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DaveW

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The KJV limits the definition. A testament requires the death of the testator (Hebrews 9) while a covenant does not.

 

The new covenant is dependent upon the new testament but they are NOT the same thing.

 

You sure can get things muddled up messing with the Greek. 

 

Not really. If you keep reading down in vv. 18-20 you'll see that the first testament did not involve the death of the testator (God) but rather of calves and goats and should realize that v. 17 is an illustration in that particular instance that in order for a will to take effect the person who wrote it must be dead. If you stick too close to the "last will" definition of "testament" you have to explain why it remains in effect if the testator is no longer dead, but lives. Also, if testament is not the same as covenant, then you need to be able to explain what the first testament was because the first occurrence of "testament" is found in Matthew 26:28. In ALL languages, the context it's used in determines meaning, not a presupposition of what you want it to mean.

 

You sure can get things muddled up with a poor understanding of English...

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What is a "covenant" & what is a "testament" in Biblical usage?

 

Is the any significance in the AV translators using "testament" in Hebrews 9, when they quote from Exodus 24 where "covenant" is used?

 

How does the "ark of the covenant" of the OT become "the ark of his testament" in Rev. 11? Are they the same?

 

Why in the Lord's supper does Jesus speak of "my blood of the new testament" when the is no OT prophecy of a "new testament"?

 

Why in Hebrews is "testament" used in Heb. 9, but "covenant" used elsewhere in the letter & throughout the OT?

 

If we are to understand Scripture we need to consider these questions. The easy answer is that in AV usage, "covenant" & "testament" are synonyms, but that where the force of a legacy is intended, "testament" is used.

 

We need to look at the OT usage in order to understand "covenant" & why that normally involved a divided sacrifice or shared meal. e.g. Gen. 8/9, 15, Jer. 34. Then look at the Lord's supper ....

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

What is a "covenant" & what is a "testament" in Biblical usage?

Is the any significance in the AV translators using "testament" in Hebrews 9, when they quote from Exodus 24 where "covenant" is used?

How does the "ark of the covenant" of the OT become "the ark of his testament" in Rev. 11? Are they the same?

Why in the Lord's supper does Jesus speak of "my blood of the new testament" when the is no OT prophecy of a "new testament"?

Why in Hebrews is "testament" used in Heb. 9, but "covenant" used elsewhere in the letter & throughout the OT?

If we are to understand Scripture we need to consider these questions. The easy answer is that in AV usage, "covenant" & "testament" are synonyms, but that where the force of a legacy is intended, "testament" is used.

We need to look at the OT usage in order to understand "covenant" & why that normally involved a divided sacrifice or shared meal. e.g. Gen. 8/9, 15, Jer. 34. Then look at the Lord's supper ....

Isn't a covenant an agreement between 2 or more parties?
Isn't a testament an official declaration of a testimony, covenant, Will, etc?

Anishinaabe

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What is a "covenant" & what is a "testament" in Biblical usage?

 

Is the any significance in the AV translators using "testament" in Hebrews 9, when they quote from Exodus 24 where "covenant" is used?

 

How does the "ark of the covenant" of the OT become "the ark of his testament" in Rev. 11? Are they the same?

 

Why in the Lord's supper does Jesus speak of "my blood of the new testament" when the is no OT prophecy of a "new testament"?

 

Why in Hebrews is "testament" used in Heb. 9, but "covenant" used elsewhere in the letter & throughout the OT?

 

If we are to understand Scripture we need to consider these questions. The easy answer is that in AV usage, "covenant" & "testament" are synonyms, but that where the force of a legacy is intended, "testament" is used.

 

We need to look at the OT usage in order to understand "covenant" & why that normally involved a divided sacrifice or shared meal. e.g. Gen. 8/9, 15, Jer. 34. Then look at the Lord's supper ....

 

If I remember correctly, the KLV was translated by various committees, some doing one part and others doing another.  These were then reviewed by others. 

