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         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

The Bible Only?


DaveW

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I don't believe that anyone on here does not believe that we will be caught away to meet the Lord in the air.  Trouble is many add to that.

 

Covenanter and Ukelelemike don't believe in it, Invicta.  This whole not believing in the "catching away" is news for me with IFB's.  I can understand it with Covenanter, but not Ukelelemike.

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I don't believe that anyone on here does not believe that we will be caught away to meet the Lord in the air.  Trouble is many add to that.

I believe in the rapture, but don't agree with the timing.  That said, whenever the rapture is we will both be going.  The only difference in us is that being post-trib, I will be surprised at being taken up because I have not yet seen the Anti-Christ in the temple whereas the pre-trib person will not be surprised. 

 

God bless,

Larry

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Covenanter and Ukelelemike don't believe in it, Invicta.  This whole not believing in the "catching away" is news for me with IFB's.  I can understand it with Covenanter, but not Ukelelemike.

Now hold on there, Ma'am. I most certainly Do believe in a catching away of the saints. I just happen to reject the pre-tribulation catching, for a post-trib/pre-wrath catch. If you're going to name names, please keep your facts straight. IN fact, the reason I believe as I do is because there is more evidence of the event of Rev 14:14 as the catching away, because nowhere else in scripture do we see anything like it, but here. Despite an earlier comment by AVBB that 1Thes 4 teaches a pre-trib rapture, all it teaches is the FACT of the rapture-it has nothing at all to do with the time.

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Well Covenanter, your use of the word "signified" to make Revelation a symbolic book is unjustified in the text.

After that word is used there are quite plainly some (many) references which are literal, not symbolic, therefore to blindly symbolise the whole book is just wrong.
Secondly there are events described in great detail which have not been recorded in history, but which, because of their scale, would not possibly have been missed in the historical record.

 

I wonder if some people ever read the bible.

 

The book of Revelation is filled with symbols, some explained in the text and others use the same symbols asi used in other.   books of the bible.

 

You don't have to read too far in the book of revelation before you find symbols.

 

Rev. 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
 
Two symbols and their explanation are give here.
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Covenanter and Ukelelemike don't believe in it, Invicta.  This whole not believing in the "catching away" is news for me with IFB's.  I can understand it with Covenanter, but not Ukelelemike.

 

From my discussion with Covenanter, I understand that he does believe that we will be caught up to meet with the Lord in the air. 

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I wonder if some people ever read the bible.

The book of Revelation is filled with symbols, some explained in the text and others use the same symbols asi used in other. books of the bible.

You don't have to read too far in the book of revelation before you find symbols.

Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Two symbols and their explanation are give here.


Yes, but NOT THE WHOLE BOOK.
That is my point. He takes a single words and thereafter applies that one word to the whole book, for the purposes of allowing him to twist any historical event to fit it.
There is much of Revelation that is not symbolic also, and the events recorded have not been seen in history and there is no way the historical record would have missed such massively described events.

I also wonder if people bother to read the Bible......
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All false religionists are worshiping Satan whether they realize it or not. It's such a terrible thing going on these days when many Christians are being sucked into the "Catholics are Christians too" big lie.

 

There is even one IFB church in a nearby small city that began a few years ago yoking with the local Catholic church (and other unsound churches) for political and local community and social needs.

Back in the late 19th century a Baptist preacher, I think his name was J W Philpot, wrote of a Baptist Church that was into occult practices.

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I went looking for sound New Testament Churches of the kind that Christ built and died for.  In one city I found several.  In another, none for many miles around.  

 

I did find many with the name Baptist that were man centered rock-n-roll emerging church entertainment complexes fooling the simple.  Egyptian bibles and when their statement of faith said the church began at pentecost, it revealed they were not baptist at all, just fakes.

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Yes, but NOT THE WHOLE BOOK.
That is my point. He takes a single words and thereafter applies that one word to the whole book, for the purposes of allowing him to twist any historical event to fit it.
There is much of Revelation that is not symbolic also, and the events recorded have not been seen in history and there is no way the historical record would have missed such massively described events.

