In Defense Of Alcohol, God's Blessing To Man

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If you ask anybody to go buy some wine would they come home with a bottle of juice?

in the first century A.D., chances are they might.

[swathdiver]

If you ask anybody to go buy some wine would they come home with a bottle of juice?

 

Not today, but in 1611 they would have recoiled in horror if I asked them to bring home some wine.  Like I told you before, context is key to understanding this subject.  If I asked for some "new wine" that would be quite alright.  

 

I'll say it again for you Jeffrey, only until about sixty years ago, wine and grape juice were known by the same word and differentiated by context.  Do you have any dictionaries like a Funk & Wagnalls from the 1940s for example?

 

 

 

 

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." - Romans 16:17

[TheSword]

It only becomes an enemy if it's abused as with anything in life.  Yes.  Please read the context.  The Proverbs quotes above is clearly talking about a person in a drunken state.

 

This is incorrect, please read my above post (#109). The proverb is addressed to the son who is being told to "look not". You have to do some linguistic acrobatics with the grammar to say the command to "look not" is directed only at people who are drinking in excess.

 

 

If wine is grape juice then why not just call it "grape juice."  Has the meaning of "wine" and "juice" changed over time?  

 

Yes, it has; it is the nature of language for words to change meaning over time. It is only within the last century or so what wine has been taken to mean only the alcoholic variety.  It has historicaly carried both meanings in English, Greek, and Hebrew.

[GraceSaved]

This is incorrect, please read my above post (#109). The proverb is addressed to the son who is being told to "look not". You have to do some linguistic acrobatics with the grammar to say the command to "look not" is directed only at people who are drinking in excess.  Yes.  The average person who reads the Bible must apply linguistic acrobatics. 

 

 

 

Yes, it has; it is the nature of language for words to change meaning over time. It is only within the last century or so what wine has been taken to mean only the alcoholic variety.  It has historicaly carried both meanings in English, Greek, and Hebrew.  I used this same logic of words changing meaning over time in a KJVO thread, but then it didn't fly.

[GraceSaved]

Not today, but in 1611 they would have recoiled in horror if I asked them to bring home some wine.  Like I told you before, context is key to understanding this subject.  If I asked for some "new wine" that would be quite alright.  

 

I'll say it again for you Jeffrey, only until about sixty years ago, wine and grape juice were known by the same word and differentiated by context.  Do you have any dictionaries like a Funk & Wagnalls from the 1940s for example?

 

 

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." - Romans 16:17

Please read the whole chapter of Romans which is referring to divisions caused by spreading a new doctrine of Christ.

[LindaR]

Way of Life Encyclopedia

WINE

The following study is by Bruce Lackey:

 

1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word "wine" can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: Deuteronomy 11:14;  2 Chronicles 31:5; Nehemiah 13:15; Proverbs 3:10; Isaiah 16:10; 65:8; 1Timothy 5:23.

 

2. The context will always show when "wine" refers to alcoholic beverages. In such cases, God discusses the bad effects of it and warns against it. An example would be Genesis 9, Noah's experience after the Flood. Verse 21 (Genesis 9:21), "and he drank of the wine, and was drunken," clearly refers to alcoholic beverage.

 

Proverbs 20:1 speaks of the same thing, warning that "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Alcoholic wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people are advocating today, by saying that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone admits that drinking too much is bad; even the liquor companies tell us not to drive and drink, but they insist that a small amount is all right. However, that is the very thing that is deceptive. Who knows how little to drink? Experts tell us that each person is different. It takes an ounce to affect one, while more is necessary for another. The same person will react to alcohol differently, depending on the amount of food he has had, among other things. So, the idea that "a little bit won't hurt" is deceptive, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!

 

Proverbs 23:30-31 refers to alcoholic wine, because it tells us in the previous verse that those who drink it have woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause, and redness of eyes. What a graphic description of those who "tarry long" at alcoholism. Verses 32-35 continue the same description; context always makes it clear when alcohol is meant. If "wine" may mean fresh grape juice or alcohol, how can we know which is intended? The context determines the meaning. We can tell when "wine" means fresh grape juice and when it means alcoholic beverage by reading the context, just as we have done in the previous paragraphs.

 

3. Scripture warns against the drinking of alcoholic wine. The Bible is consistent on this, both in the Old and New Testaments.

 

The two previously quoted passages, Proverbs 20:1 and Proverbs 23:29-35, are good examples of scriptural warnings against consuming alcohol. Proverbs 23:32 says "at the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." Verse 33 shows that it will cause one to look at strange women (that is, not one's wife) and to say perverse things, or things which he would not say if he were sober. Verse 34 predicts that it will cause death, such as drowning, or loneliness, such as lying upon the top of a mast. Verse 35 warns against numbness ("they have beaten me and I felt it not") and "addiction ("when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again").

 

Proverbs 31:4-5 teaches, "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." The danger is obvious. By the way, Proverbs 31:6-7 give us the only legitimate use of alcoholic wine in Scripture. "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." This would be using it as an anesthetic; a pain killer. But this is not for everyone; he says in v. 6, "unto him that is ready to perish." Of course, they did not have all the pain killers that we have today. In our time, it would not be necessary to do this. We have many anesthetics available for those who are dying. Then, about the only thing available to the average person would have been some kind of alcohol. Alcohol is a depressant; it is not a stimulant, as some think. After several drinks, one gets dizzy; then he will pass out. So this passage teaches that alcoholic beverage would be only for the person who is ready to die; there would be no hope for his life. All that would be possible would be to ease his pain and help him forget his misery.

