How Old Is The Earth

[TheSword]

As I wondered (thought deeply) on this during one of my morning devotions I came across this. 

Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.   When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

 

As I meditated (thought deeply) on this verse and as I see the scriptures I saw that the Lord possessed someone calling them self "me" in the beginning of his way.  You will notice that this verse is a divine cross reference to Gen 1:1 with the word "beginning".  This person (I believe is God the son) was set up from the beginning (second cross reference  to Gen1:1) and from the wording this took place before the earth was created, before there was a depth (heaven deep space) he was brought forth when there was yet no fountains abounding with water.

 

I want to offer a word of caution on this statement here because it raises a deep Christological implication. Perhaps it was in unintentional poor choice of wording, but this statement in context of your reasoning says that Jesus is a created being as opposed to eternally pre-existent with/as God. It appears what you're trying to argue here is that Jesus was brought forth (i.e. created) before the heavens and the earth were created. Is this what you intended to say? If so we should probably start another thread on the much more important topic of who Jesus is.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I want to offer a word of caution on this statement here because it raises a deep Christological implication. Perhaps it was in unintentional poor choice of wording, but this statement in context of your reasoning says that Jesus is a created being as opposed to eternally pre-existent with/as God. It appears what you're trying to argue here is that Jesus was brought forth (i.e. created) before the heavens and the earth were created. Is this what you intended to say? If so we should probably start another thread on the much more important topic of who Jesus is.

No it is God the Son or if you like the Word, who has existed from the beginning with God the father.  And the purpose of this earth is to glorify God the Son and it will be fulfilled.  and it is God's word that says "I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water"

 

John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

 Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Edited February 19, 2014 by AVBibleBeliever

[TheSword]

I think I may have already covered this in the OP but if God has preserved his word to us chronologically then this exulting of the person took place before the earth was created, and the earth was created before there was a heaven (a depth) and the heaven before there were fountains with water. I think evidence is against everything being rigidly chronological. Even in many of the individual books the subject can jump back and forth in time in a way that boggles most western readers.

 

One key to see here is this.  Water had a place where it was contained and it was in fountains.  When we get to Gen1:2 water is everywhere around the earth and on the earth and no longer in the fountains that originally held them according to verse 2.  So what we sea is a flood took place between verse one and verse two.

 

Why were the waters outside their ordained place of the fountains?

 

Why was there a flood on the earth and around the earth in verse two?

Gen 1:1-2 occurs before any fountains were formed. If you read through verse 10 you'll notice that no land yet existed in verse 2, but rather the initial created state was a large mass of water. I don't think this could rightly be called a flood which is dry land being inundated by water that is not normally there. In order to assert a flood between v. 1 and v. 2 you have to import a lot of assumptions because there iss nothing in the grammatical structure to support anything but a direct movement from "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" to "And the earth was without form and void;" Additionally, the grammar and syntax indicate that v. 2 begins a specific description of the general statement in v. 1.

 

One thing I could see from beginning to the end (no matter which version I read) that one thing was the Earth was a place for a throne city for Our Lord Jesus To reign from.  With this in mind one day I came to Isa 14:12-14 and as I read it something struck me.  If Lucifer was an anointed cherub he had a seat that was with God the Father, (JHVH) and I thought "how could he try and lift up that seat which was in the presence of God and lead a bunch of angels astray if the throne he was exalting was the was in God's presence?  He couldn't.

 

So something came to mind (just remember not everything that happened in heaven or outside the firmament is recorded in scriptures) and that idea was that God the Father commissioned Lucifer to take some angels and go to the earth he had created and placed in the depth of heaven and build a throne city.  God possibly did not tell him who it was for and with his pride built up this throne city and throne that he was overcome with pride of his creation that he then with the angels he had said, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

As a Contractor will point out a house he built and say that is one of my houses, Lucifer identified this throne as his own.  But it was not for him it was part of the honoring for God the Son.  Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.  Lucifers iniquity is what brought darkenss into God's heaven, and when that iniquity was found in him God's judgement went forth and destroyed the throne and it's city with the release of the waters from the fountains and flooded the area of the earth so that the earth was standing in and out of the waters..  After that judgement was complete we find the Spirit moving on the face of the waters in Gen 1:2. I think you're reading a bit too much into all this and making some additional narrative based on conjecture. You're also anachronistically trying to cram all  references to Satan between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, but I see no indication that they should be. Neither Isa 14 nor Eze 28 specify when exactly he was created nor when he fell nor what specifically he was created for. It requires an assumption to put it anywhere in the creation narrative.

