Why I Left The Pre-Trib Position

[Covenanter]

Without hijacking the thread, it may be helpful to explain my position & why I am here.

 

I was brought up in the church of England, where my understanding of eschatology was limited to the Apostles' Creed:

... he ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead ....... The resurrection of the body ....

I was converted at 18 (1957), I read through the Bible & was introduced to an Independent Evangelical church a few days before I went to university.

I joined the Christian Union, attended their meetings, including prayer, & was baptised at the local Evangelical church in in the university town in December 57. The CU was present there, & that was when my wife first noticed me.

 

I did not know that the subject of eschatology was controversial, until students with their Scofield Bibles talked about the  millennium. I asked my home Pastor, & he gave me "More than Conquerers" by Hendriksen, which dismisses the Preterist position, states the historical amil position - that NT Bible prophecy, particularly Revelation runs from Pentecost to the second coming. The book includes a Biblical critique of Scofield teaching. I accepted & agreed with what I read. My Pastor explained that the founder of the FIEC (churches & fellowships that had left their denomination to uphold the inspiration & authority of the Bible) was strongly premil, but on consultation the statement on the second coming was deliberately ambiguous.

The Lord Jesus Christ will return in glory. He will raise the dead and judge the world in righteousness. The wicked will be sent to eternal punishment and the righteous will be welcomed into a life of eternal joy in fellowship with God. God will make all things new and will be glorified forever.

 

After graduation & marriage, we moved to Southall & joined the local Evangelical church. After a time the teaching became strongly dispensational, influenced by a group who had joined just before we did, when their previous church joined the World Council of Churches. We left, & only rejoined when the church called an amil Pastor. For the next 20 years or so, my views were not challenged. In the 90s, I preached through Revelation from the amil historical viewpoint, using Hendriksen as my guide. The churches I attend hold to the amil position, not Preterist.

 

With the heightened interest in the last days - the popularity of "Left Behind" & such, I did take an interest in the detailed interpretation of eschatology, aided by my wife (of nearly 52 years), who took her degree in History & Theology. [My degree is in Chemistry.] I was also discussing these things on an Internet forum "Reachout Trust" which is concerned with heretical sects & questionable teaching - I met Invicta there. The late founder of the RT was strongly disp. That gave me what I believe to be a good understanding of all sides of the discusion, & led me into a "partial Preterist" position, whereby I believe OT prophecy is fulfilled in Christ & his redeeming work, that NT prophecy (Olivet, Thessalonians & Revelation) is largely fulfilled by the AD 70 destruction, & that in Christ the promises to Abraham are fulfilled - including Gen. 12:

² and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: ³ and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

I further believe that the OT promises to Israel, national & land, include believing Jews & Gentiles as one redeemed people of God, who are called by the present Gospel, & will be perfectly fulfilled in the NH&NE when Jesus returns for resurrection & judgment.

 

Please don't allow the thread to be hijacked by replying to this post. I am simply telling you how I understand what I believe & teach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[prophet1]

Different group, different Gospel. The Gospel of the Circumcision involved the baptism & repentance of John and dealt with the whole nation of Israel ("Jews") and centered on the Millennial Reign of Messiah. They will recognize their corporate "sin" and repent at the end of the Great Tribulation, and thus hasten the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Gospel of the Uncircumcision is much more "streamlined" - as found in John's Gospel. John was exiled to Patmos and surrounded by Gentiles (to witness to), and wrote his Gospel 20+ years after the destruction of the Temple.

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Galatians 2:7

However, according to Matthew 24:14, this gospel of the (coming) Kingdom (ie: Millennium) will be once again preached by Israelites ("Jews") during the Tribulation:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

A few questions I pose:
How was Paul saved? Could this happen to the "144,000"?
Did the gift of supernaturally knowing other languages cease with Acts,
or could this "gift" be given again during the Tribulation?
Was the instantant supernatural transportation of Phillip from the Ethopian
a "one-time" event, or could this ability become available during the Tribulation?

It could be that The Lord accosts them, like He did Paul.
But it won't be at the end of the Trib.
It will be before the Mark is enforced.

