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Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position


Ukulelemike

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The Gospels were not written to "the church", they were written to Israel.

If you want to read what is specifically written to "the church", read Paul's Epistles.

This is where the 4th Century Catholic church "went wrong" and continue to this very day.

Replacement Theology "remnants" are found throughout the Protestant demoninations as well.

There will be God's servants of the house of Israel (genetic Israelites) preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom during the Tribulation.

 

Acts 10, 11, 13. Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius and his crew (Gentiles), then Paul introduced and preached the gospel to a mix of Jews and Gentiles?

 

Key verses from Peter: Acts 10:34-45

Key verses from Paul: Acts 13:26-39.

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Galatians 2:1-3

Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 

And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,
but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
 
So, 14 years later, the original 12 are still in Jerusalem, preaching the Hebrew Gosple of the Kingdom,
 and preaching that Gentiles must OBey the Law (at least when they show up in Israel, anyway)

 

Galatians 2:7

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision
was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
 
AD 66 - 2 Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul
also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  As also in all his epistles,
speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they
that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 
So, as late as 66 AD (4 years before the destruction of the Temple), Peter acknowledges that Paul
is writing scripture and that he finds Pauls epistles "hard to understand".   No wonder Catholics
chose "Peter" to be the first Pope.  It doesn't take much thinking to understand that the revelation
of the mystery that was revealed to Paul was gradual and took time to complete.
Paul:  Gospel of Grace, through Faith, without Works.
Peter: Gospel of the Kingdom, Mosaic Law still practiced
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The Gospels were not written to "the church", they were written to Israel.
If you want to read what is specifically written to "the church", read Paul's Epistles.
This is where the 4th Century Catholic church "went wrong" and continue to this very day.
Replacement Theology "remnants" are found throughout the Protestant demoninations as well.
There will be God's servants of the house of Israel (genetic Israelites) preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom during the Tribulation.

Show me a passage that puts Israelites preaching during the Trib, in the Scriptures....and I'll show you
an Angel doing the evangelizing.

Rev 14:6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,


They will go to Hell, every one of them, except the 144,000.


Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 7:2-3
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God:and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Till. See it? Timetable . Pre-Wrath.


Anishinaabe

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Galatians 2:1-3 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: So, 14 years later, the original 12 are still in Jerusalem, preaching the Hebrew Gosple of the Kingdom, and preaching that Gentiles must OBey the Law (at least when they show up in Israel, anyway) Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; AD 66 - 2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. So, as late as 66 AD (4 years before the destruction of the Temple), Peter acknowledges that Paul is writing scripture and that he finds Pauls epistles "hard to understand". No wonder Catholics chose "Peter" to be the first Pope. It doesn't take much thinking to understand that the revelation of the mystery that was revealed to Paul was gradual and took time to complete. Paul: Gospel of Grace, through Faith, without Works. Peter: Gospel of the Kingdom, Mosaic Law still practiced
Mat 24:14 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Sounds like the Kingdom Gospel is to all Nations, doesn't it? Anishinaabe
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Galatians 2:1-3

Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 

And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,
but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
 
So, 14 years later, the original 12 are still in Jerusalem, preaching the Hebrew Gosple of the Kingdom,
 and preaching that Gentiles must OBey the Law (at least when they show up in Israel, anyway)

 

Galatians 2:7

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision
was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
 
AD 66 - 2 Peter 3:15-16
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul
also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;  As also in all his epistles,
speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they
that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 
So, as late as 66 AD (4 years before the destruction of the Temple), Peter acknowledges that Paul
is writing scripture and that he finds Pauls epistles "hard to understand".   No wonder Catholics
chose "Peter" to be the first Pope.  It doesn't take much thinking to understand that the revelation
of the mystery that was revealed to Paul was gradual and took time to complete.
Paul:  Gospel of Grace, through Faith, without Works.
Peter: Gospel of the Kingdom, Mosaic Law still practiced

 

 

That doesn't even make sense.

Yes Peter continued with the 'Jewish' people. Yes Paul went to the Gentiles. Both preaching the same gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Your view changes the truth of the Gospel to say there is salvation two different ways.

 

Do you think Acts 2:38 is a 'different' salvation than ours? I bet you think the 'Jews' had to be baptized in order to have 'remission' for their sins.

I do know people that believe your way, and that is what they believe.

 

That is not Baptist, nor Bible.

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Show me a passage that puts Israelites preaching during the Trib, in the Scriptures....and I'll show you
an Angel doing the evangelizing.


Rev 14:6
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,


They will go to Hell, every one of them, except the 144,000.
 

