in my 20's. However, saved in a C&MA church and raised in various churches in my youth, one things they all agreed on was a pre-tribulation rapture position. So, since my youth this is what I believed.

 

Shorlty after I was married to my wife, back in about 2005-ish, my wife began to seriously question me concerning  the various positions on the timing of the catching away/rapture, whatever you want to call it. I explained to her all that I had ever been taught on the subject: The entire tribulation is the outpouring of God's wrath., so we won't go through it; it is for the Jews, the time of JacOB's trouble, so the church won't be there; Rev 4:1 seems to suggest the rapture as John sees a door open in heaven, (isn't Jesus called 'the door'?) and a voice that says "Come up hither", ( voice of the archangel?), so this must depict the rapture JUST before the tribulation is seen to begin; 1Thes 4  says, concerning the rapture, "Comfort one another with this', how can we find comfort in knowing we will go through great tribulation? And so on.

 

So, she began to lay out a pretty extensive argument both against the PreTR and for the PostT/PreWR Trib.  To go into it all, I haven't time. But I told her that, to make her happy, and because I want to please God before man, OR her, I would take what we have both said, and prayerfully study it out for myself. I took about a year looking it over in scripture and praying over it before I was finally willing to say that I had to agree with her. I knew I was taking a stand considerably different than 99% of other IFB's and might lost friends and associates over it, but I believed, as I do now, that pleasing God was more important. 

 

Some of what I found was, yes, Israel is the focus of the tribulation time. However, nowhere do we see that this must mean the church is not in existence. Jew have continued to live and thrive during the 'church age', and even with Israel being re-established as a nation, here we still are. The focus on them doesn't necessarily mean we can't be here any more-it is assumption, no more.

 

I have yet to hear anyone give a good explanation of what occurs in Rev 14:14. No, it isn't Jesus sitting on the church-we see Jesus in the clouds with a sickle, reaping His harvest. This takes place shortly after the seventh trumpet sounds, the last trumpet mentioned in scripture. We also see an angel shout to Him that the time has come.  Last trumpet, Jesus in the clouds, voice of an angel from the temple, (an archangel?). sounds like about all that is needed to match what occurs in 1Thes 4 return of Christ. NO, we don't see those who sleep in Christ coming with Him, but that doesn't mean they aren't there-it is the ONLY specific example we are given of Jesus reaping His harvest, and it is followed immediately by the outpouring of God's wrath. Apparently the entire tribulation is NOT God's wrath, because we see a specific time the wrath falls.  

 

I will continue when I have time. There's more! Please read, comment if you like, but again, this is not comprehensive, so no fights just yet.

 

I've reaped with a sickle and everything is cut. The wheat and the bull nettles, grass, etc is cut. The trash plants are cast aside by the followers who are gathering the wheat. The rapture only picks out a person here and a person there its not like reaping. Its like going into the tomato patch and only picking a few and leaving the rest. You can't do that with a sickle.

When we are raptured we don't need the Angels to fly us to heaven. We will have that wonderful Jesus' body (you know like his). We can fly away on a cloud, eat fish, walk through doors, and be touched or handled. That's one of the reasons why we are called the "Body of Christ" by Paul.

The Jews will need transportation in a destroyed world. So during the reaping Angels will fly them to Jesus' kingdom. (wheat to the barn) They are still human and need to live physically to enter this kingdom. That's why in Matthew 24:13 they have to be alive to enter the kingdom. It doesn't matter to us Christians because dead or alive we will be changed in a moment and we return with Jesus.

So I think this points to the second coming.

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Prophet
You have been poisoned by someone who wants you to think ONE THING about dispensationalism. Scofield is not the be-all/end-all of dispensationalism. If you had done your homework you would have known that. But you have not, and you will not. You simply have no idea as to what you are talking about in this matter. Not all dispensationalists believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. I posted elsewhere some basic tenets of the mildest forms of dispensationalism - and you hold to those tenets.
Dispensationalism covers a huge range of varying beliefs just as the term "independent Baptist does." Yet you try to lump everything under one umbrella, when it simply does not fit. Your OBsession with Scofield has blinded you to broader aspects of what basic dispensationalism really is. Of course, if you were really honest with yourself, and did that homework, you would end up having to admit that, Yes, in fact, you are a dispensationalist. (Horrors!)

Moving on!

If dispensationalism has no strict definition, to you, then why defend it at all?
If it has no boundaries, and it isn't definable, then it doesn't exist.

Just say you are a Bible believer.

I am.

I don't hold to any Theological system.

I hold to the Scriptures.