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If I remember correctly, the KLV was translated by various committees, some doing one part and others doing another.  These were then reviewed by others. 

Fantastic! A 400 year memory - Iknow you are older than me, but really .... :)

 

But that may account for the selection of words, & "covenant" & "testament" being used synonymously for direct quotes.

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Be careful!

Anishinaabe

Actually there is no prOBlem here:

"Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:" (Ex 12:5)

 A goat kid and a lamb were used interchangably as the Pesach sacrifice, so He could just as properly be considered the Kid of God, though of course the Bible DOES use the term Lamb when referring to Christ, so its better. But there would be no disresepect in calling Him otherwise, unless, of course, it was meant as such.

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There is plenty to study, before we argue :)

What is a "covenant" & what is a "testament" in Biblical usage?

Basically a covenant is made by a stronger party with a weaker party - particularly God with man.

1. It may be unconditional, such as the rainbow covenant, whereby no disOBedience by man can stop either the seasonal cycle or bring about another glOBal flood.

2. It may be conditional on OBedience, as with Adam in the garden, where he would live in a perfect situation except he ate the forbidden fruit.

3. In Gen. 15, God makes a covenant with Abraham to give his descendants the promised land. That was unconditional. It shows a feature of many covenants in that a sacrifice was made & divided. God passed between the pieces to guarantee the covenant - if I break it, I die.

4. Gen. 17 - circumcision was given as an everlasting covenant sign that required OBedience - circumcision. Neglect of circumcision broke the covenant, & such were cut off from his people. 

5. God remembers his covenant promises & undertakes to deliver his people. The Passover was a form of conditional covenant - requiring OBedience to the details of the sacrifice - or death for disOBedience.

6. Ex. 19 Now Israel is a nation, & Moses is given promises & laws for the people. God declares his love in the deliverance, & calls for a promise of OBedience to his covenant - details as yet unspecified. Of course they respond. Note that those covenant blessings are taken up by Peter for the church - of Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God.

7. Ex. 24 The requirements of the Law have been stated & the covenant is ratified by the blood of sacrifice. The people have heard the Law & declare their commitment to OBedience. The blood of sacrifice is sprinkled on them, & God's acceptance is shown by a vision of his heavenly glory. That "blood of the (old) covenant" is contrasted with the final sacricial blood of Jesus, & Heb. 13 speaks of "the blood of the everlasting covenant." The "new covenant" of Jer. 31 & Heb. 8 is seen as the "everlasting covenant." Salvation throughout history is only through the blod of Jesus. The death & resurrection & ascension of is indeed & in fact the death for the broken covenant suffered by Jesus as the Son of man.

8. Lev. 26 restates the old covenant - requiring OBedience - & includes a special feature taken up throughout Scripture. "I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people." Your God - my people is a statement of our special relationship that continues with the redeemed throughout time & eternity. See 2 Cor. 6 & Rev. 21 as well as Jer. 31, & Ez. 36 & 37

 

I hope that is a useful start to understanding covenant theology - from the Bible only. There must be a book somewhere - I could write a lot more - there are 300 refs. to Covenant in Scripture, before we get on to testament.  

There is a "slant" to the use of "testament" rather than covenant & I suggest it is with an implied will (legacy) where believers benefit from Jesus' death, inheriting all the promises to Abraham. (Gal. 3)         

 

Is the any significance in the AV translators using "testament" in Hebrews 9, when they quote from Exodus 24 where "covenant" is used?

Heb. argument is the "will" aspect of the death of Jesus, compared with the will of a man - requiring death to take effect. Without the death of Jesus, all the covenant promises would fail - we are all law/covenant breakers. Translating "covenant" would need more explanation, but would not change the meaning.

 

How does the "ark of the covenant" of the OT become "the ark of his testament" in Rev. 11? Are they the same?

