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You seem to suggest that only adultery can be committed in the heart and/or that married men can only commit adultery but not fornicate.

 

Matt. 15:19-  For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 

It all comes from the heart and thoughts.

Yeah it does kind of sound like that.

 

NO, The point I am clumsily trying to make, is that, while adultery can be of the heart OR the flesh, then becoming fornication as well, fornication is strictly of the flesh. Now certainly, fornication dirives from adultery of the heart, but that domain is between you and the Lord, as far as the consequences are concerned, while fornication has now officially and manifestly made the breech in the marriage.

 

Like what I asid about the hate/murder thing: We can hate a brother without a cause, and be seen of God as a murderer in heart, but we can't be tried in court for that. However, when that hate breaks forth into physical assault or murder, THEN the courts can try us and find us guilty. Yes, murder is borne out of hate, generally, but hate alone cannot cause us to be judged by man, only God. So adultery which can be of the heart, while IN the heart, its still adultery, but we are judged then of God, but fornication, when it manifests in flesh, can then find physical judgment.

 

That's the best way I can explain it.

 

Also, in reference to the verse, adultery and fornication are separated, because adultery is not always fornication,  and fornication is not always adultery-sometimes adultery is only of the heart, and sometimes, fornication is done where there is no marriage involved, thus no adultery.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Yeah it does kind of sound like that.

NO, The point I am clumsily trying to make, is that, while adultery can be of the heart OR the flesh, then becoming fornication as well, fornication is strictly of the flesh. Now certainly, fornication dirives from adultery of the heart, but that domain is between you and the Lord, as far as the consequences are concerned, while fornication has now officially and manifestly made the breech in the marriage.

Like what I asid about the hate/murder thing: We can hate a brother without a cause, and be seen of God as a murderer in heart, but we can't be tried in court for that. However, when that hate breaks forth into physical assault or murder, THEN the courts can try us and find us guilty. Yes, murder is borne out of hate, generally, but hate alone cannot cause us to be judged by man, only God. So adultery which can be of the heart, while IN the heart, its still adultery, but we are judged then of God, but fornication, when it manifests in flesh, can then find physical judgment.

That's the best way I can explain it.

Also, in reference to the verse, adultery and fornication are separated, because adultery is not always fornication, and fornication is not always adultery-sometimes adultery is only of the heart, and sometimes, fornication is done where there is no marriage involved, thus no adultery.


Adultery, when it becomes physical, becomes fornication.
Pornography viewing is physical, and is adultery, for a married man.

We can't judge the inward thoughts of any brother, but we are to judge the outward expression of those thoughts.

Anishinaabe

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Adultery, when it becomes physical, becomes fornication.
Pornography viewing is physical, and is adultery, for a married man.

We can't judge the inward thoughts of any brother, but we are to judge the outward expression of those thoughts.

Anishinaabe

Whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her in his heart. Isn't this exactly what viewing pornography is? Jesus calls it of the heart.

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The terms of Adultery and Fornication are so closely related in the Bible that one generally does not go without the other. 

 

Mt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
 

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The terms of Adultery and Fornication are so closely related in the Bible that one generally does not go without the other. 

 

Mt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
.

 

I disagree with not just this post but most of this thread that deals with adultery.

Adultery and fornication have almost nothing to do with each other.

The verses quoted above are completely misinterpreted by most if not all Christians IMO.

 

Hints:

Adultery is a turning of the heart away from someone

Fornication is a sin of sex only

 

Can anyone guess where I am going with this?

 

Here is another hint from your own common sense:

 

Since when has sex ever been a thing of the heart for a man?

Since when has sex NOT been a thing of the heart with a woman (unless she is a harlot (whore) or taken advantage of-doped up)?

 

Think about it

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I disagree with not just this post but most of this thread that deals with adultery.
Adultery and fornication have almost nothing to do with each other.
The verses quoted above are completely misinterpreted by most if not all Christians IMO.

Hints:
Adultery is a turning of the heart away from someone
Fornication is a sin of sex only

Can anyone guess where I am going with this?

Here is another hint from your own common sense:

Since when has sex ever been a thing of the heart for a man?
Since when has sex NOT been a thing of the heart with a woman (unless she is a harlot (whore) or taken advantage of-doped up)?

Think about it

Not a
100% with you, but you are closer than most to this.

Adultery has a definition : marital infidelity.