This is easy logic to get......
If there are beliefs that are held by disps, that happen to line up with the Scriptures....guess what?
They may be believed by others who aren't disps.
They aren't then become "closet disps", or "partial disps", or anything else.
I don't believe all dispensational teaching is wrong, or I'd have to chuck my Bible.
I amen where you're right.
I don't go along where you're wrong.

I don't go along with any known Bible correctors. You understand this.

I love God's Word, and reserve the right to have him reveal it to me, without the restrictions placed on it by any system of men.

Anishinaabe

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HHmmmmm....

Wondering how we can have a rational discussion about dispensationalism when the people who are so decidedly against it don't even really know what it is????

 

I did not say that it does not have any "strict" definition or boundaries.  What I did say is that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, yet you keep ranting against it.  All you know about dispensationalism is what someone has poisoned you against it with, and they themselves don't know what it REALLY is. 

And like I said, you are not really willing to go find out for yourself either.

 

Yes, Scofield was wrong in some places...but he was right more often than he was wrong.  So why throw the baby out with the bathwater?  You already believe many of the things that Scofield taught!  Why not identify how close you are to what he taught, and then do what so many others of us have done, which is praise the Lord for where Scofield (or anyone else for that matter!) was right, and warn where he was wrong? 

 

This is nothing more than a childish, knee-jerk reaction to something that you have no idea as to what it really is.  You perceive it to be a threat.  It is not. 

HYPER- dispensationalism?  Yes.  That is a prOBlem.  I am against that.  It is taking a good thing too far. 

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NATIONAL repentence is necessary for Israel to inherit the Kingdom on earth

That's what the 2nd coming is all about - to save the "remnant" of Israel from total annilation.

The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached in Israel (by Jews) up until the destruction of the Temple.

The Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached by Jews (genetic Israel) during the Tribulation.

Here is an example of the preaching of the Kingdom (note: "times of refreshing" and "times of restitution" refer to the Millennium).

 

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 

And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Peter - Acts 3:19-21

 

I would advise careful reading of Romans chapter 11

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:
Note: "JacOB" is used specifically to emphasize that these are genetically pure Hebrews and not some "spiritual Israel" gOBbly-gook.

 

 

Any Jew, at any time - as an individual - can accept Christ as their personal savior, thus granting them a heavenly reward.

 

When are you gonna answer my previous question? Surely this is not it.

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Is there a correlation between the Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of God and the Gospel of the Circumcision, Gospel of the Uncircumcision?

I think you meant the Gospel of the Kingdom vs. the Gospel of Grace

and the Gospel of the Circumcision vs. the Gospel of the Uncircumcision.

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When are you gonna answer my previous question? Surely this is not it.

Ceremonial washing has always been an integral part of Judiasm.  John the Baptist call his kinsmen to repent and be baptized.

Believers in Jesus also were ceremonially washed as a sign of repentence.  This was done to prepare the way for the Lord.

The ideal would have been for the whole nation to be baptized and receive their Messiah to sit on David's Throne.

Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem and his kinsmen (genetic Jews) will serve him in Israel in the future.

 

We, as Gentile believers are not bound by Judiasm, we are "baptized" in the Holy Spirit.  When we see ourselves as sinful

in the presence of God the Holy Spirit, then the "self-ego" must die and we will be filled with God's Spirit be born-again and sealed.

Our King is in heaven, and we will be "changed" and taken up into heaven at the rapture (harpazo).

 

We will return from heaven with Jesus when his kinsmen (genetic Jews) repent of their National sin of rejecting their Messiah.

Meantime, we remain in the heavenly kingdom waiting for the fulfillment of Enoch's prophecy from Jude 1:14:

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
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HHmmmmm....
Wondering how we can have a rational discussion about dispensationalism when the people who are so decidedly against it don't even really know what it is????

I did not say that it does not have any "strict" definition or boundaries. What I did say is that YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, yet you keep ranting against it. All you know about dispensationalism is what someone has poisoned you against it with, and they themselves don't know what it REALLY is.
And like I said, you are not really willing to go find out for yourself either.

Yes, Scofield was wrong in some places...but he was right more often than he was wrong. So why throw the baby out with the bathwater? You already believe many of the things that Scofield taught! Why not identify how close you are to what he taught, and then do what so many others of us have done, which is praise the Lord for where Scofield (or anyone else for that matter!) was right, and warn where he was wrong?

This is nothing more than a childish, knee-jerk reaction to something that you have no idea as to what it really is. You perceive it to be a threat. It is not.
HYPER- dispensationalism? Yes. That is a prOBlem. I am against that. It is taking a good thing too far.