Everyone who takes the Mark will be damned to Hell, immediately, irrevocably, with extreme prejudice.

Rev.14

Anishinaabe

[prophet1]

Could we take the "different Gospels" and all that stuff argument to another thread please.

Please reserve this thread for the OP topic.

Thank you.

It is germaine to the discussion, that those who hold the pretrib position see the company they keep.

Most IFB reject the hyper-dispy 7 different Salvations.
But they endorse the Pretrib doctrine, that pairs with it.

When you discuss eschatology, for those who believe in Separate gospels, the topic is the crux of their position. It is the hinge, on which their door to the rapture opens.

Good luck with trying to have this thread, without the "different gospels" discussion.

Anishinaabe

[Calvary]

To be honest even when pre-trib, I never thought too much about the time of the judgment seat of Christ timing. We know it will happen, and unlike the Great White Throne judgment, and the Sheep/Goats judgment, the Bible doesn't specifically say, so no matter what position we take, it would be conjecture and fancy footwork.

 

The thought of course is that, if the rapture was pre-trib, it gives the Lord the next seven years for the judgment, before His return. However, my question is, does God NEED seven literal, earthly years for an event occurring in Heaven, presumably outside of the constraints of time and space laws that rule the rest of the universe? If the Lord raptured us out a day, a month, or a year before His return, could He not complete a judgment of the saved, if we are all, like the Lord, no longer under the constraints of time?

 

Its also possible that, from the time of the first believers arriving in glory, after the ascension of Christ, their judgments may be on-going as they arrive. Nowhere does the Bible say it will be one judgment of all saved all at once.

 

So, since the Bible doesn't do us the courtesy of telling us when it occurs, I will just hold that it WILL occur as the Lord says it will, and be pleased when it does.

 

Well that is pretty vague. lol

 

I am one that believes that the Bible does in fact place the JSOC and by such placement, we can determine several other facts about end times chronology.

 

Let me give you a few facts.

 

I personally think this is major flaw in the Post trib or mid trib rapture position.

 

The SINS of the Christian were judged on the cross at Calvary. Therefore, the purpose of the JSOC is not to judge SIN, but rather to judge the faithful or unfaithful SERVICE of the believer AFTER his or her conversion.

 

Paul mentions this event not once, but twice in his letters.

 

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. (Romans 14:10-12)

 

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. (2 Corinthians 5:10, 11)

 

So, the question that is fair and deserves an answer in place of vagaries, is If the church is to pass through the Tribulation Period or more the Biblical nomenclature, JACOBS trouble, When does the JSOC take place?

 

I only wish to give a few thoughts as this post could ramble on for a bit.

Please read, please think about the conclusion one makes as one tries to come to Biblical truth. IFB positions aside, I am only interested in what the Bible says, not what men think it teaches.

 

1. WHY IT CANNOT BE AFTER THE TRIB

 

This would be impossible in light of the fact that the judgment of the beast (antichrist) takes place at the second advent, as well as the judgment of the nations. Neither of these judgments involve born again believers.

First, the judgment of the beast.

 

John wrote,

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:19-21)

The first thing the Lord Jesus Christ does after his literal and physical return to the earth is to judge the man of sin, the son of perdition.

 

Paul said,

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thessalonians 2:8-10)

 

Daniel spoke of this also.

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. (Daniel 7:9-12)

 

Some have misunderstood that Daniel’s vision pertains to the White Throne Judgment (WTJ), but this is impossible because the beast is “given to the burning flame, matching

John’s account in Revelation 19.

 

Secondly, the Lord Jesus Christ will judge the nations after he judges the beast.

 

Matthew said,

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:31-46)

 

These are the Gentile nations and they will be giving account for how they treated Jesus’ brethren (literal and physical Jews) during the Tribulation. Their salvation and entry into the millennial kingdom is based upon their WORKS and whether they helped the Jews during Daniel’s 70th week or not. This cannot be applied to anyone in the church, the body of Christ, no matter what kind of theological gymnastics are attempted. There isn’t a born again member of the body of Christ within 50 chapters of these verses in either direction.