So, in the context of Matthew chapter 24, Jesus is giving instructions to "the angel" that will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom,

and warning the angel that he must flee (and pray that it not be on the Sabbath day), because GREAT TRIBULATION

is coming such as has never been on the earth and never shall be? 

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So, in the context of Matthew chapter 24, Jesus is giving instructions to "the angel" that will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom,

and warning the angel that he must flee (and pray that it not be on the Sabbath day), because GREAT TRIBULATION

is coming such as has never been on the earth and never shall be? 

 

College training, such as you have OBtained, is useless trash that means 'man knows better than God's scriptures, cause it couldn't be THAT clear!'

The scriptures ARE that clear, we just need to trust God over mens opinions when they call it 'rightly dividing'. When they use that phrase, that should ring bells!

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So, in the context of Matthew chapter 24, Jesus is giving instructions to "the angel" that will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom,
and warning the angel that he must flee (and pray that it not be on the Sabbath day), because GREAT TRIBULATION
is coming such as has never been on the earth and never shall be?


He gives no instruction, concerning the angel, He simply says it must happen, then the end comes.

It was OBviously a prophecy of the same event as Rev. 14, because He was answering their prayer, to tell them of the end of the world events.

Here is the wording again:

Mat 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

It starts with "And".
Which means : 'this also'.

The end of this verse completes a thought.

This is only information.

He isnt telling them that they will do it.

He is telling them what they asked:

Mat 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

So why wouldn't it tie in with Revelation?

Anishinaabe

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College training, such as you have OBtained, is useless trash that means 'man knows better than God's scriptures, cause it couldn't be THAT clear!'

The scriptures ARE that clear, we just need to trust God over mens opinions when they call it 'rightly dividing'. When they use that phrase, that should ring bells!

I don't believe you have any idea of my educational attainments.  The most important thing in a Christian's life is his relationship with the Holy Spirit.  If the Ego/Self has not been "dethroned", then the Holy Spirit sits idly by.  Unfortunately in these "last days" that is most often the case, and very very few have discovered the key to "walking in the Spirit". 

 

Anyway, Prophet seems to conclude that Israelites (genetic Hebrews) will have no part in evangelization during the Tribulation.  I simply posted an excerpt from Matthew 24...

 

Those who hold "remnants" of Catholic "Replacement Theology" reject any future role for Jesus' Hebrew kinsmen.

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I don't believe you have any idea of my educational attainments. The most important thing in a Christian's life is his relationship with the Holy Spirit. If the Ego/Self has not been "dethroned", then the Holy Spirit sits idly by. Unfortunately in these "last days" that is most often the case, and very very few have discovered the key to "walking in the Spirit".

Anyway, Prophet seems to conclude that Israelites (genetic Hebrews) will have no part in evangelization during the Tribulation. I simply posted an excerpt from Matthew 24...

Those who hold "remnants" of Catholic "Replacement Theology" reject any future role for Jesus' Hebrew kinsmen.

And those who rightly divide the Word know that the Hebrews will be restored in the millennium, and Christ will reign from David's throne for a thousand years.

Anishinaabe

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Covenanter,

the only prOBlem with your nice little treatise here is those pesky little words in the Holy Bible.  Israel is NOT enjoying peace right now.  Israel is NOT the head of the Nations.  Christ is NOT reigning from Jerusalem.  Isaiah 11 has NOT come to pass, with a regenerated animal kingdom that lives in peace with each other, as it was in the Garden of Eden.  The promises of Scripture are that Jesus Christ would return to this earth PHYSICALLY, and reign over the entire planet with "a rod of iron."  Revelation 20 specifically states that this reign would last for 1,000 years - and it says that SIX TIMES. 

I don't know about you, but I think that the Lord is not a liar, and that the Lord says what He means, and means what He says.  So if the Lord says that Christ will return to the earth and reign over a kingdom on this earth PHYSICALLY for 1,000 years prior to the NH&NE....well, I kinda think that He meant what He said, and that it will  come to pass literally...just like He said.  Anything less than a literal fulfillment of the words in Revelation 20 makes God a liar.

 

We are right back to the same old prOBlem.  I believe that every single word of Scripture is true, and we cannot change one word to fit our theology.  Your system is constantly overlooking words, redefining words, or simply ignoring the plain meaning of the words. 

 

Just because Peter quotes the OT in Acts 2 and Acts 3 does not mean that those verses literally came to pass - they OBviously did NOT.  They were expecting Christ to return to the EARTH - as promised by the angels in Acts 1!  Did Christ return to the earth? NOT YET.  And until Christ returns to the earth, there remains a ton of prophecies to be fulfilled.