You don't have any idea what I know. I don't have any idea what you know. Don't pretend omniscience, or E.S.P.

I don't want to be identified with the crowd that hangs on to the Bible molesting done by textual criticsike Darby and Scofield.

Pro 18:1
1 Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh
and intermeddleth with all wisdom.


Anishinaabe

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Ceremonial washing has always been an integral part of Judiasm.  John the Baptist call his kinsmen to repent and be baptized.

Believers in Jesus also were ceremonially washed as a sign of repentence.  This was done to prepare the way for the Lord.

The ideal would have been for the whole nation to be baptized and receive their Messiah to sit on David's Throne.

Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem and his kinsmen (genetic Jews) will serve him in Israel in the future.

 

We, as Gentile believers are not bound by Judiasm, we are "baptized" in the Holy Spirit.  

 

 

Not me, my Baptism follows John the Baptist, same as Christ, not the Holy Spirit.  

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I think you meant the Gospel of the Kingdom vs. the Gospel of Grace

and the Gospel of the Circumcision vs. the Gospel of the Uncircumcision.

 

No, but I'll read what you write on either.

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  • Advanced Member

There are no "raptures", there are resurrections.
Are you claiming that the dead won't rise at our gathering in the clouds?
Even your pet verses, that gives NO timeline, IThes., tells us it is a resurrection, not a rapture.

Rapture is a euphoric feeling, Resurrection is an event.

Anishinaabe

 

Tribulation saints are not mentioned in scripture, either.

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Ceremonial washing has always been an integral part of Judiasm.  John the Baptist call his kinsmen to repent and be baptized.

Believers in Jesus also were ceremonially washed as a sign of repentence.  This was done to prepare the way for the Lord.

The ideal would have been for the whole nation to be baptized and receive their Messiah to sit on David's Throne.

Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem and his kinsmen (genetic Jews) will serve him in Israel in the future.

 

We, as Gentile believers are not bound by Judiasm, we are "baptized" in the Holy Spirit.  When we see ourselves as sinful

in the presence of God the Holy Spirit, then the "self-ego" must die and we will be filled with God's Spirit be born-again and sealed.

Our King is in heaven, and we will be "changed" and taken up into heaven at the rapture (harpazo).

 

We will return from heaven with Jesus when his kinsmen (genetic Jews) repent of their National sin of rejecting their Messiah.

Meantime, we remain in the heavenly kingdom waiting for the fulfillment of Enoch's prophecy from Jude 1:14:

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

 

Wow, back to the two bride question...

 

:umno:

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Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

Where do you see the rapture occurring before the wrath in chapter 6?

 

1Thess 2:16  Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

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The Gospels were not written to "the church", they were written to Israel.

If you want to read what is specifically written to "the church", read Paul's Epistles.

This is where the 4th Century Catholic church "went wrong" and continue to this very day.

Replacement Theology "remnants" are found throughout the Protestant demoninations as well.

There will be God's servants of the house of Israel (genetic Israelites) preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom during the Tribulation.

 

So we should tear the gospels out of our bibles?

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Sorry to "disappoint you", but I went to the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, (associated with J. Vernon McGee)

There were no corrupted versions of the Bible used at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles

The only other "versions" that I was aware of at that time was the (old) American Standard Version and the Revised Version ("reversed version"). 

I never even heard the mention of any "Geneva" Bible while at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles.

All my memorization of Scripture was in the King James, which the Holy Spirit uses to bring verses to my attention

to this very day, so I can find them on my hyper-linked on-line BLB.

 

Sorry to "disappoint you", but I went to the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, (associated with J. Vernon McGee)

There were no corrupted versions of the Bible used at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles

The only other "versions" that I was aware of at that time was the (old) American Standard Version and the Revised Version ("reversed version"). 

I never even heard the mention of any "Geneva" Bible while at the Bible Institute of Los Angeles.

All my memorization of Scripture was in the King James, which the Holy Spirit uses to bring verses to my attention

to this very day, so I can find them on my hyper-linked on-line BLB.

 

Was that the same McGee who said he was looking forward to the Revelation when there will be no more sea, as he was looking forward to parking his car where the pacific ocean now is?  (McGee on the Prophecies.)

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

Acts 10, 11, 13. Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius and his crew (Gentiles), then Paul introduced and preached the gospel to a mix of Jews and Gentiles?

 

Key verses from Peter: Acts 10:34-45

Key verses from Paul: Acts 13:26-39.

 

You will notice that God by the Holy ghost cut off Peter from telling them they must repent and be baptized.  Before he got to that part, they were filled with the Holy Ghost and away they went.  They were not filled by the laying on of hands but through faith alone just as you and I are today.

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