 

 

 

Also, Mike, you stated that non one has ever given you satisfaction on Rev 14:14 and on.

Really? You mean that you can´t see the simple differences between Rev 14 and 1 Thess 4?

 

In Rev there are TRUMPETS not a TRUMP, which is the sound of a trumpet.

 

There are no TRUMPETS in 1 Thess 4.

 

Dispensational truth is in its most basic thought, THINGS THAT ARE DIFFERENT ARE NOT THE SAME, no matter how much we desire them to be.

 

So, I posted 1 reason why the rapture cannot be during or after the Trib, gave you several scriptures to think about. If you answer, please address my verses - please do not just simply present your reasoning why you think the Pre Trib position is wrong, but address my post, line by line. Anything other that that is just mere arguing.

 

One thing this board has caused me to shy away from it is too much arguing and posturing, but very little real debate.

 

And the fact the Brother Matt allows fools to run amok here. I mean, with all due respect, a fellow who does not hold the Pre Trib position is a moderator on this site?? (shaking head in disbelief)

Seriously Matt?

 

Where do you draw the line brother?

 

God bless.

calvary

[ThePilgrim]

And the fact the Brother Matt allows fools to run amok here. I mean, with all due respect, a fellow who does not hold the Pre Trib position is a moderator on this site?? (shaking head in disbelief)

Seriously Matt?

 

Where do you draw the line brother?

 

God bless.

calvary 

The statement you just made is tantamount to saying that a person that is not Pre-Trib is not to be trusted.
I hope you do not wish me to believe that you will hear (with an open mind) an argument against Pre-Trib after that statement.

 

God bless,

Larry

[Calvary]

The statement you just made is tantamount to saying that a person that is not Pre-Trib is not to be trusted.
I hope you do not wish me to believe that you will hear (with an open mind) an argument against Pre-Trib after that statement.

 

God bless,

Larry

 

By no means. I am speaking to doctrine on a BAPTIST forum, not to any issues of character. I don´t know Mike. His morality or integrity are not in question by me.

 

I signed on here because this site purported to be a BAPTIST web site for IFB like minded folks could have fellowship. I never thought I would have to wade through the nonsense of 7th Day Adventists heresies, anti mission minded tight fisted misers who won´t pay a pastor, KJB "preferred" instead of only¨¨, and now a Moderator no less comes out in opposition to a long held sound doctrine of the IFB position, Pre Trib, which can be found in the articles of faith all over the IFB world,

 

so yes I feel a little bit disappointing in this site. It´s not what it was when I signed on.

 

God bless,

calvary

[wretched]

UK Mike,

You seem unconvinced one way or the other in your posts in this thread. The only convincing statement you have written is that your wife made you believe it.

[Ukulelemike]

OKay, so, we can have a trump, which is admittedly the sound a trumpet makes, WITHOUT a trumpet? What did John say in Rev 4 about the voice? "and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me". Wow-no mention of a trump here. Guess no trumpet, just a voice As a trumpet, so we're prOBably speaking of volume, not quality. BUt this, then, makes your argument invalid, by your own admission, because no trump. And the Bible says it will be the trump of God. A trump needs a trumpet, but the voice of a trumpet, by your estimation, does not equal a trump, particularly when it is specifically said to be a voice, not a trumpet.

 

Context of Rev 4:1- "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter". This was a call to John to SEE what would be hereafter. This is not a rapture, any more than when Isaiah was brought to heaven, before the throne of God, or Ezekiel was brought to heaven before the throne of God. Like Isaiah and Ezekiel, it was to receive a message, a revelation from the mouth of God, to be passed on to the people of God.  Now might it have been a picture of the rapture? Perhaps. But really, I would more see the example of the two witnesses being brought up as possibly being the rapture, because they were dead, were resurrected and again, heard a voice that called them up. Though I believe, as with John, this was specifically for them, as a witness against the nations.

 

And seriously, I just don't see the point in arguing trump/trumpet-its a dumb, (yes I said it) argument, because to say this, that a trump, which is the sound a trumpet makes, will come without a trumpet, which trumps, is seriously twisting the plain meaning. A trumpet trumps. A trump emenates from a trumpet. I am seriously not seeing the prOBlem in understanding this. 