I also wonder if people bother to read the Bible......

 

Yes I believe the whole book is signified.  Another term the bible uses for symbolism is "figure".

 

Ro 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
1Co 4:6  And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Heb 9:9  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 11:19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

Incidentally, I don't think that Covenenter does believe the whole book is signified, as in Rev. 1:20 it says that candlesticks are churches and I believe that the two witnesses are also figured as churches as they are also candlesticks.  They are also olive trees, another symbol.

 

The Roman church is the great enemy of the true church.  Rome is signified as a harlot where the true church is signified as a bride, Rome is signified as Mystery Babylon, the church as New Jerusalem.

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An incorrect view of when the gathering takes place allows for the judgement placed on Christ for our sins to be made null and void.  Hence an incorrect view of the gathering would allow for the blood bought saint, whose judgement for their sins were paid for on the cross, to go through part of the wrath of God during JacOB's trouble.  This wrath I am speaking of is not that which follows the GWT Judgement, for no blood bought saint will be judged at the GWT Judgement because the judgement of our sins was upon Christ which he bore in himself upon the cross.

 

 Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

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An incorrect view of when the gathering takes place allows for the judgement placed on Christ for our sins to be made null and void. Hence an incorrect view of the gathering would allow for the blood bought saint, whose judgement for their sins were paid for on the cross, to go through part of the wrath of God during JacOB's trouble. This wrath I am speaking of is not that which follows the GWT Judgement, for no blood bought saint will be judged at the GWT Judgement because the judgement of our sins was upon Christ which he bore in himself upon the cross. Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
You mean this Wrath? Luk 21:23-24 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Cuz this already happened, and now they are back in Israel Or do you mean this Wrath? Rev 6:12-17 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Cuz clearly the Lamb shows up, after the stars fall, before the Wrath starts: 'Who shall be able'...is still a future event at the moment it is spoken, with the Lamb looking down through the missing sky. Mat 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The Lamb sends His angels to reap His elect, while the people left on Earth mourn, because it is very OBvious to them that they will now face His Wrath. Of course, none of them will repent. Rev 9:20-21 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood:which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Praise God we aren't appointed to Wrath, just to suffer Tribulation. Rom 5:3 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also:knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Eph 3:13 13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. 2Th 1:4 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Jn 16:33 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation:but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Rom 12:12 12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; 2Th 1:4-8 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Our rest from them that trouble us comes when the Lord is revealed from Heaven, to take revenge on our persecutors. Let's see you try to say 2 Thes. wasn't written to the church. Anishinaabe
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You mean this Wrath? Luk 21:23-24 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Cuz this already happened, and now they are back in Israel Or do you mean this Wrath?

 

Without going into all your post I can say it all with this one example.

 

It will happen in the future as listed in the book of Revelation. 

 

having said that you would clearly benefit from studying the NT writings of Paul in deeper study and application.  Than misunderstanding the Book of Revelation. I think I mentioned over in How Do You Rightly Divide the Word of Truth thread there are ways of dividing it for study but it is not a book for a novice or someone who does not clearly understand how to rightly divide it will almost always lead to errors in understanding and application.

 

The term tribulation/tribulations used by Paul is not to be confused with the Great Tribulation known as JacOB's trouble.  For that which Paul speaks is personal or interpersonal tribulation which that spoken by Christ in the gospel books and Revelation is General tribulation of Israel and the world as a whole.

 

While Second Thess has more that is connected to the book of Revelation, you would do wise to study out the Term Elect and to whom it applies and at which time it applies differently to Israel and the Body of Christ and not confuse the two together.

 

A man who just died recently down in Tennessee I can't think of his name off hand but he has a big following but all based on the misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation.  I was banned because I took his teaching on their site and simply showed by the scriptures it was in error and that he had failure to rightly divide and his ability to wrongly join scriptures to make false teachings, and his example if a man taught that which was not of the word of God then his teaching was to be rejected.  In short I showed by his own teaching his teaching was to be rejected and the people were to follow God's word rather than him, just as he taught.