You didn't read my post. Perfect fulfilment of OT prophecy will only occur in the NH&NE. In the millennium the world is populated by increasingly rebellious sinners, just waiting for Satan to lead them in rebellion. The SOULS of dead saints are reigning - a spiritual first resurrection, NOT a bodily resurrection. That must wait for the second coming. 

 

You accuse me of not reading words, but you reject the simple reading & make the words mean what your imposed interpretation demands. Until you allow Rev. 1 to have its clear meaning, you will be misunderstand all prophecy.

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Prophet1

I don't know if you realize this but this quotation from you is a dispensational position promoted by Scofield. 

Is this sarcasm from you, or do you really believe this?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm because you did not indicate with a smiley face or anything.

If you really believe this to be true, then you are very hypocritical in your bashing of Scofield, because this is what he promotes in his reference Bible.

 

????????

 

"And those that rightly divide the Word know that the Hebrews will be restored in the millennium, and Christ will reign from David's throne for a thousand years."

 

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Is there a correlation between the Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of God and the Gospel of the Circumcision, Gospel of the Uncircumcision?  

The LORD is King. The OT is in no doubt of that. The Kingdom that was at hand at the beginning of Jesus' ministry would be the kingdom Peter proclaimed in Acts 2 - the resurrection of Jesus. We've discussed possible differences on another thread. 

 

Paul in Galatians makes it very clear that there is only one Gospel and no other. Paul CANNOT be suggesting different valid Gospels for the circumcision and uncircumcision. The same Gospel can be given different slants, appealing to those who know the Law or not. See Acts 17 for the Gospel preached to the Athenians. In Galatians 3 he shows the same one Gospel for all, using the promises to Abraham.

 

Of course there is correlation, but not what I think you are suggesting. And there will not be a different Gospel in tribulation, or millennium, or whenever. See Acts 26.

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I don't believe you have any idea of my educational attainments.  The most important thing in a Christian's life is his relationship with the Holy Spirit.  If the Ego/Self has not been "dethroned", then the Holy Spirit sits idly by.  Unfortunately in these "last days" that is most often the case, and very very few have discovered the key to "walking in the Spirit". 

 

Anyway, Prophet seems to conclude that Israelites (genetic Hebrews) will have no part in evangelization during the Tribulation.  I simply posted an excerpt from Matthew 24...

 

Those who hold "remnants" of Catholic "Replacement Theology" reject any future role for Jesus' Hebrew kinsmen.

 

No, but you show your attainments on here, and it represents the same mumbo jumbo that most colleges teach as 'fact' when they determine those 'facts' by their 'traditions'.

You do state you went to a Bible College in your bio, by the way.

 

Did they stick to the KJV? Were they reliable in that field? Why would you expect they would be when it comes to teaching what the Bible actually says? Let's check their site.

 

 "The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are without error or misstatement in their moral and spiritual teaching and record of historical facts. They are without error or defect of any kind."

 

Sounds somewhat sound?

 

"Inasmuch as the University is interdenominational " - Oops! that doesn't sound too well!

 

"Theological Distinctives: The Articles of Faith, presented here as originally conceived by the founders of the organization, has been and continues to be the stated theological position of Biola University. Where “man” is used referring to the human race it includes both genders. In addition, the following theological distinctives indicate the organization’s understanding of and teaching position on certain points that could be subject to various interpretations.

In fulfillment of God’s historical purpose for humanity to rule and establish God’s kingdom on earth (Gen. 1:28; Ps. 8:4-8; Matt. 6:10; Heb. 2:6-9), the Scriptures teach a millennial reign of Christ with His saints on earth following His literal return. The nation of Israel, having been redeemed, will play a central role in bringing the blessings of salvation to all nations during the millennium in fulfillment of biblical prophecies (e.g., Is. 2:1-4; 11:1-12; Jer. 23:5-6; Ezek. 37; Amos 9:9-15; Zech. 14; Matt. 19:28; Acts 1:6; 3:19-21; Rev. 20:4-6). Following the millennium, this kingdom will be merged into the eternal kingdom (I Cor. 15:22-28).

Before these millennial events, the believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (I Thess. 4:13-17). The time of this “rapture” is unknown, and thus believers are to live constantly watchful and ready."

Wait a minute, what is this?

"originally conceived by the founders of the organization".

They are the prOBlem? PrOBably.

 

I am awaiting an email from them on which Bible version they recommend in their classroom.

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