 

I think an additional point of clarification to make here is on hermeneutical principle (i.e. how we interpret scripture). I put forth the following: a text cannot mean what it never meant and a text cannot meant what it could not have meant to the original audience. To the ancient Jews and throughout most of history, Gen 1 was always understood to be a historical account of the 6-day creation with no gaps in time. Since the rest of Scripture does not specify anything else taking place at a particular point in this narrative, it is invalid to definitely put any other event or narrative during the Creation week.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I think an additional point of clarification to make here is on hermeneutical principle (i.e. how we interpret scripture). I put forth the following: a text cannot mean what it never meant and a text cannot meant what it could not have meant to the original audience. To the ancient Jews and throughout most of history, Gen 1 was always understood to be a historical account of the 6-day creation with no gaps in time. Since the rest of Scripture does not specify anything else taking place at a particular point in this narrative, it is invalid to definitely put any other event or narrative during the Creation week.

If have your right to disagree I wont argue over your right

[TheSword]

No it is God the Son or if you like the Word, who has existed from the beginning with God the father.  And the purpose of this earth is to glorify God the Son and it will be fulfilled.  and it is God's word that says "I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water"

 

John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

 Ps 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

 

See how all these verse connect with the divine cross-reference.

 

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. So that we don't get down a rabbit hole of confusion and so I don't misrepresent your position, let me ask a couple questions plainly and then we'll go from there on all of these cross-references:

 

1. Is Jesus God (i.e. the same entity, not person)?

2. Is Jesus eternally pre-existent or was he created by God the Father?

[The Glory Land]

The Earth is around 7 Thousand years old, or Millions of Millions of years ago. Which one sounds better to you?

[beameup]

hayah tohuw bohuw

hayah   to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

tohuw   formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

bohuw  emptiness, void, waste

[ThePilgrim]

Don't know

But whenever the first man, "paleontologist" title notwithstanding, dug up the first "dino" skeleton and put the thing together, suppose he DID just call it a dragon: Why are all the bones fossilized, why are there no organic bone skeletons of "dragons"? How come we can find the organic bones from the time of "beowulf" and "beowulf's horse", but none of the dragons he "slew"

I do apologize for having to use internet sources but being an old fossil my memory is not what it use to be.

 

Well first you have to take into consideration the way animals fossilize:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab3/fossils-rapid-burial

 

Then you have to consider the problem of how they determine the age of fossils . . . . radiometric dating.  And their are problems with carbon dating and other radiometric methods of dating fossils:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible

 

God bless,

Larry

[Ukulelemike]

hayah tohuw bohuw

hayah   to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

tohuw   formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

bohuw  emptiness, void, waste

And...?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

hayah tohuw bohuw

hayah   to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

tohuw   formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

bohuw  emptiness, void, waste

There are a couple other words that "hayah" can be translated into... "be", "exist", and "was".

The Earth existed... without form and void... which is why God continued creating another 5 days.

There is no gap between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2

Edited February 19, 2014 by Standing Firm In Christ

[paid4]

I'm glad you want to know how old the earth is. This subject has been on my heart for sometime now. First let me say I do believe that creation is coming up on it's 7,000th year. God rested on the 7th day. One day is as a thousand years etc.etc. But I would like to ask this question in response and hopefully add a little apologetics to your defense of this matter when an unbeliever asks how old the earth is.