Fornication is a much broader category, it includes any sexual sin.

A man commits adultery, in his heart, when he LOOKS on a woman, to lust after her.
Pornography is adultery.

But.....

Nowhere, ever, is a woman told that she is allowed to put away her husband.



Anishinaabe

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Not a
100% with you, but you are closer than most to this.

Adultery has a definition : marital infidelity.

Fornication is a much broader category, it includes any sexual sin.

A man commits adultery, in his heart, when he LOOKS on a woman, to lust after her.
Pornography is adultery.

But.....

Nowhere, ever, is a woman told that she is allowed to put away her husband.



Anishinaabe

 

Agreed,

 

I am also thinking on this line:

 

Jesus Himself expresses a distinct difference between fornication and adultery within the same verses.

 

If adultery is a sin of the heart and mind and not a sin of sex itself. Which I believe since the Bible clearly states we can commit adultery against the Lord, then consider:

 

I believe the Lord refers to the man's fornication in these verses

 

Mt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery

 

Here is the example: Man has sex outside of marriage with harlot (s), (sex only, no heart feelings - fornication) but still loves and wants his wife: wife finds out and is inconsolable and will not stop making man's life unbearable because of it; man divorces wife because of her reaction; wife falls out of love with man (turns from man to another man in heart - adultery)

 

Reason: Why would God not have simply written "saving for the cause of adultery" if how we traditionally look at these passages is correct?

 

Reasoning: as I stated in the post above

 

Since when has sex ever been a thing of the heart for a man?
Since when has sex NOT been a thing of the heart with a woman (unless she is a harlot (whore) or taken advantage of-doped up)?

 

In conclusion:

 

I feel the Lord is referring to a triple, even quad sin on the part of the man over the man's need to have sex with various women:

1. Man fornicates with harlots

2. Man divorces wife because she is inconsolable over it

3. Man causes wife to turn her heart away from him and to another (her adultery) but MAN was the cause of it

4. Man now turns his heart away from wife to another woman and remarries (his adultery).

 

Up until 100 years ago, it was not legal or heard of for a woman to put away her husband even in this country. To this day in most of the world it is still not legal.

Certainly 2000 years ago the only recourse a spurned married woman had against a cheating husband was to react this way and force him to divorce her.
 

Admittedly, not one of my better theories but still something to think about.

 

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I have heard preaching time and time again that "fornication" can only be committed before marriage. I don't think so.

I know of a man, awesome singer, beautiful family, who was asked to sing a special program at our former church, and was later put in prison for molesting his kids. A young man who once rode my church bus later married, then was sent to prison for the same. I could tell you of two others affiliated with my own church. Is molesting your kids "adultery"? I know of a man who one day told his wife that he "liked men" and that was along about the time the AIDS virus hit the headlines. Was he simply an adulterer? 

 

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

The Sodomites were not merely having premarital relations, they were depraved perverts. That's what "fornication" is. Any married man who commits perversion, not just "adultery", is committing fornication. Therefore, if "Hubby" is chasing prostitutes, homosexuals, another woman or any other dangerous behavior, the "except it be" clause protects "Mom" from STD's. If "Dad" is a child molester, it protects the children. He needs to be "put away". Actually, he would be stoned in the OT. Adultery is just a specific KIND of fornication....a perversion.

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I have heard preaching time and time again that "fornication" can only be committed before marriage. I don't think so.
I know of a man, awesome singer, beautiful family, who was asked to sing a special program at our former church, and was later put in prison for molesting his kids. A young man who once rode my church bus later married, then was sent to prison for the same. I could tell you of two others affiliated with my own church. Is molesting your kids "adultery"? I know of a man who one day told his wife that he "liked men" and that was along about the time the AIDS virus hit the headlines. Was he simply an adulterer?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The Sodomites were not merely having premarital relations, they were depraved perverts. That's what "fornication" is. Any married man who commits perversion, not just "adultery", is committing fornication. Therefore, if "Hubby" is chasing prostitutes, homosexuals, another woman or any other dangerous behavior, the "except it be" clause protects "Mom" from STD's. If "Dad" is a child molester, it protects the children. He needs to be "put away". Actually, he would be stoned in the OT. Adultery is just a specific KIND of fornication....a perversion.

The "except it be clause" was not extended to Mom.

Anishinaabe

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If you study the word "fornication" in scripture you'll notice it is usually the word used associated with prostitutes. There's also a religious aspect to it in many cases. 

