Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position

[Ukulelemike]

There are 2 reapings here:

Rev 14:14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap:for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

And here:

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So, nice try, but you are still wrong.

Anishinaabe

Don't bother-I have tried to lay it out clearly, but many still insist that what Jesus does is reap, though leaving them there on earth, and somehow, then, the angel comes and gathers that which has been reaped, from the vine of the earth, (you don't reap grapes),  and casts them into the winepress of wrath. It makes no sense but it makes people feel better.

 

One reaping, which INCLUDES gathering, of a crop, and one gathering from a vine.

[Steve Schwenke]

Mike

There is more than one "rapture."  That is where the "confusion" comes in, but only when we fail to "rightly divide."  The raptures spoken of in the Gospels have nothing to do with the rapture of the church spoken of in I Thess. 4:13-18 - they are two separate events.

The reaping performed by the Lord in Revelation 14 is a "rapture" of the Tribulation saints, caught out just prior to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  There is in fact a "pre-wrath" rapture - but that rapture is not the church, but Tribulation saints.

 

In Christ,

[Steve Schwenke]

Pilgrim

The Bible is about more than ONLY salvation.  Salvation is a part of the Bible, but not the main subject of the Bible.  Think of it this way - the Bible ends in Revelation, not in the Gospel of John.  There is a lot of doctrine between John and Revelation, and we are to be students of those doctrines. 

And where does Revelation end, at the Cross? or with an eternal kingdom? 

[Invicta]

Pilgrim,

It does make a difference what you believe.  If we take your position, then how does a Pastor lead his congregation in matters of doctrine?  Paul showed the Ephesians "the WHOLE counsel of God, which includes eschatology.  I don't think the Lord set us adrift to guess at this stuff.  I Believe the Bible is crystal clear on it, as does the other side of this discussion.  That is why we debate it. 

 

What is discussed here is not bible doctrine, but personal interpretation.  I was taught this interpretation when I was in the Brethren for many years.  

 

The last Brethren preacher I heard was about 4 years ago.  A really nice christian who died shortly after.  My wife and I still visit his disabled wife when we can and take her CDs of our services.

 

On the last occasion, he said that when Jesus returned as in Acts 1, he would only be coming to the Jews, as Jesus was only speaking to Jews.  Wrong.  He was speaking to the apostles who were the leaders of the church.  

 

We read in some of these posts that Matthew 24 was only regarding Jews as Jesus was speaking only to Jews,  Again wrong.  He was speaking to those he called to be the leaders of the church.

[ThePilgrim]

Pilgrim

The Bible is about more than ONLY salvation.  Salvation is a part of the Bible, but not the main subject of the Bible.  Think of it this way - the Bible ends in Revelation, not in the Gospel of John.  There is a lot of doctrine between John and Revelation, and we are to be students of those doctrines. 

And where does Revelation end, at the Cross? or with an eternal kingdom? 

True the bible is about far more than salvation.  But my point is this: Is the number one jOB of the Church to preach the gospel in order that sinners might be saved and equip those saved to do the same or is it to equip the saved to teach the rapture doctrine?  It seems to me that far too much time is spent on rapture and too little on salvation.  It also seems that the importance of teaching the rapture doctrine has become more important than believers being one in Christ.  It is splitting us apart at a time when we ought to be working together to  "Get the gospel out" and we ought to be "Putting the cookies down where the children can reach them."

 

God bless,

Larry

[Steve Schwenke]

We are to teach sound doctrine, and especially in the last days when many will fall away from sound doctrine.

The LOCAL CHURCH is to be unified in their doctrine and ministry, but the Body of Christ will never be unified until the return of Jesus Christ. 

[Gorship]

Rev 14 really isnt that confusing even as a pre-trib..but you need at least verses 12 and 13.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

-- The few remaining pieces of wheat (those who have come to Christ in these times, and those martyred are reaped up and given blessing and rest)

Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Vine of the Earth is something different here, that was then cast into the winepress, thus the fruit of Satan is matured to its point and is now cast into judgment.

seems like the most straight forward approach to me.



 

[prophet1]

I still do not understand how this issue relates to salvation or whether one is a Christian.

God bless,
Larry

Read the Thread Title.
This is a discussion on Eschatology.
Find a thread on Salvation.
Be Happy.



Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

Get right or get left!

We are told in Scriptures to always "be ready" because the Lord's coming for us in the Rapture (catching up) is imminent.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sOBerly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Being "ready" for the Lord's coming should provoke us to live godly.

The apostle John said:

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Neither the word "rapture", nor the word "imminent" are found in Scripture.

So try again to express yourself without manmade doctrinal words.

For instance, take away the word "imminent". Now search the Scriptures for a synonym, or synonymous concept, concerning our Lord's Return.

Call it the Resurrection, and not 'rapture', which is an abstract noun, anyway, and doesn't make sense in English as an event.
Search the Scriptures concerning the Resurrection.
You'll find 1 for the living, and one for the dead.

It will help.

Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

Mike
There is more than one "rapture." That is where the "confusion" comes in, but only when we fail to "rightly divide." The raptures spoken of in the Gospels have nothing to do with the rapture of the church spoken of in I Thess. 4:13-18 - they are two separate events.
The reaping performed by the Lord in Revelation 14 is a "rapture" of the Tribulation saints, caught out just prior to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is in fact a "pre-wrath" rapture - but that rapture is not the church, but Tribulation saints.

In Christ,

There are no "raptures", there are resurrections.
Are you claiming that the dead won't rise at our gathering in the clouds?
Even your pet verses, that gives NO timeline, IThes., tells us it is a resurrection, not a rapture.

Rapture is a euphoric feeling, Resurrection is an event.

Anishinaabe

[ThePilgrim]

Read the Thread Title.
This is a discussion on Eschatology.
Find a thread on Salvation.
Be Happy.



Anishinaabe

It would have taken less words to just say, "get lost".

 

God bless,

Larry

[prophet1]

What is discussed here is not bible doctrine, but personal interpretation. I was taught this interpretation when I was in the Brethren for many years.

The last Brethren preacher I heard was about 4 years ago. A really nice christian who died shortly after. My wife and I still visit his disabled wife when we can and take her CDs of our services.

On the last occasion, he said that when Jesus returned as in Acts 1, he would only be coming to the Jews, as Jesus was only speaking to Jews. Wrong. He was speaking to the apostles who were the leaders of the church.

We read in some of these posts that Matthew 24 was only regarding Jews as Jesus was speaking only to Jews, Again wrong. He was speaking to those he called to be the leaders of the church.

It was less than a week til His Resurrection, the first fruits of the coming harvest.
40 days after that, these same men began to turn the world upside, for the Church.
Jesus used the Word church in Matthew , prior to Matthew 24.
Matthew 24 was a private conversation with His Apostles of His Church.
Yet we are supposed to think that Jesus left out the little bit about them, the Apostles of His Church, not going through the Tribulation that He was warning them of.
Why would He warn them of this?
Why wouldn't He have told them of the Rescue at the last minute?
They werent gonna go through it, anyway.
They weren't even gonna be under Jewish law for 40 more years.

What difference did 50 days make?

Certainly all those Gentiles that got saved on Pentecost were gonna get confused by their leaders telling them that the Lord's Return would be preceded by the Great Tribulation, Right?

Anishinaabe

[wretched]

I see allot of ideas (no passages of Scripture) that clearly explain why a small amount of folks might take a shaky stand against a pretrib catching away of the Church.

 

There are no single verses or passages of Scripture that directly say when this event will occur for any side of the argument.

 

Having said that, this is the sound way to realize the Bible truth on the subject.

 

The far greater amount of Scriptural evidence points to a pre trib catching away.

 

Some but a far smaller amount of evidence points to a pre wrath

 

ZERO evidence points to a post trib or mil.

 

All sides of the argument are basically conjecture but the greater amount of Bible evidence points to a pre trib catching away of the Church.

 

Anyone on here with the time could match any one passage of pre wrath with 5 or more pre trib. The amils have nothing but fantasizing in their approach.

 

This is a preponderance of evidence argument and not a beyond a reasonable doubt argument.

[prophet1]

It would have taken less words to just say, "get lost".

God bless,
Larry

I don't want you to get lost.
I believe in Eternal Security, anyways.



It just seems strange to complain about the subject matter of a particular thread, when you can go find a thread about that.

If you think there is an unimportant doctrine, in Scripture, tell me which one it is.

2Ti 4:2
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.



Anishinaabe

[ThePilgrim]

True the bible is about far more than salvation.  But my point is this: Is the number one jOB of the Church to preach the gospel in order that sinners might be saved and equip those saved to do the same or is it to equip the saved to teach the rapture doctrine?  It seems to me that far too much time is spent on rapture and too little on salvation.  It also seems that the importance of teaching the rapture doctrine has become more important than believers being one in Christ.  It is splitting us apart at a time when we ought to be working together to  "Get the gospel out" and we ought to be "Putting the cookies down where the children can reach them."

 

God bless,

Larry

 

I don't want you to get lost.
I believe in Eternal Security, anyways.



It just seems strange to complain about the subject matter of a particular thread, when you can go find a thread about that.

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Maybe it really doesn't sound as strange as you make it sound.  Maybe if you could get past using childish sarcasm and engage in an adult conversation this would be a much friendlier place.

If you do not wish to engage seriously with another poster it would be more polite to just ignore the post. 

 

I will state the question plain enough that you can't mistake what it is about this time.

 

This thread has gotten really nasty, with name calling, impolite jabs, and just plain unfriendly behavior.  Now you might come up with some kind of argument that this is all good for the cause of Christ but I certainly hope not.  I do not see how God is glorified by what has been taking place here. 

 

Oh, and by the way, you win I am gone from this thread because I don't believe it is a place for an intelligent Christian conversation.

 

God bless,

Larry