   As well, the coming of Christ for His redeemed is both said to the with the trump of God, AND that the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised. So, trump...trumpet, but present at the same event.

 

Going back to Rev 14. Really, now, there is disagreement that there are two different things here? The scripture is really very plain about that. I will reiterate.

 

One: "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

    Okay, Jesus' reaping completed. The Earth Was Reaped. He thrust in His sickle and the earth was reaped. Period.

 

Two: "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God "

   Second, different harvest completed. An angel with a sickle comes out of the temple, and then ANOTHER angel comes out and says to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth. He thrusts in his sickle, the vines are gathered and cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

 

See, in the first, we see a reaping. Jesus Christ is told to reap. B y the way, if you have done farming, you will know that reaping INCLUDES gathering, not just leaving it on the ground. That would be cutting, not reaping. So Jesus reaps His harvest.  THEN, an angel comes from the temple also wth a sickle, (which would not be needed, by the way, if Jesus hat merely cut and left His harvest lying on the ground the be gathered here.), ad the angel from the temple tells him to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth. Clearly this is something different from what Jesus had done. Grapes you gather, you don't reap, you cut the clusters of grapes from the vine, which were then thrown into a press to be made to wine. No cutting of the vines.

 

So, my question remains: If this isn't the rapture, what is it? What is the harvest of the earth that is ready for Jesus to gather them? How is this not seen clearly as representing the church, which was called, in Matthew, wheat, who, at the sound of a trumpet, will be reaped after the days of tribulation?

 

Yes, the beast will be judged before the nations, which will be before the believers. That's fine-no conflict here. If the events of Rev 14 are the rapture, as I believe, we must ask ourselves, how long does the wrath take, after which Jesus returns to judge the beast and nations? A day? A week? A month? A year? You haven't considered my reply on it-are the events in Heaven subject to time? God ceetainly isn't, and it would make sense then that, being in His presence, we won't be either. John is taken from a time 2,000 yhears past, and given to witness the events that as yet haven't occurred, so apparently, there is no binding of time there. So while to us the judgment may take thousands of years, to time here, what, a day is as a thousand years? And a thousand years as a day? We may experience what seems a great passing of time, virtually none may pass here on earth.

 

Basically from scripture, all we know is that it MUST occur, it would seem, before Jesus returns to earth to reign. So, as I said before, it coukd be taking place surrently as believers die and go to Heaven, or it could all be at once after the rapture, and may take no time at all by earth's reckoning. Again, not seeing the prOBlem.

 

We seem to run often on long-term assumptions: the judgment seat of Christ as a huge auditorium full of all belevers of all time, waiting their turn. That's not scirpture, and honestly, I would think maybe the Lord would be a bit more efficient than this. Why have people in heaven for 2000, 1000, 100 years, waiting around doing who-knows-what, and wait to judge them all at one time? Why not assume the Lord is wise enough to judge them as they come?  The only judgments that are clearly shown to occur at one time, are the GWT judgmet and the judgment of the nations. Once a believer dies, what's the wait? 

   And again, we are trying to put linear constraints on that which will prOBably NOT be subject to such. Again, assumptions is really what we are talking about in this subject-I have just chosen to stop assuming and study the Bible. NOTHING says we won't be present on earth during the tribulation period. Nothing. Assumption. NOWHERE di we see anything that looks vaguely like a catching up of the saints anywhere in scripture except Rev 14-assumption that it takes place at an unspecified time causes us to soundly reject that and try to fit other meanings to it, or ignore it altogether.  Assumption that Matt 25 is only speaking of Jews causes us to reject that this is the rapture AFTER the days of great tribulation, and thus, an actual second rapture/resurrection that is really only part of the first, must then be fit into our theology.  ,

[Ukulelemike]

UK Mike,

You seem unconvinced one way or the other in your posts in this thread. The only convincing statement you have written is that your wife made you believe it.

