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Cloud Or Chappell


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Amen, John.  I found out all about these IFB "camps" when I was a member of Online Baptist, years ago.  That is when the Ruckmanites were on board.  These "camps" are ridiculous, and only divide IFB's.  It was a huge turn off to me.  I actually was so discouraged by it, that I talked with the evangelist that they me to the Lord about it.  He said, don't worry about what a few have to say.  Stick with the Bible and what it says, and you can't go wrong.

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One of the big problems with the "camps" is each camp seems quick to think ill of other "camps" and to attack them. (See the thread on Charity which addresses such sin)

 

At the same time, each "camp" seems willing to accept much within their own "camps" that they would speak against if it were coming from someone in another "camp".

 

One clear example of this is within the "Sword camp". The Sword of the Lord supposedly takes an anti-CCM stance and has denounced others for even doing something like using the song "In Christ Alone" accompanied by piano yet when confronted with the adapted use of CCM by Chappell (his church and college) the Sword has gone silent. Even after much pressure and the Sword publishing an article on music they totally ignored the questions regarding Chappell (who is part of the Sword camp) and the use of adapted CCM so their article came out seeming to say much and nothing at the same time.

 

That said, each "camp", including the Sword camp, can take whatever position they deem best on whatever issue, not just music. The point is, if they take a stand on an issue that stand should apply across the board. Hypocrisy is a big problem and yet we allow it to creep in for the sake of placating those within the same "camps" while still speaking against those in other "camps".

 

It's a mess.

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So now you are attacking Golden State Baptist College and Dr. Jack Trieber, West Coast Baptist College, and Hyles Anderson. Three of the best colleges in America. I graduated Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College, San Dimas, CA (since moved to Oklahoma City and named Heartland Baptist College) in 1982 when Dr. Jack Baskin was president, you have venom to spread against them and Dr. Baskin too? You are treading on very thin ice with God in such attacks.

Numbers 12:1 (KJV)
1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

Was Moses in the wrong for marrying an Ethiopian, when God clearly commanded Israel to marry ONLY within Israel? Absolutely, Moses was wrong, BUT who did God punish in His fierce wrath?

Numbers 12:8-12 (KJV)
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.

10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.

We never hear of a single rebuke from God over the obvious shortcoming by Moses in doing this wrong, it was the attack on God's prophet and trying to usurp his leadership position that angered God. So just keep attacking great men of God and the Bible Colleges that are turning out wonderful IFB Pastors by the hundreds.

Bro. Garry

Don't give me that tired old Moses and Aaron bit.

You need to quit worshipping men.

I quoted Scripture, initially, and you countered with your Final Authority: your pastor has even had Dr.Zachary to his house.

Dr.Zachary brought musical change to the 3 institutions that he worked at. 3 institutions that hired an effeminate man, 3 institutions that wouldn't hire a man with a beard, much less a smoker, have had their music go from traditional gospel, to SG and CCM dominated programs.

I was raised in FBC Hammond, and was an associate pastor, until I took a stand against the false doctrine of the now exposed molester, Schaap.
Would you like to try to tell that girl's Daddy about Moses and Aaron?

My wife was raised at NVBC, and is saddened by the changes there.

We were horrified when the song books showed up, that Dr Zachary edited, had SG songs for most of the First 100. Songs by perverts like Dotie Rambo, produced in Nashville.
Look up the names, and read a bio on those "Christians" who wrote those songs.

My family was directly affected by this wave, currently HQ'ed at WCBC.

If all these men you worship are so great, ....then explain the plague of teen/staff sex scandals under their oversight.
Explain Andy Condict, Max Hudson, Mike Schouff, Dave Hyles, Jack Schaap, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

It is time to attack, when the fox is in the hen house.

