Knowledge

[Bro K]

I believe that most of us would agree that Knowledge is important. But at what point does the use/need of knowledge become a stumbling block. I copied the following from another forum:

 

"Doesn't 1 John 5:1 grammatically say that regeneration logically precedes faith?

1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

In the Greek if that helps you:
1Jn 5:1 Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι ᾿Ιησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς, ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται, καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ καὶ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ.

First, the "everyone who believes" is the same as John 3:16's. The participle is present tense saying it is a continuous action, not that it happens in the present.

Second, "has been born of/by God" is really important. It is present passive indicative meaning that the action happened before the participle "believing" and continues to have an ongoing result. The passive is answered w/ the prepositional phrase "by God". This then would logically place the sequence of causality to say being born by God was the cause of the faith. Or to say it in reverse (like this verse), your faith is the result of your already being birthed by God. You believe because you have been born by God.

If that is the case, the regeneration is certainly a component or cause to faith.

If you disagree, can you exegetically explain this verse (and not resort to another verse)?"

 

I always knew that my knowledge was limited; but from the above, I must not know what knowledge is.

Have we come to the point where only the few dictate to the majority; based on how much learning one has??

[TheSword]

Perhaps I can help a little. First, of the two parts of a tense in Greek grammar, time is secondary, particularly in the present tense, and aspect is the primary concern. It is really hard, and normally ill-advised, to pull out any time sequence when all of the verbs are in the present, perfect, or aorist tense. This is particularly true when those are being used as participles. All instances of "believes/believeth" and "born" are participles, meaning they modify the noun, which is "whosever" (πᾶς - literally each, every, all) which is in the nominative case in every instance. Therefore, the subject of the sentence is "whosoever believeth". Further, it is only half of the participial phrase. The whole subject would be "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ."

 

The only non-participle verbs are "is born" (γεγέννηται, present passive indicative) and "loveth" (ἀγαπᾷ, present active indicative). Those are really the only verbs that time can be taken from in this sentence and they are both in the present indicative. The only difference between the passive and active is who is doing the action and the action is happening to. In this case, the subject receives the action of being born and does the action of loving. The only thing you could pull out would be a cause-and-effect relationship between "is born" and "loveth." Therefore, the acts of faith and belief are not parts of this sentence that timing can be gleaned from.

 

A crude diagram would look something like this:

Subject 1:

Whosoever (subjective noun) 

     believeth that Jesus is the Christ (participial phrase acting as an adjective that modifies "whosoever")

 

Predicate 1:

is born (verb)

     of God (prepositional phrase acting as an adverb modifying "is born"

 

and (conjuction joining two complete sentences forming a complex sentence)

 

Subject 2:

every one (subjective noun)

     that loveth him (participial phrase acting as an adjective that modifies "every one")

          that begat (participial phrase acting as an adjective that modifies "him" of the previous participial phrase)

 

Predicate 2:

loveth (verb) 

     him (direct object)

          also (conjuction introducing participial phrase)

          that is begotten of him. (participial phrase acting as an adjective that modifies "him")

 

Therefore, the verse basically says that All who believe in Christ are born of God and all who love God love the ones who are also born of God. Plainly stated, real Christians love other real Christians. There are really no statements of the timing of faith and/or regeneration in this verse.

 

Does that help?

[Bro K]

I should have stated that I highlighted those parts in red. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

The main point was: Have we come to the point where only the few dictate to the majority; based on how much learning one has??

 

When we go to church; maybe we should take with us a Concordance, Bible Dictionary, Greek/Hebrew-English translating book, Lexicon-Synonyus and Thesaurus. And if we happen to know the sermon text we could carry a Commentary with us.

 

Didn't know that our forefathers who traveled through these mountains and hollers spreading the Gospel were so ignorant.

[DaveW]

Only if people insist on

"If you disagree, can you exegetically explain this verse (and not resort to another verse)?"

Otherwise you can, by cross referencing, discover whether or not the simple understanding is correct, or further study is required.

[Donillo]

I suppose all that is good to know, diagramming sentences and all. Anyone can understand proverbs 3:5&6..lean not unto thine own understanding. When a man trusts his own capabilities faith dims. He over analyses scripture into something of his own creation

[ASongOfDegrees]

 

If you disagree, can you exegetically explain this verse (and not resort to another verse)?"

 

 

How can you "exegetically" explain a verse without resorting to another? The bible doesn't work that way.