Not at all. I'm just not thrilled about going through the tribulation, even if we may be somewhat protected to a point. It is not a fun thought. And this is why I say that I am happy for someone to prove me wrong, because, for the same reason that I have gone the way I have, I would rather please God than man-so if I am found wrong, I will willingy turn again. BUt to see this as being unconvinced is not true-it took me a year of study and prayer to finally turn to where I am-I was convinced, not by my wife, but by study of the word of God and stubbornnes to not want to make a decision that might cause this sort of issue: that to some, I can't possibly be an IFB, because NOT being pre-trib is tantamount to heresy. I lost friends and associates by this choice, but I was wiing to do so because I am convinced it is true. 

 

So, yeah, I'm convinced-my wife just gave me the motivation to search it out, rather than just accept what I had been taught, and struggle along trying to make it make sense.

[Covenanter]

The historic Baptist doctrine is declared in The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)  That was the year of the "Toleration Act" when non-conformists were allowed freedom of worship. Previously they were imprisoned & fined & even executed under the "Act of Uniformity."

 

See #31 & #32 for

• Man's State After Death and the Resurrection
• The Last Judgement

Those who don't hold dispensation doctrine are in good company.

[Calvary]

OKay, so, we can have a trump, which is admittedly the sound a trumpet makes, WITHOUT a trumpet? What did John say in Rev 4 about the voice? "and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me". Wow-no mention of a trump here. Guess no trumpet, just a voice As a trumpet, so we're prOBably speaking of volume, not quality. BUt this, then, makes your argument invalid, by your own admission, because no trump. And the Bible says it will be the trump of God. A trump needs a trumpet, but the voice of a trumpet, by your estimation, does not equal a trump, particularly when it is specifically said to be a voice, not a trumpet.

 

 

Context of Rev 4:1- "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter". This was a call to John to SEE what would be hereafter. This is not a rapture, any more than when Isaiah was brought to heaven, before the throne of God, or Ezekiel was brought to heaven before the throne of God. Like Isaiah and Ezekiel, it was to receive a message, a revelation from the mouth of God, to be passed on to the people of God.  Now might it have been a picture of the rapture? Perhaps. But really, I would more see the example of the two witnesses being brought up as possibly being the rapture, because they were dead, were resurrected and again, heard a voice that called them up. Though I believe, as with John, this was specifically for them, as a witness against the nations.

 

And seriously, I just don't see the point in arguing trump/trumpet-its a dumb, (yes I said it) argument, because to say this, that a trump, which is the sound a trumpet makes, will come without a trumpet, which trumps, is seriously twisting the plain meaning. A trumpet trumps. A trump emenates from a trumpet. I am seriously not seeing the prOBlem in understanding this. 

   As well, the coming of Christ for His redeemed is both said to the with the trump of God, AND that the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised. So, trump...trumpet, but present at the same event.

 

Going back to Rev 14. Really, now, there is disagreement that there are two different things here? The scripture is really very plain about that. I will reiterate.

 

One: "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

    Okay, Jesus' reaping completed. The Earth Was Reaped. He thrust in His sickle and the earth was reaped. Period.

 

Two: "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God "

   Second, different harvest completed. An angel with a sickle comes out of the temple, and then ANOTHER angel comes out and says to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth. He thrusts in his sickle, the vines are gathered and cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

 

See, in the first, we see a reaping. Jesus Christ is told to reap. B y the way, if you have done farming, you will know that reaping INCLUDES gathering, not just leaving it on the ground. That would be cutting, not reaping. So Jesus reaps His harvest.  THEN, an angel comes from the temple also wth a sickle, (which would not be needed, by the way, if Jesus hat merely cut and left His harvest lying on the ground the be gathered here.), ad the angel from the temple tells him to gather the clusters of the vine of the earth. Clearly this is something different from what Jesus had done. Grapes you gather, you don't reap, you cut the clusters of grapes from the vine, which were then thrown into a press to be made to wine. No cutting of the vines.

 

So, my question remains: If this isn't the rapture, what is it? What is the harvest of the earth that is ready for Jesus to gather them? How is this not seen clearly as representing the church, which was called, in Matthew, wheat, who, at the sound of a trumpet, will be reaped after the days of tribulation?