 

I am not sure but it seems from your post you have listened to his radio program or attended some of his Radio studies.

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An incorrect view of when the gathering takes place allows for the judgement placed on Christ for our sins to be made null and void.  Hence an incorrect view of the gathering would allow for the blood bought saint, whose judgement for their sins were paid for on the cross, to go through part of the wrath of God during JacOB's trouble.  This wrath I am speaking of is not that which follows the GWT Judgement, for no blood bought saint will be judged at the GWT Judgement because the judgement of our sins was upon Christ which he bore in himself upon the cross.

 

 Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

There is no question of believers suffering the wrath of God, whatever dispensational view we take. But as Anishinaabe points out, we do suffer tribulation, not from God, but that at the hands of the ungodly. See 2 Thes. 1. Believers suffer tribulation from the ungodly, but when Jesus returns, or they die, the ungodly will suffer wrath - final, total tribulation at the hands of God - hell-fire. Believers then will be fully vindicated & glorified.

 

As for JacOB's trouble, this was prophesied by Jeremiah towards the beginning of the captivity in Babylon. Rather than lift it out of context into a yet future dispensation, we can see it described in Esther, when Haman sought to totally destroy the Jews. 

 

By keeping to the Bible only, we can understand prophecy by what we read. We don't need to impose an interpetation system on Scripture.

 

Anishinaabe also points out that much of prophecy has occurred - particularly the Olivet prophecy of the destruction. While there are aspects of that prophecy that suggest a yet future fulfilment, we can see similar terminology used in the OT relating to destructions that are recorded in the OT.

 

e.g.

Mat. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Isaiah 13:The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. 

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 

.....

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light:
the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

.....

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place,
in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

.....

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ......

 

Dan. 5:30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

 

We can also see the seals judgement, & the deliverance of the 144,000 servants prophesied in Ezekiel:

Note - "earth" is the same word often used for the "land" of Israel, so the scale of destruction is local, & not the whole planet.

 

Rev. 6:And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

Eze. 14:21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

There is no question of believers suffering the wrath of God, whatever dispensational view we take. But as Anishinaabe points out, we do suffer tribulation, not from God, but that at the hands of the ungodly. See 2 Thes. 1. Believers suffer tribulation from the ungodly, but when Jesus returns, or they die, the ungodly will suffer wrath - final, total tribulation at the hands of God - hell-fire. Believers then will be fully vindicated & glorified.

 

As for JacOB's trouble, this was prophesied by Jeremiah towards the beginning of the captivity in Babylon. Rather than lift it out of context into a yet future dispensation, we can see it described in Esther, when Haman sought to totally destroy the Jews. 

 

By keeping to the Bible only, we can understand prophecy by what we read. We don't need to impose an interpetation system on Scripture.

 

Anishinaabe also points out that much of prophecy has occurred - particularly the Olivet prophecy of the destruction. While there are aspects of that prophecy that suggest a yet future fulfilment, we can see similar terminology used in the OT relating to destructions that are recorded in the OT.

 

e.g.

Mat. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Isaiah 13:The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. 

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. 

.....

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light:
the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

.....

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place,
in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

.....

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ......

 

Dan. 5:30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

 

We can also see the seals judgement, & the deliverance of the 144,000 servants prophesied in Ezekiel:

Note - "earth" is the same word often used for the "land" of Israel, so the scale of destruction is local, & not the whole planet.

 

Rev. 6:And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

Eze. 14:21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.

I have read and re read all the Major Prophets and though God did historically punish and scatter Israel he has still not brought them back in Peace to dwell in unfenced/unwalled cities, in perfect peace forever as it states in almost everyone of those books. 

 

So it is clear, if it was not fulfilled in the past then it must be in the future. Israel was brought back into the land and not once in 2450 years has there been a peaceful free Israel with a descendant of David on the throne.  And would be no reason for God to give revelation to John about past events that have already taken place, so it will be future.