 

John is not trying to explain the steps of salvation (i.e first faith than regeneration or first regeneration than faith) but is simply explaining how you can know someone is born again. If they believe Jesus Christ is born of God is a way you know a man is saved. John was dealing with gnostics who didn't believe Jesus was physically born of God. This heresy was called "docetism". So John is basically telling his audience that anyone who denied that Jesus actually came in the flesh, as opposed to only spirit form, was not a saved man. 

[TheSword]

I should have stated that I highlighted those parts in red. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

The main point was: Have we come to the point where only the few dictate to the majority; based on how much learning one has??

 

When we go to church; maybe we should take with us a Concordance, Bible Dictionary, Greek/Hebrew-English translating book, Lexicon-Synonyus and Thesaurus. And if we happen to know the sermon text we could carry a Commentary with us.

 

Didn't know that our forefathers who traveled through these mountains and hollers spreading the Gospel were so ignorant.

 

My apologies; I definitely misunderstood your question, or at least identified the wrong one. I don't think having knowledge is the problem. Rather it's what people try to do with it or with the lack of it. Having a preacher stand up and give an academic lecture and tell people only he understands it because he's learned and credentialed is just as bad as a preacher standing up and giving a bad analysis or application and ignoring anyone who disagrees based on learned facts. If there were none who earnestly studied there would be none to keep bad interpretation in check (even from others who study). One problem is that, on average, people have gotten lazy when it comes to reading and studying the Word of God and they blindly trust that the one teaching them, such as a pastor, has studied for them and has the right interpretation for them. People, at least in America, have largely been content to simply let the preacher tell them what they believe and don't investigate it any further. That speaks as much to your point as the problem of trying to require everyone to become an academic theologian.

 

Many Christians have become lazy to the point that they care more about someone's credentialed or academic authority than they do sound and reasonable interpretation. That's bad. Other Christians seek credentials and academic authority so they can dictate to the majority as you stated. That's bad too. Truly, ALL Christians should be studying and investigating the truths of Scripture (1 Pet 3:15) and not blindly leave it up to others. The best way to avoid an academic (or an unlearned) preacher or layman dictating doctrine to you is to commit to studying for yourself.

 

 

I suppose all that is good to know, diagramming sentences and all. Anyone can understand proverbs 3:5&6..lean not unto thine own understanding. When a man trusts his own capabilities faith dims. He over analyses scripture into something of his own creation

 

The other side to that is not knowing any of it and making equally bad interpretations/applications out of ignorance. There's a balance to be struck.

[John81]

In my encounters with "head knowledge Christians" they are often rather annoying and thinking highly of their own intellect. They tend to reject or dispute much of Scripture simply because either they can't come up with a rational (in their minds) explanation or they have not read of any by a "learned scholar".

 

Some "head knowledge Christians" also like to think they are above the rest of Christianity.

 

The question to ask, how many of these are biblically saved? Are they willing to biblically examine their salvation, per Scripture, and are they willing to accept what the Bible in that regard?

 

At the other end of the spectrum are those who are too lazy to read and study for themselves so they heap to themselves those they deem "wise" and follow their teachings rather blindly.

[2bLikeJesus]

In my encounters with "head knowledge Christians" they are often rather annoying and thinking highly of their own intellect. They tend to reject or dispute much of Scripture simply because either they can't come up with a rational (in their minds) explanation or they have not read of any by a "learned scholar".

 

Some "head knowledge Christians" also like to think they are above the rest of Christianity.

 

The question to ask, how many of these are biblically saved? Are they willing to biblically examine their salvation, per Scripture, and are they willing to accept what the Bible in that regard?

 

At the other end of the spectrum are those who are too lazy to read and study for themselves so they heap to themselves those they deem "wise" and follow their teachings rather blindly.

 

1 Corinthians 8:1 (KJV)
¹  b. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 

[TheSword]

Let me also say knowledge and a personal faith are not mutually exclusive. Even though I study at an academic level, my faith is very personal. In fact, I only began academic study BECAUSE my faith was so personal I just be came so incredibly hungry to learn all I could about God and His Word that I was basically doing this type of study anyway. Not that anyone in this thread has made such a statement, but the whole argument against accepting (with discernment of course) the work and investigation of academic study and denouncing things such as language and historical study is absolute nonsense and error in my opinion. It seems to be more a lack of desire to devote time to learning on the part of the objector than it seems to be a problem of studied people missing the mark on personal spirituality.

 

I truly have a hard time understanding the mindset of people who profess a desire to grow closer to Christ but put forth no effort to studying His Word and get further agitated when people who do put forth the effort to study attempt to explain their understanding to them. Honestly, I also think dismissing the wise counsel of someone who has deeply investigated an issue is absolutely foolish (Pro 1:5, 7). Maybe you'd come to a different conclusion, but at least you could come to a better understanding of the issues and strengthen why hold a certain position.