 

Yes, the beast will be judged before the nations, which will be before the believers. That's fine-no conflict here. If the events of Rev 14 are the rapture, as I believe, we must ask ourselves, how long does the wrath take, after which Jesus returns to judge the beast and nations? A day? A week? A month? A year? You haven't considered my reply on it-are the events in Heaven subject to time? God ceetainly isn't, and it would make sense then that, being in His presence, we won't be either. John is taken from a time 2,000 yhears past, and given to witness the events that as yet haven't occurred, so apparently, there is no binding of time there. So while to us the judgment may take thousands of years, to time here, what, a day is as a thousand years? And a thousand years as a day? We may experience what seems a great passing of time, virtually none may pass here on earth.

 

Basically from scripture, all we know is that it MUST occur, it would seem, before Jesus returns to earth to reign. So, as I said before, it coukd be taking place surrently as believers die and go to Heaven, or it could all be at once after the rapture, and may take no time at all by earth's reckoning. Again, not seeing the prOBlem.

 

We seem to run often on long-term assumptions: the judgment seat of Christ as a huge auditorium full of all belevers of all time, waiting their turn. That's not scirpture, and honestly, I would think maybe the Lord would be a bit more efficient than this. Why have people in heaven for 2000, 1000, 100 years, waiting around doing who-knows-what, and wait to judge them all at one time? Why not assume the Lord is wise enough to judge them as they come?  The only judgments that are clearly shown to occur at one time, are the GWT judgmet and the judgment of the nations. Once a believer dies, what's the wait? 

   And again, we are trying to put linear constraints on that which will prOBably NOT be subject to such. Again, assumptions is really what we are talking about in this subject-I have just chosen to stop assuming and study the Bible. NOTHING says we won't be present on earth during the tribulation period. Nothing. Assumption. NOWHERE di we see anything that looks vaguely like a catching up of the saints anywhere in scripture except Rev 14-assumption that it takes place at an unspecified time causes us to soundly reject that and try to fit other meanings to it, or ignore it altogether.  Assumption that Matt 25 is only speaking of Jews causes us to reject that this is the rapture AFTER the days of great tribulation, and thus, an actual second rapture/resurrection that is really only part of the first, must then be fit into our theology.  ,

 

 

You did that which most do when confronted with an opposing view. You continue to argue your point, completes ignoring the post on why the Rapture cannot be after the Trib. You just blindly went on debating yourself and espousing your view.

 

 

 

I figured as much.

 

God bless,

calvary

[Covenanter]

Let's agree before we disagree

 

We believe God is King over all creation, & Jesus ascended to his throne at God's right hand;

Jesus rose bodily from the dead, & ascended bodily into heaven [that stretches my understanding, for he is in no way limited by his body in time or space, but is omnipresent with us always];

Jesus will return in person, in glory for resurrection & judgment;

The final state is an eternal NH&NE of perfect righteousness & peace inhabited by all & only the redeemed among mankind, & angelic beings;

God made promises to Abraham concerning becoming a great nation, possessing the land, & being a blessing for all families on earth, those promises being repeated throughout the OT;

the promises & prophecies were & are fulfilled in & through Jesus Christ & his saving work, and are appropriated by repentance & faith in Jesus Christ.

 

That's a start ...

 

[Gorship]

 

¹⁴And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.  (Reaping Number One)

¹⁷And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. (Reaping Number Two)

 

We see here two very specific reapings-twice a sickle is thrust into the earth, and twice we see something reaped. In the case of that which Jesus reaped, we see notning said about what is done with them. In the case of the angel's reaping, we see them cast into the winepress of God's wrath. There is no way this can be construed as a single reaping-two reapers, two sickles, two thrustings, two reapings. One is believers, the other is unbelievers.

 

my eschatology isnt very strong, but couldnt this simply be those who have become believers during this time reaped, and then the casting down of the Anti-christ and all those with him in the second.  Or even the bundling of tares in the first and the putting them into the winepress second.

[candlelight]

Interesting info - I heard this once years ago - JerUSAlem. I thought it kinda cool.