The ark in the tabernacle was made according to the heavenly pattern. I don't think they are the same, but the words used are not significant.   

 

Why in the Lord's supper does Jesus speak of "my blood of the new testament" when the is no OT prophecy of a "new testament"?

Again, it is the "will" aspect, but if "covenant" were used, it doesn't change the significance of the Lord's supper. There is so much to say about that precious time of remembrance.

 

Why in Hebrews is "testament" used in Heb. 9, but "covenant" used elsewhere in the letter & throughout the OT?

See above.

 

If we are to understand Scripture we need to consider these questions. The easy answer is that in AV usage, "covenant" & "testament" are synonyms, but that where the force of a legacy is intended, "testament" is used.

 

We need to look at the OT usage in order to understand "covenant" & why that normally involved a divided sacrifice or shared meal. e.g. Gen. 8/9, 15, Jer. 34. Then look at the Lord's supper ....

There are a number of human covenants - normally involving agreement & a sacrifice or shared meal (JacOB & Laban, the Gibeonites & Joshua, the Jewish slave-owners (Jer. 34))

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Just to address the OP, I think commentaries can be a valuable tool so long as proper discernment is exercised. For example, I wouldn't want to read a commentary that was written by Catholics, because it would be skewed in their bias. Same with a Charismatic one. I think Joyce Meyer has a Bible commentary. I wouldn't touch that with a 10ft pole. I have a John MacArthur commentary, but I rarely use it. It was a gift from a loved one, and it was expensive, so I can't bear to just discard it. Still, I have to be careful. MacArthur teeters on Calvinistic and he uses either the NKJV or NAS (I can't remember which is used in my updated edition of the commentary). 

 

My favorite is the J. Vernon McGee set of commentaries. Our head deacon uses these in preparation to teach his Sunday school class. I can't remember which one my pastor uses, but it's another solid KJV commentary that is rather well known. I also use an older version Scofield Study Bible. I try and use it mainly for the purpose of definitions for words I may not be familiar with and find where certain passages correspond to another passage. The chain referencing is particularly helpful.

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Actually they are largely synonymous in both languages. You have to limit the English definition to support your point above. I'll use only the English Webster's 1828 for "testament" to demonstrate since you don't like Greek:

 

"the name of each general division of the canonical books of the sacred Scriptures; as the Old Testament; the New Testament. The name is equivalent to covenant, and in our use of it, we apply it to the books which contain the old and new dispensations; that of Moses, and that of Jesus Christ."

Things that are different are not the same/synonymous.

 

A testament remains in effect after the death of the testator

 

A covenant ends when one of the covenanted partners dies.  That is why you will find that God swore by himself to Abraham because Abraham would die but God cannot so his covenant is forever.

 

The blood of the New Testament is not a New Covenant.  While going to the Greek you will find it equivalent you need to study out the the differences using only the Bible Definitions not Webster's and not Strong's.

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Now hold on there, Ma'am. I most certainly Do believe in a catching away of the saints. I just happen to reject the pre-tribulation catching, for a post-trib/pre-wrath catch. If you're going to name names, please keep your facts straight. IN fact, the reason I believe as I do is because there is more evidence of the event of Rev 14:14 as the catching away, because nowhere else in scripture do we see anything like it, but here. Despite an earlier comment by AVBB that 1Thes 4 teaches a pre-trib rapture, all it teaches is the FACT of the rapture-it has nothing at all to do with the time.

 

Revelation 14:14?  