 

Another passage is Isaiah 5:11. "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!" Obviously this is alcoholic, because it inflames. Why does he say, "Woe unto them"? Verse 12 answers, "...they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands." Everyone knows that when one gives himself to the drinking of alcoholic beverage, he will not be more spiritual, more desirous of learning the Word of God. To the contrary, it causes a person to ignore the Lord. Verses 13-14 reveal two other serious results: people go into captivity (become slaves to something or someone) and Hell enlarges itself! The drinking of alcoholic wine has caused Hell to be enlarged! God does not want anyone to go to Hell; He has given the greatest, dearest gift that He possibly could, to rescue sinners from it. He never made Hell for people. The Lord Jesus Christ said that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41). However, because of evil alcohol, Hell has had an enlargement campaign. Here, then, is a clear warning against drinking alcohol, because God does not want anyone to go to Hell.

 

Isaiah 28:7-8 continues the warning. "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean." What a tragic thing, that even in the days of Isaiah, the priests and prophets were engaged in the drinking of alcoholic wine! Thus we see that the problem of preachers recommending alcohol is not new. Six hundred years before Christ, demon alcohol had worked its way into religion.

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IS IT ALRIGHT FOR A CHRISTIAN TO DRINK MODERATELY?

 

(1) No, even slight drinking impairs one's thinking and lowers alertness to spiritual danger (1 Peter 5:8-9).

(2) No, Christians are not to be controlled by liquor (Ephesians 5:18).

(3) No, Christians are priests, and the Bible forbids priests to drink (1 Peter 2:9; Leviticus 10:8,11).

(4) No, Christians are not to touch the unclean thing (2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1).

(5) No, Christians are to abstain from every form of evil (1Thessalonians 5:22).

(6) No, Christians who drink cause others to stumble (Romans 14:21).

(7) No, wine is a mocker and a deceiver (Proverbs 20:1).  No man who takes an alcoholic beverage to his lips knows exactly where it will lead.

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[GraceSaved]

I guess we can only refer to Bruce Lackey if we want to use anything written outside of scripture.

[LindaR]

I guess we can only refer to Bruce Lackey if we want to use anything written outside of scripture.

Don't be ridiculous....it's an article written for your information.  Take it or leave it.

 

BTW, Dr. Bruce Lackey backs up his commentary with Scripture.

 

Would you prefer that we only refer to you or Jeffrey?

[TheSword]

 

 

 

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then because we have very different methods of interpreting the Bible.

[GraceSaved]

Don't be ridiculous....it's an article written for your information.  Take it or leave it.

 

BTW, Dr. Bruce Lackey backs up his commentary with Scripture.

 

Would you prefer that we only refer to you or Jeffrey?

Of course not.  Don't be ridiculous.  I referred to an outside source but it apparently was not "reliable."

[GraceSaved]

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then because we have very different methods of interpreting the Bible.

Thank you.  Agree to disagree.  At least you're not marking me.  :-)  I use hermeneutics and compare scripture with scripture reading whole chapters.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If one rightly divides the Word of Truth, it is easy to see that wine was not always alcoholic in the Word of God.

Isaiah 27:2-3 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.


The Hebrew word used for "red wine" in the above verse is the word "chemer."  Notice that the verse speaks of a vineyard of chemer (red wine)  A vineyard of alcohol/  Not a chance! 

The word "chemer" is only found in one other verse in the Bible... Deuteronomy 32:14.

 

Deuteronomy 32:14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.

The word "pure" in the latter verse is also the word "chemer"  And the Word of God defines it as something that is pure; i.e., free of corruption.

Now, notice Proverbs 23:31...

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Wait!  God ordained the drinking of red wine in Deuteronomy 32, and reveals that there is a vineyard full of it, yet in Proverbs, the book of Wisdom, the reader is told not to look upon the wine when it is red.

Contradiction?  Not at all!  The Bible is speaking of two different types of wine; fermented and non-fermented.  Proverbs23:31 is fermented and frowned upon, while Deuteronomy 32:14 and Isaiah 27:2 is not fermented and encouraged.

Only those who are blinded by the world's current definition of the word "wine" will not accept the truth that God spoke of both intoxicating and non-intoxicating wines in His Word.

 

[TheSword]

Thank you.  Agree to disagree.  At least you're not marking me.  :-)  I use hermeneutics and compare scripture with scripture reading whole chapters.

 

So do I, but there are many more facets and presuppositions/preunderstandings to hermeneutics that we apparently have different opinions on and that's fine. I certainly won't chastise you for it; but I do strongly disagree.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Of course not.  Don't be ridiculous.  I referred to an outside source but it apparently was not "reliable."

"Wikipedia" is not a reliable source.  As MissDaisy rightly pointed out, anyone can go on that site and add to or take away from whit is written.

[GraceSaved]

I already addressed the "look not" scripture.  I notice the only time people refer to nonalcoholic "wine" is when scripture refers to it in a positive sense, even though Biblical evidence shows a consistent reference that wine is an alcoholic beverage able to make someone drunk if abused.