 

I never said we, the body of Christ, don't suffer at the hands of unbelievers, I was talking about the WRATH of God which is punishment, which is both during the time of JacOB's trouble(the great tribulation) against unbelieving mankind including Israel and after the GWT in the lake of fire.   The body of Christ suffering at the hands of unbelievers is not the Great tribulation of JacOB's trouble.  So therefore the tribulation Paul speaks of is not the same as the Great Tribulation/JacOB's Trouble/the day of the Lord/the Lord's day/the day of Great darkness that is the wrath of GOD against the unbelievers bot Jew and Gentile, nor is it what takes place after the GWT the wrath of God for all eternity for those sent to the lake of fire.

 

Jesus Christ took the wrath of God upon himself on the cross so the Body of Christ will not go through the wrath of God at any time period or eternity.  for it is finished.

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Without going into all your post I can say it all with this one example.

It will happen in the future as listed in the book of Revelation.

having said that you would clearly benefit from studying the NT writings of Paul in deeper study and application. Than misunderstanding the Book of Revelation. I think I mentioned over in How Do You Rightly Divide the Word of Truth thread there are ways of dividing it for study but it is not a book for a novice or someone who does not clearly understand how to rightly divide it will almost always lead to errors in understanding and application.

The term tribulation/tribulations used by Paul is not to be confused with the Great Tribulation known as JacOB's trouble. For that which Paul speaks is personal or interpersonal tribulation which that spoken by Christ in the gospel books and Revelation is General tribulation of Israel and the world as a whole.

While Second Thess has more that is connected to the book of Revelation, you would do wise to study out the Term Elect and to whom it applies and at which time it applies differently to Israel and the Body of Christ and not confuse the two together.

A man who just died recently down in Tennessee I can't think of his name off hand but he has a big following but all based on the misunderstanding of the Book of Revelation. I was banned because I took his teaching on their site and simply showed by the scriptures it was in error and that he had failure to rightly divide and his ability to wrongly join scriptures to make false teachings, and his example if a man taught that which was not of the word of God then his teaching was to be rejected. In short I showed by his own teaching his teaching was to be rejected and the people were to follow God's word rather than him, just as he taught.

I am not sure but it seems from your post you have listened to his radio program or attended some of his Radio studies.

I have read the KJV, listened to the AV, and studied the English Bible.

But, thanks for asking.

Now, try addressing the actual points in the post, please, instead of trying to categorize me, so you can dismiss me.

FTR, I have no idea who the man in TN is, nor have I listened to, watched, streamed, or read any thing by any one who wasn't a personal friend, in years.

I, like you, am interested in propogating the Truth.

Anishinaabe

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I think/hope we are approaching understanding, if not agreement :)

 

I have read and re read all the Major Prophets and though God did historically punish and scatter Israel he has still not brought them back in Peace to dwell in unfenced/unwalled cities, in perfect peace forever as it states in almost everyone of those books. 

Agreed - the repeated unfaithfulness of Israel that we read about is prophesied to end:

e.g.

Jer. 23:Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; but, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

 

So it is clear, if it was not fulfilled in the past then it must be in the future. Israel was brought back into the land and not once in 2450 years has there been a peaceful free Israel with a descendant of David on the throne. 

Like the Emmaus couple, we expect Jesus, now risen, ascended & glorified, to be the one to implement the old covenant promises by  the new covenant in his blood. The generation that rejected their Messiah was swept away, leaving many thousands of Jewish believers. Certainly enough to be the basis for a renewed nation in the promised land, if that were God's intention. They were scattered by persecution by unbelieving Jews, but God could have brought them back. The land & nation promises were fulfilled, as testified by Joshua & Solomon. Is it possible that the prophecies of peace in the promised land were ultimately to be fulfilled in a heavenly land, as Abraham was given to expect? (Heb. 11) We all expect the NH&NE to be the pefect realisation of ALL God's promises & purposes.   

 

And would be no reason for God to give revelation to John about past events that have already taken place, so it will be future.

That's good reason for an pre-70 date for Revelation. John's visions in Revelation were of events to take place shortly .... for the time is at hand.

