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In Defense Of Alcohol, God's Blessing To Man


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I know what you mean!!! :D

If wine was non alcohol, then why did Paul in Romans 14 address the issue of causing a brother to stumble by partaking in a non alcoholic drink, why would anyone be offended?
In Collosians 2. What would Paul tell the Collosian church not let anyone judge you for what you drink? Why would u be judged for drinking a non alcoholic drink?

 

I think I made mention of this in a previous post, though I have no idea which one anymore. The assertion isn't that wine is always non-alcoholic, that would be flatly untrue. Rather, that the definition and concept of wine prior to the early 20th century could mean both alcoholic and non-alcoholic and the author's/speaker's intending meaning is made clear by the context. For example, consider the uses of the English word "hand" as it's used today:

 

- An physical appendage at the end of each arm; "My hand hurts"

- Applause; "Give the performer a hand"

- Accolade; "You've got to hand it to him, he's pretty good."

- Help or aid; "Can you give me a hand?"

- A set of cards in poker; "Your hand beats mine. My hand is terrible"

- A measurement of height; "The quarter horse is 16 hands tall"

 

The context of the statement makes the intended meaning of "hand" clear. With regard to the alcoholic vs. non-alcoholic wine, my argument is that it carried both meanins and the context made clear what was being referred to and I agree that Romans 14 and Colossians 2 are clearly talking about alcholic wine.

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So all you would say to someone who has never drank before is, "you should know when to stop."? Drinking alcohol and eating are so vastly different they can't even compare. You're able to gauge fullness shortly after each bite. Alcohol soaks in over time, especially on a stomach full of starchy food, and if one drinks too quickly they'll feel fine one minute and be falling over the next. That seems rather unkind to me to send a brother/sister off to try to toe the line of sin with no warning on where the line is and how to avoid it. Here's the problem with this line of reasoning...no matter how you slice it, every drink takes one step closer to an invisible line and is a flirtation with sin. Consider the following response I wrote to a guy I knew about a year ago who made a similar argument when we were discussing this (the bolded title portion was the point the guy made):

 

The Bible says not to get drunk, but doesn’t say not to drink (Eph 5:18; Titus 2:2, 4, 6; 1 Cor 5:11)

Clearly you can’t get drunk on something non-alcoholic.  An important facet of this, though, is what constitutes being drunk, or rather where is the point of consumption where one is no longer of sound mind or in control.  Where is this point and how does one know when they’ve reached it?  More importantly, how does one know WHEN they will reach it so that they may stop before becoming intoxicated?  Indeed, this point is different for every individual.  However, it also varies for the individual based on numerous outlying factors such as hydration level, recent and subsequent food intake, type and content of the food consumed, blood sugar levels and sensitivity to its changes, etc.

 

Also of importance is what marks the point at which one crosses from sobriety to intoxication?  A buzz?  Slurred speech? A dizzy feeling?  I contend that is the very moment one’s thought process is altered and their ability to discern right from wrong begins to diminish.  Speaking from experience as both a participant and an observer, this typically happens even before a person feels a “buzz” and continues to get worse as alcohol continues to enter the system and ends only when all alcohol is metabolized out.  The bottom line on my point here is that if your assertion that it only becomes bad or sinful when one crosses the line from sobriety to intoxication then drinking any amount of alcohol is playing a very dangerous game.   Every sip of alcohol is like playing Russian roulette with sin because you don’t know which chamber (or sip) is loaded with a bullet (or sin).  The only certainty is that there is a bullet somewhere in your glass or bottle.  It is trying to get as close to the line as possible without stepping over it and incurring consequence.  The problem is that the line is so blurry that there’s no way to tell when one is about to cross it.

 

Additionally, I think this line of thought also confuses what is the cause and what is the effect.  This says that drunkenness/intoxication is the cause of debauchery (sin).  However, the nature of the wine (alcohol) is what causes the debauchery and drunkenness/intoxication is merely the description of the condition.  From a technical and teleological perspective, the alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream which then immediately begins to degrade motor skills and cognitive ability.  It is not as if the body waits until there is a predetermined amount of alcohol stored up in the system to begin to exhibit symptoms of intoxication.  From the moment the first sip of alcohol enters the system it begins to cause an effect and the accumulation of alcohol merely causes accumulated effect.  To bring this back around to Biblical principle, consider the following excerpt from Wine in the Bible: A Biblical Study on the Use of Alcoholic Beverages:

 