 

I find it interesting too, that though David had 22 wives only in the case of Bathsheba was he considered an adulterer. 

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We should also keep in mind that in God's perfect plan, as Jesus pointed out, there should be no divorce for any reason.

Yes, if we all re-lied on the Holy Spirit to choose our spouse, and not our emotions, we would never have the need for divorce 'cause God won't make a mistake in His choosing. 

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No one, who has never been married, can be a bishop...God's rules, deal with it. 1Ti 3:2 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sOBer, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1Ti 3:4-5 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) "Must" means "must" There are plenty of Gifts, and Calling for single men, just no Offices. Anishinaabe

I thought most in this forum believed the Bible to be the literal Word of God?  How can we say we believe it is literal and then try to find a loop hole with a word as easy to understand as "must"? 

 

As far as the arguement that there have been people saved under the preaching of divorced men, it ain't the divorced man that saves, it is the Holy Spirit convicting the person's heart.  A stopped clock is right twice aday.  There has been people saved under unsaved preachers.  That is not a good arguement for ignoring God's Word.  The church that had some saved under the divorced man, you never know, had they OBeyed God, God might have blessed that church into becoming a huge church seeing hundreds maybe thousands saved.  OBedience will bring blessings more so than disOBedience. 

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A married person can commit fornication and adultery

 

 

I have found (over the past 40+ years) that showing people the differences in the wording between the Holy Bible and the per-versions is the most effective way to convince people who are genuinely interested in the truth that the modern bibles are corrupt and untrustworthy.

However, I believe that the definition given for the word “fornication” is in error.

According to the Holy Bible, when a married person engages in sexual intercourse with someone other than their spouse they are engaged in fornication.

Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Since the Scriptures clearly distinguish between the words “fornication” and “adultery” [Galatians 5:19], the definition of the word “fornication” was assumed to be “Sexual intercourse between unmarried people”; but since, according to the Bible, a married person - a wife in the case of Matthew 5:32 & Matthew 19:9 - can commit fornication, the definition of fornication would have to be: “Illicit (illegal or unlawful) sexual intercourse outside of marriage.

•  When two unmarried people engage sexual intercourse they are guilty of committing the sin of “fornication”.

•  When a married person engages in sexual intercourse with someone other than their spouse they are not only guilty of committing the sin of “fornication”, but they are also guilty of committing the sin of “adultery” – because they have adulterated the marriage bond or covenant.

•  Only married people can commit the sin of adultery. While anyone (single or married) who engages in “illicit (illegal or unlawful) sexual intercourse outside of marriage” is guilty of the sin of fornication.

Like I said the two terms go together.

 

But I hope this is helpful.

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Interesting point made by ROBmac.

 

So the bearing of fruit in a Bible Believing Church is directly related to their OBedience of the Scriptures?

 

If little fruit or continual trouble in the Church, then the Pastor is not Scripturally qualified to Pastor? Perhaps he has just been fooling himself all along with purposely misinterpreting the qualifications of the office. There are several quals, not just divorce.

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Interesting point made by ROBmac.

 

So the bearing of fruit in a Bible Believing Church is directly related to their OBedience of the Scriptures?

 

 

Isn't that the best measure of the health of a local church?  Your second statement which is not quoted, about "continued trouble" disqualifying the pastor, well, that has to be defined.  Pastors are always dealing with trouble, the flock is made up of sinners with all kinds of prOBlems.  But missing or misuse of funds, collapse of separation among the members, a worldly congregation, rock music, etc., yes, those are signs that the pastor has failed in his duties.     

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Yet Jesus didn't say God allowed divorce because of those sins, but because of the hardness of hearts. Jesus also made it clear that the original model of marriage for life, no divorce, was best.

 

One of the key aspects of being a follower of Christ is forgiveness and self-sacrifice. We don't have to get a divorce because our spouse committed adultery or fornication yet that's all too often the first response rather than the last consideration.

 

Just as with the lost, many Christian divorces have nothing to do with "the exception clause". Christian couples run to a lost judge in a worldly court due to their own self-centeredness.

 

This is why we need to be teaching congregations what biblical sacrifice is all about, what putting ones spouse ahead of themselves means biblically.

 

Too often Christians follow the same pattern of courtship and marriage as the world does, and then they follow them in the same manner with divorce.

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