 

'And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle." ~ Revelation 14:14

The white cloud, in this scripture, is talking about the saints (us) who have already been "caught up" in the pre-trib rapture.  The whole pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, etc.  are man made sayings, though.  That is where the confusion lies.  There is only one "rapture".  The word of God speaks for itself.  I have posted numerous scriptures, in another thread, that point to a pre-trib rapture.  I don't even like saying pre-trib, b/c as I said, it is man made.  The rapture is imminent.  The Lord will save us from the wrath to come, as evident in numerous scriptures throughout the KJV.  Also, the scripture below should be noted.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; (secret); We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed,  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:  for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ~ I Corinthians 15-51

So, are the "dead" who are raised incorruptible, going to walk around the earth like zombies?  Think about it.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep.  16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  the dead in Christ shall rise first:  17 Then we which are caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  18 Wherefore, comfort (cheer) one another with these words." ~ I Thessalonians 4:16-18  

You know these scriptures, Ukelelemike.  However, you are not reading Revelation 14:14 correctly.  The words, "white cloud"  should cast some light on the subject, though.

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From my discussion with Covenanter, I understand that he does believe that we will be caught up to meet with the Lord in the air. 

 

You've got to be kidding me, Invicta.  Covenanter doesn't believe in the rapture of the saints.  He referred to it as the "fake rapture" in many posts.

Besides, Calvinists aren't "rightly dividing the word of truth."  When are Calvinists going to see that preterism is not a Biblical doctrine?  

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Things that are different are not the same/synonymous.

 

A testament remains in effect after the death of the testator

 

A covenant ends when one of the covenanted partners dies.  That is why you will find that God swore by himself to Abraham because Abraham would die but God cannot so his covenant is forever.

 

The blood of the New Testament is not a New Covenant.  While going to the Greek you will find it equivalent you need to study out the the differences using only the Bible Definitions not Webster's and not Strong's.

 

You don't like Greek (which I purposefully didn't use here because you would dismiss it anyway) and you don't like English. Ok, fine. Please show me chapter and verse where the Bible re-defines "testament" and "covenant" the way you're making the distinction. There are no instances of "a covenant is..." or "a testament is.." To my recollection, the Bible doesn't come with its own dictionary so I'm not sure how you can know what any of the words really mean if you don't use the English definitions? Is the Bible written in English or in its own language? You can't have it both ways.

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Actually there is no prOBlem here:
"Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:" (Ex 12:5)
A goat kid and a lamb were used interchangably as the Pesach sacrifice, so He could just as properly be considered the Kid of God, though of course the Bible DOES use the term Lamb when referring to Christ, so its better. But there would be no disresepect in calling Him otherwise, unless, of course, it was meant as such.

Not what I meant. Jesus can make Covenants, and can have a Testament. An animal cannot.

Anishinaabe

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Revelation 14:14?

'And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle." ~ Revelation 14:14

The white cloud, in this scripture, is talking about the saints (us) who have already been "caught up" in the pre-trib rapture. The whole pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, etc. are man made sayings, though. That is where the confusion lies. There is only one "rapture". The word of God speaks for itself. I have posted numerous scriptures, in another thread, that point to a pre-trib rapture. I don't even like saying pre-trib, b/c as I said, it is man made. The rapture is imminent. The Lord will save us from the wrath to come, as evident in numerous scriptures throughout the KJV. Also, the scripture below should be noted.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; (secret); We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." ~ I Corinthians 15-51

So, are the "dead" who are raised incorruptible, going to walk around the earth like zombies? Think about it.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore, comfort (cheer) one another with these words." ~ I Thessalonians 4:16-18

You know these scriptures, Ukelelemike. However, you are not reading Revelation 14:14 correctly. The words, "white cloud" should cast some light on the subject, though.

So John saw Jesus sitting on the Saints?
Weird!

Anishinaabe

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So John saw Jesus sitting on the Saints?sio
Weird!

Anishinaabe

 

So, if this is John's vision, then what is ukelelemike talking about with Revelation 14:14?  I don't understand where he stands with the "catching away."

In fact, I would like ukelelemike to answer this question, not you, prophet.

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How can there be seven trumpts sounding during the tribulation AFTER the LAST trump is sounded when the rapture takes place at the beginning of the tribulation?  How many "Last" trumpets can there be?

And why are there more questions than answers???????????

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