 

I was a Facebook administrator on a site called, JerUSAlem - United Israel Peace.  Another IFB and myself formed a group six years ago to help the nation of Israel.  We made t-shirts and stickers and sold them via the internet, to send to an IFB missionary in Israel to help the children with P.T.S.D. - Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Syndrome.  We also got the gospel out to the children through our ministry.  For those who don't know, many children in Israel suffer from P.T.S.D. because of the many rockets coming in from the "Palestinians" on a daily basis.  Sirens go off and the children hide under their desks in school, and many Israelis and Jews have to go into bomb shelters so they aren't murdered.  

[Ukulelemike]

You did that which most do when confronted with an opposing view. You continue to argue your point, completes ignoring the post on why the Rapture cannot be after the Trib. You just blindly went on debating yourself and espousing your view.

 

 

 

I figured as much.

 

God bless,

calvary

Except you didn't give asny reasons the rapture can't be after the tribulation. Keep in mind, I am talking about a post-trib/pre wrath position, because the Bible clearly shows a separation, or, if you will, a portion OF the tribuation as being the outpouring of wrath. It is before this that I see the rapture occurring, NOT all the way at the end when Jesus returns. So maybe you have misuderstood my point from the start.

  Your primary point, I believe, as to why it couldn't be, was because, when would the judgment be? I answered that, and you ignored my reply. So I reiterated it and expanded it. You said the rev 14 events were prOBably one event, not two, I explained why they were clearly two events and bult upon that. You said trump doesn equal trumpet, I explained why it must..

 

Allow me to repeat, verbatim, errors of spelling included, from my answer to what you asked, which perhaps you missed some of:

 

"Yes, the beast will be judged before the nations, which will be before the believers. That's fine-no conflict here. If the events of Rev 14 are the rapture, as I believe, we must ask ourselves, how long does the wrath take, after which Jesus returns to judge the beast and nations? A day? A week? A month? A year? You haven't considered my reply on it-are the events in Heaven subject to time? God ceetainly isn't, and it would make sense then that, being in His presence, we won't be either. John is taken from a time 2,000 yhears past, and given to witness the events that as yet haven't occurred, so apparently, there is no binding of time there. So while to us the judgment may take thousands of years, to time here, what, a day is as a thousand years? And a thousand years as a day? We may experience what seems a great passing of time, virtually none may pass here on earth.

 

Basically from scripture, all we know is that it MUST occur, it would seem, before Jesus returns to earth to reign. So, as I said before, it coukd be taking place surrently as believers die and go to Heaven, or it could all be at once after the rapture, and may take no time at all by earth's reckoning. Again, not seeing the prOBlem.

 

We seem to run often on long-term assumptions: the judgment seat of Christ as a huge auditorium full of all belevers of all time, waiting their turn. That's not scirpture, and honestly, I would think maybe the Lord would be a bit more efficient than this. Why have people in heaven for 2000, 1000, 100 years, waiting around doing who-knows-what, and wait to judge them all at one time? Why not assume the Lord is wise enough to judge them as they come?  The only judgments that are clearly shown to occur at one time, are the GWT judgmet and the judgment of the nations. Once a believer dies, what's the wait? 

   And again, we are trying to put linear constraints on that which will prOBably NOT be subject to such. Again, assumptions is really what we are talking about in this subject-I have just chosen to stop assuming and study the Bible. NOTHING says we won't be present on earth during the tribulation period. Nothing. Assumption. NOWHERE di we see anything that looks vaguely like a catching up of the saints anywhere in scripture except Rev 14-assumption that it takes place at an unspecified time causes us to soundly reject that and try to fit other meanings to it, or ignore it altogether.  Assumption that Matt 25 is only speaking of Jews causes us to reject that this is the rapture AFTER the days of great tribulation, and thus, an actual second rapture/resurrection that is really only part of the first, must then be fit into our theology."  ,

 

So maybe tell me why you assume all believers must be judged at one time for the works of their lives. Tell me why there is an assumption that perhaps there won't be time, if time appears to mean nothing in scripture.