Anishinaabe

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I will admit to knowing little about Hyles Anderson other than exposure to two of it's graduates from the 1970's and early 80's, Dr. William P. Grady who was my pastor in Idaho before he became a well known author on the KJV bible and church history, and Gerald McElroy.  Both were well grounded IFB Pastors in every sense of the word.  However in 35 years of attending IFB churches I have not known of a single student we have sent there.  Being on the west coast most students have gone to either Golden State Baptist College or West Coast Baptist College and I am much more familiar with those two fine schools and their strengths and shortcomings.  If there are better colleges with no issues at all than those two colleges, I have never been made aware of them.  I have issues with both colleges in certain areas, but their core fundamental beliefs and instruction is to date is still solid.  Where would any of you send your children?  I have seen two students go to other "Christian" colleges that were going after NON-ministry majors, in those cases Law Enforcement degree, and Architecture but there is no way we would have blessed them going to those colleges for ministry instruction.  Note:  The Architecture with Construction minor graduate has a fabulous ministry designing and building churches all over the world for IFB missionaries for nothing more than material costs and his room and board.  He is building 2 churches right now in India for Missionary Sam Thomas for less than $10,000 each.  Sadly the Law Enforcement graduate became a Prison official in Denver and attends a church I would never attend in keeping with the poor spiritual instruction he received at Pensacola.

 

Bro. Garry

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I attended Hyles-Anderson (HAC) for a few years when Bro. Hyles was alive. Many people from there had no more problem confronting sin than most other IFB from other camps (I have been around enough to say that). According to an older IFB preacher (60-80 years old) that knows Keith Gomez and others ... Wilkerson is an ok choice and FBC Hammond and HAC should be fine. West Coast should be ok too. Here is one problem with listening to people talk negative: I heard about some issues with Cloud but can't remember what was said ... now I think there's some issue he has went wrong on but I couldn't tell you what it is. I am surprised that Golden State seems to have become less talked about and I haven't been hearing much about Jack Trieber (I don't know what happened). West Coast seems to be at the top of the "core" IFB "list" right now (based on what I've seen in several IFB churches). Take what I say with a grain of salt as I have not traveled much in the last few years.

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.  You will notice that mention of certain colleges and pastors get shot down by the mods on this site. .


Not only does this sound snarky, it isn't true. There gave been many threads discussing colleges/pastors that have not been shot down at all...some threads have been closed because emotions got inflamed, but not shot down.