“I found one of the most powerful Biblical indictments against intoxicating wine in Ephesians 5:18, where Paul condemns wine as the cause of debauchery and shows the irreconcilable contrast between the spirit of wine and the Holy Spirit of God. To my great surprise, however, I found that most English translations and commentaries have chosen to translate or interpret Ephesians 5:18 by making "drunkenness" rather than "wine" the cause of debauchery. This was surprising to me because not only the Catholic and Protestant Italian translations, with which I am most familiar, but also numerous other ancient and modern translations, all translate Paul’s text as saying that in the very nature of wine is debauchery…The translators’ bias toward wine became most evident in the study of the apostolic admonitions to abstinence, expressed through the verb nepho and the adjective nephalios. The first meaning of the verb is "to abstain from wine" and of the adjective "abstinent, without wine." Yet these words have been consistently translated with their secondary sense of being "temperate, sober, steady," rather than by their primary sense of being "abstinent." Such biased and inaccurate translations have misled many sincere Christians into believing that the Bible teaches moderation in the use of alcoholic beverages, rather than abstinence from them.

 

It was equally surprising for me to discover that the fundamental reason given by Peter and Paul for their call to a life of mental vigilance and physical abstinence is eschatological, namely, preparation to live in the holy presence of Christ at His soon Coming...To abstain from intoxicating substances represents a tangible response to God’s invitation to make concrete preparation for the physical return of Christ.”

I don't tell anybody anything or "send them off."  I don't encourage anyone to drink and I don't discourage it if they choose to.  It seem you're trying to put me in a position where I'm responsible for what others do.

 

Drinking on an empty stomach or drinking too fast.  Sugar level, hydration level.  That would be a limit someone should be aware of knowing their own body and how they tolerate.  You're answering your own questions and asking me questions I can't answer for others.

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Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

I am both offended and made weak by Jeffery and GraceSave's liberty.

Then I suggest you stop reading the thread.  Or do you not have self-control?

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It is too late I know your drinking and it has already offended and weakened me.

 

So what are you and Jeffery going to do about?

 

Obey God's word and stop drinking alcoholic beverages?

 

Or

 

Disobey God's word in in Romans 14 and continue in your liberty that offends and weakens me and others?

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It is too late I know your drinking and it has already offended and weakened me.

 

So what are you and Jeffery going to do about?

 

Obey God's word and stop drinking alcoholic beverages?

 

Or

 

Disobey God's word in in Romans 14 and continue in your liberty that offends and weakens me and others?

If you're trying to shame me for something I'm not doing, it's not going to work.

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Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Since alcohol has the ability to deceive, can it truthfully be said one knows his own limits?  I submit to you that one who drinks has already been deceived and therefore is over the limits that he assumes he has.



Is this what you are going to tell our Lord when you meet Him and have to explain to Him why you said these thing about His saints and Him who partook of His gift
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I don't tell anybody anything or "send them off."  I don't encourage anyone to drink and I don't discourage it if they choose to.

 

Drinking on an empty stomach or drinking too fast.  Sugar level, hydration level.  That would be a limit someone should be aware of knowing their own body and how they tolerate.  You're answering your own questions and asking me questions I can't answer for others.

 

I think you missed my overall point (possibly because I didn't state it well enough). My main point is that even if an individual drink is not sinful, every drink is taking a stride of unknown length toward an invisible line of sin because you can't define where sober ends and where drunk begins for anybody. Every sip is flirting with that line and trying to get as close to sin as possible without actually going over. In my opinion, for what little it may be worth, such a behavior reveals an attitude of self-will/-desire over God's will/desire in the same way kids hold their finger inches away from something you've told them not to touch while saying "I'm not touching it! I'm not touching it!" (not intended to be a reference back to Proverbs in any way)

 

To use the comparison to sex that Jeffery brought up earlier. Suppose I, a married man, become friends with another woman independent of my wife. There's no sin in having friends right? Maybe we text each other or send friendly messages on Facebook. No big deal right? It's not a sin to talk to my friends. Maybe we get close and become each other's confidants and we lean on each other emotionally. My wife shouldn't have a problem with any of this right? I'm not doing anything wrong. Suddenly we start having "feelings" for each other and just want to be around one another. We're not doing anything wrong, just hanging out as friends, I know my wife doesn't like it but it's fine because we're not having an affair. Sure there's hugging but it's not adultery. Yeah, we're close and I didn't expect any feelings to develop...they just did. Do I need go farther or does everybody see how that little, unfortunately common, scenario ends? Would it be better to just use use common sense and trust that I'll know when things have gone too far? Or perhaps not to have exclusive friendship with women other than my wife and ensure that road is never even travelled?

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If you're trying to shame me for something I'm not doing, it's not going to work.


Or as in Romans Paul say do it before God, ie; do it alone where your not bothering anybody

GS, weaker brother, watch thy step!
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Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

I am both offended and made weak by Jeffery and GraceSave's liberty.

until they accept the truth, they have liberty to walk after the lusts of their eyes and flesh.

Of course, while they are advocating putting alcohol to their lips, they are rejecting walking in and with the Spirit of God.
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