     

I never said we, the body of Christ, don't suffer at the hands of unbelievers, I was talking about the WRATH of God which is punishment, which is both during the time of JacOB's trouble(the great tribulation) against unbelieving mankind including Israel and after the GWT in the lake of fire.   The body of Christ suffering at the hands of unbelievers is not the Great tribulation of JacOB's trouble.  So therefore the tribulation Paul speaks of is not the same as the Great Tribulation/JacOB's Trouble/the day of the Lord/the Lord's day/the day of Great darkness that is the wrath of GOD against the unbelievers bot Jew and Gentile, nor is it what takes place after the GWT the wrath of God for all eternity for those sent to the lake of fire.

We basically agree regarding tribulation of believers & wrath against unbelievers, aka great tribulation, though we disagree about the timing & events.

 

Jesus Christ took the wrath of God upon himself on the cross so the Body of Christ will not go through the wrath of God at any time period or eternity.  for it is finished.

Agreed.

 

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Coventant, the book of Revelation is believed not to be written until after 70AD.  I believe that is true and I believed it was written after 90AD.  And I believe only the gospel of John and the book of Revelation were written after 90AD.

 

His three letters on the other hand could very well have been written earlier.

 

And I believe the AV says it is the NEW TESTAMENT in HIS BLOOD not NEW COVENANT.  To make it covenant is to change the English word and indicates you do not believe that the AV word of God is inerrant and preserved.

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Coventant, the book of Revelation is believed not to be written until after 70AD.  I believe that is true and I believed it was written after 90AD.  And I believe only the gospel of John and the book of Revelation were written after 90AD.

 

His three letters on the other hand could very well have been written earlier.

 

And I believe the AV says it is the NEW TESTAMENT in HIS BLOOD not NEW COVENANT.  To make it covenant is to change the English word and indicates you do not believe that the AV word of God is inerrant and preserved.

The New Testament and New Covenant are not the same thing. The words don't even mean the same thing. This is a case where the English is superior to the Greek because the Greek doesn't make a distinction between the two words while the English does. Of course, all the new version muck up the word in Hebrews so they can force the New Covenant strictly upon the church while leaving the future nation of Israel whom God makes his new covenant with out of the picture. The Calvinists love it!

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Coventant, the book of Revelation is believed not to be written until after 70AD.  I believe that is true and I believed it was written after 90AD.  And I believe only the gospel of John and the book of Revelation were written after 90AD.

 

His three letters on the other hand could very well have been written earlier.

 

And I believe the AV says it is the NEW TESTAMENT in HIS BLOOD not NEW COVENANT.  To make it covenant is to change the English word and indicates you do not believe that the AV word of God is inerrant and preserved.

 

 

The New Testament and New Covenant are not the same thing. The words don't even mean the same thing. This is a case where the English is superior to the Greek because the Greek doesn't make a distinction between the two words while the English does. Of course, all the new version muck up the word in Hebrews so they can force the New Covenant strictly upon the church while leaving the future nation of Israel whom God makes his new covenant with out of the picture. The Calvinists love it!

 

Actually they are largely synonymous in both languages. You have to limit the English definition to support your point above. I'll use only the English Webster's 1828 for "testament" to demonstrate since you don't like Greek:

 

"the name of each general division of the canonical books of the sacred Scriptures; as the Old Testament; the New Testament. The name is equivalent to covenant, and in our use of it, we apply it to the books which contain the old and new dispensations; that of Moses, and that of Jesus Christ."

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Actually they are largely synonymous in both languages. You have to limit the English definition to support your point above. I'll use only the English Webster's 1828 for "testament" to demonstrate since you don't like Greek:

 

"the name of each general division of the canonical books of the sacred Scriptures; as the Old Testament; the New Testament. The name is equivalent to covenant, and in our use of it, we apply it to the books which contain the old and new dispensations; that of Moses, and that of Jesus Christ."

The KJV limits the definition. A testament requires the death of the testator (Hebrews 9) while a covenant does not.

 

The new covenant is dependent upon the new testament but they are NOT the same thing.

 

You sure can get things muddled up messing with the Greek. 

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      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
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    • Bro. West

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