 

What difference does it make? Now that sounds rude but really it defeats all other questions. For example if you believe in the Big Bang theory then you still believe in a "beginning of time". So if the world is 6,000 years old or 6 million years old why do we write 2014 on our checks (those paper things we used to write for money or services)? It's because something happened 2014 years ago that all of eternity is centered around. It doesn't matter how far back you go, if you call it B.C. and A.D., or if you use BCE and CE the fact is that something happened 2014 years ago that changed history. That thing was the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. And from the time of his birth until he returns we're all on the same page.

 

P.S. You can also discredit the Big Bang theory just by asking "where did that come from" because whatever "banged" had to have a beginning as well.

 

P.P.S. You can discredit evolution with the fact that there are still monkeys around and nowhere in the world has an apple tree ever produced a watermelon.

 

P.P.P.S.S. (whatever)  Gays are not born that way because you have to choose a mate. You're born white, black,etc.but you were not born with a mate. Also if it were a genetic thing it couldn't have carried on because gays cannot reproduce.

 

Sorry this turned into an apologetics sermon. Hope this helps you all in defense of the faith.

Edited February 19, 2014 by paid4

[TheSword]

I'm glad you want to know how old the earth is. This subject has been on my heart for sometime now. First let me say I do believe that creation is coming up on it's 7,000th year. God rested on the 7th day. One day is as a thousand years etc.etc. But I would like to ask this question in response and hopefully add a little apologetics to your defense of this matter when an unbeliever asks how old the earth is.

 

What difference does it make? Now that sounds rude but really it defeats all other questions. For example if you believe in the Big Bang theory then you still believe in a "beginning of time". So if the world is 6,000 years old or 6 million years old why do we write 2014 on our checks (those paper things we used to write for money or services)? It's because something happened 2014 years ago that all of eternity is centered around. It doesn't matter how far back you go, if you call it B.C. and A.D., or if you use BCE and CE the fact is that something happened 2014 years ago that changed history. That thing was the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. And from the time of his comming until he returns we're all on the same page.

 

P.S. You can also discredit the Big Bang theory just by asking "where did that come from" because whatever "banged" had to have a beginning as well.

 

P.P.S. You can discredit evolution with the fact that there are still monkeys around and nowhere in the world has an apple tree ever produced a watermelon.

 

P.P.P.S.S. (whatever)  Gays are not born that way because you have to choose a mate. You're born white, black,etc.but you were not born with a mate. Also if it were a genetic thing it couldn't have carried on because gays cannot reproduce.

 

Sorry this turned into an apologetics sermon. Hope this helps you all in defense of the faith.

 

I think we probably agree on most things recarding creation (based on what you said above and is a personal interest of mine as well), but I don't think these are great arguments that strengthen the position. Perhaps we can start another thread on creation apologetics and how to help each other present a better defense? =)

[AVBibleBeliever]

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. So that we don't get down a rabbit hole of confusion and so I don't misrepresent your position, let me ask a couple questions plainly and then we'll go from there on all of these cross-references:

 

1. Is Jesus God (i.e. the same entity, not person)?

2. Is Jesus eternally pre-existent or was he created by God the Father? /

Is Jesus God?    Yes same entity not person

 

Is Jesus Eternally pre-existent?  Yes as the Son of God, the Word

 

Was Jesus Created by God the Father?  No, he is one with God the Father

Edited February 19, 2014 by AVBibleBeliever

[AVBibleBeliever]

I am sorry if I can't keep up there are just to many posts for me to read them all know over 100 at present.

[AVBibleBeliever]

If you admit this theory has nothing to do with living a godly life, and God chose not to give us specific information about these things, and there is no scriptural backing for your viewpoint, then why even entertain such ideas at all?

 

We are told to avoid vain imaginations even as we are told to abide by what God has commanded us in Scripture. Considering we will never in this lifetime fully grasp, memorize and put into practice all that God has revealed to us in Scripture it seems we have more than enough to do simply striving to know the Word given and obeying His commands.

who says it is vain.  If you believe that they are then why even get involved in the thread?  As a matter of fact you shouldn't post anymore if that is the way your feel.  I am not making doctrine here nor am I teaching I merely shared my idea on how old the earth was.  It is possibly between 6000 and 7000 years old.