It is a truth that there are colleges that have big problems and pastors who also have big problems. And more than the mods have discussed their experiences. Just because someone doesn't agree with a college or pastor doesn't mean they are "shooting them down."

~~~~~~~

I think we err when we call any man a great man of God. No, no, no...a man used greatly of God, maybe. Or a man of a great God. But calling men great puts them on a plane no man - or woman - deserves.

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I will admit to knowing little about Hyles Anderson other than exposure to two of it's graduates from the 1970's and early 80's, Dr. William P. Grady who was my pastor in Idaho before he became a well known author on the KJV bible and church history, and Gerald McElroy. Both were well grounded IFB Pastors in every sense of the word. However in 35 years of attending IFB churches I have not known of a single student we have sent there. Being on the west coast most students have gone to either Golden State Baptist College or West Coast Baptist College and I am much more familiar with those two fine schools and their strengths and shortcomings. If there are better colleges with no issues at all than those two colleges, I have never been made aware of them. I have issues with both colleges in certain areas, but their core fundamental beliefs and instruction is to date is still solid. Where would any of you send your children? I have seen two students go to other "Christian" colleges that were going after NON-ministry majors, in those cases Law Enforcement degree, and Architecture but there is no way we would have blessed them going to those colleges for ministry instruction. Note: The Architecture with Construction minor graduate has a fabulous ministry designing and building churches all over the world for IFB missionaries for nothing more than material costs and his room and board. He is building 2 churches right now in India for Missionary Sam Thomas for less than $10,000 each. Sadly the Law Enforcement graduate became a Prison official in Denver and attends a church I would never attend in keeping with the poor spiritual instruction he received at Pensacola.

Bro. Garry

Hey, I went to KCBC, in Post Falls, when I traveled with Jack Patterson. He told us William P.Grady had pastored there, this was in 92, and he had been teaching at HAC for several years by then.
The church appeared strong, then, and I praised God for that testimony, because I read Final Authority the next spring, and it carried more weight.
Praise God for those who have been a blessing.

Anishinaabe

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Hey, I went to KCBC, in Post Falls, when I traveled with Jack Patterson. He told us William P.Grady had pastored there, this was in 92, and he had been teaching at HAC for several years by then.
The church appeared strong, then, and I praised God for that testimony, because I read Final Authority the next spring, and it carried more weight.
Praise God for those who have been a blessing.

Anishinaabe

 

That's exactly where I was a member!  Dr. Grady started that church from scratch in 1984, though not in the same location and building it is in now.  I am very glad to hear they are doing well.  I go up that way a couple of times a year because most of my family is still in the Spokane, Post Falls, and Coeur d'Alene area, but I typically visit Pastor Greg Boyles church in Spokane when I am there.  I have known Pastor Boyle since we met at Maranatha Baptist Church in Okinawa Japan when we were both Marines back in 1977.  

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That's exactly where I was a member! Dr. Grady started that church from scratch in 1984, though not in the same location and building it is in now. I am very glad to hear they are doing well. I go up that way a couple of times a year because most of my family is still in the Spokane, Post Falls, and Coeur d'Alene area, but I typically visit Pastor Greg Boyles church in Spokane when I am there. I have known Pastor Boyle since we met at Maranatha Baptist Church in Okinawa Japan when we were both Marines back in 1977.
Semper Fi. I've been to the church in Spokane, as well. Godfather's pizza! Precious memories, thanks for the reminder. Anishinaabe Edited by prophet1
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I keep seeing topics by Paul Chappell and then here is one by David Cloud which exposes some of Chappell's dangerous associations with CCM, Calvinists, RIck Warren, 'contemplative mysticism' etc.. Who does the owner of this forum agree with; Chappell or Cloud?

 

http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/paul_chappells_pragmatism_and_dangerous.html#unique-entry-id-1247

 

I'll go with Dr. James Ach. 

Edited by ASongOfDegrees
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 Hyles Anderson is not a well liked college on Online Baptist, Bro. Garry.  I happened to mention that with pastors, "I eat the water mellon and spit out the seeds."  One of the mods said that "eventually someone will choke on those seeds."  This was in reference to Hyles Anderson.  You will notice that mention of certain colleges and pastors get shot down by the mods on this site.  I merely point out the good in IFB preachers b/c I wasn't raised IFB.  I came out of the RCC, and got saved later in life.  I am extremely thankful for the IFB and take the good with the bad in what preachers say.  Christians, brought up in the IFB faith, or Christianity in general, tend to look at the bad more than the good.  It is very disheartening to hear and see this.

Despite the denial you are correct. I know of one who used to moderate on this site who would shot down every pastor who wasn't him.

 

My policy is that you can get something good from just about every man of God. Even bible correctors. Just toss out the bad and use the good. This will help you avoid joining any "camps". 

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So now you are attacking Golden State Baptist College and Dr. Jack Trieber, West Coast Baptist College, and Hyles Anderson.  Three of the best colleges in America.  I graduated Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College, San Dimas, CA (since moved to Oklahoma City and named Heartland Baptist College) in 1982 when Dr. Jack Baskin was president, you have venom to spread against them and Dr. Baskin too?    You are treading on very thin ice with God in such attacks.

 

Numbers 12:1 (KJV)
1  And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. 

 

Was Moses in the wrong for marrying an Ethiopian, when God clearly commanded Israel to marry ONLY within Israel?  Absolutely, Moses was wrong, BUT who did God punish in His fierce wrath?

 

Numbers 12:8-12 (KJV

8  With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
9  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.

10  And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
11  And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.
12  Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb.  

 

We never hear of a single rebuke from God over the obvious shortcoming by Moses in doing this wrong, it was the attack on God's prophet and trying to usurp his leadership position that angered God.  So just keep attacking great men of God and the Bible Colleges that are turning out wonderful IFB Pastors by the hundreds.

 

Bro. Garry

I'm glad I really don't care about what goes on in different circles of the IFB movement. I guess that makes me a true independent. 

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I'm glad I really don't care about what goes on in different circles of the IFB movement. I guess that makes me a true independent. 

It is rather ironic that those who claim to love the "independent" aspect  of IFBs are among those who love their camps and like trying to bring others in while taking jabs at those in other camps.

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