[ASongOfDegrees]

Knowledge is good. The more the better. You just have to have humility and love to go along with it.

 

One consequence of having knowledge, though is the sadness that comes along with it. As they say "ignorance is bliss". The more knowledge you gain the more difficult it can be to remain joyful. Especially when you notice most Christians don't really care to know anything beyond John 3:16 and Matthew 7:1.  This is why keeping your eyes heavenward at all times is mandatory or you will get discouraged.

[TheSword]

Knowledge is good. The more the better. You just have to have humility and love to go along with it.

 

One consequence of having knowledge, though is the sadness that comes along with it. As they say "ignorance is bliss". The more knowledge you gain the more difficult it can be to remain joyful. Especially when you notice most Christians don't really care to know anything beyond John 3:16 and Matthew 7:1.  This is why keeping your eyes heavenward at all times is mandatory or you will get discouraged.

 

100% agree with you there. It can also come with great joy in both knowing God and passing the knowledge on to others. One of my greatest joys is discipling others and seeing them grow in faith and knowledge. That goes with keeping your eyes heavenward as you stated.

[ThePilgrim]

Knowledge is good. The more the better. You just have to have humility and love to go along with it.

 

One consequence of having knowledge, though is the sadness that comes along with it. As they say "ignorance is bliss". The more knowledge you gain the more difficult it can be to remain joyful. Especially when you notice most Christians don't really care to know anything beyond John 3:16 and Matthew 7:1.  This is why keeping your eyes heavenward at all times is mandatory or you will get discouraged.

Boy, do I agree with this.  Study a lot and learn a lot (especially about the world and how it works) and become miserable.  That happened to me, until, I learned to get closer to Jesus and understand that the world is not all there is.  The world still makes me unhappy but I can sit down with my wife and read the bible and get away from it daily. 

 

Thank God there is some place to go that is safe from the troubles and horrors of the world.

 

God bless,

Larry

[AVBibleBeliever]

I was intrigued by the Title "Knowledge"

 

I have been reading this thread since the start but not commenting.

 

I decided to do an in-depth Bible study on the word knowledge as a result it branched out into five make that 7 other words I will have to study as well known, knoweth, knowing, knew, knowest, knewest and know.

 

This is why I have not been commenting online as I have close to six hundred verse usages to read and study out.

 

I will only be using the AV Bible, Webster's 1828 Dictionary, and some Bible dictionaries (more for historical reference than meanings).  It is not easy so I am taking it slowly. I have never studied in this manner but I believe that if the AV Bible is God's preserved word as I believe it is then it should prove to be an interesting study and by the looks of it it may take me a year to get through it and in the end I will know I don't know everything there is to know about knowledge.

 

Brother Larry pretty much sums up that worldly knowledge will pretty much make them who seek it miserable. But God's word will always bring us to a deeper knowledge of our God and bring peace to our lives.

 

It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that is the first usage of the word in our Bibles so right from the start knowledge is not something to be taken lightly or disregarded.  as we all know the word of God says, knowledge puffeth up 1Cor 8:1.

[ASongOfDegrees]

I was intrigued by the Title "Knowledge"

 

I have been reading this thread since the start but not commenting.

 

I decided to do an in-depth Bible study on the word knowledge as a result it branched out into five other words I will have to study as well known, knoweth, knowing, knew and know.

 

This is why I have not been commenting online as I have close to six hundred verse usages to read and study out.

 

I will only be using the AV Bible, Webster's 1828 Dictionary, and some Bible dictionaries (more for historical reference than meanings).  It is not easy so I am taking it slowly. I have never studied in this manner but I believe that if the AV Bible is God's preserved word as I believe it is then it should prove to be an interesting study and by the looks of it it may take me a year to get through it and in the end I will know I don't know everything there is to know about knowledge.

 

Brother Larry pretty much sums up that worldly knowledge will pretty much make them who seek it miserable. But God's word will always bring us to a deeper knowledge of our God and bring peace to our lives.

 

It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that is the first usage of the word in our Bibles so right from the start knowledge is not something to be taken lightly or disregarded.  as we all know the word of God says, knowledge puffeth up 1Cor 8:1.

Brother, I think there is a sadness that comes along with God's knowledge too.

 

Revelation 10

 

[9] And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
[10] And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

 

One reason why Jesus was a "man of sorrow".