Kjv Vs Others

[John81]

Why do any of us fellowship, have friendships with, discuss things with those who use MVs?

 

A persons choice of Bible versions doesn't mean they aren't our brothers/sisters in Christ. Some may really want to learn about the KJB/MV issue. Some may simply be looking to fellowship with fellow believers (it's not that hard to quote from the KJB even if that's not ones preferred or only Bible version).

 

There have been some good folks show up here who are not KJO. Typically they made not issue of the KJO position and simply joined in fellowship and discussion. That's different from those who show up and do nothing but attack the KJO position.

[swathdiver]

Why do any of us fellowship, have friendships with, discuss things with those who use MVs?

 

A persons choice of Bible versions doesn't mean they aren't our brothers/sisters in Christ. 

 

You guys have hi-jacked this thread!  

 

I don't (first 2) because the bible says so.  I've never met an MV adherent who wasn't very worldly and cared less for doctrine and the things of God.

[Dr James Ach]

Taking from the other thread, the most current account for best selling Bibles in America for 2013 still has the NIV at number one, still followed by the KJB. The ESV moved up to 3rd, with the NLT still in forth and the NKJV dropping to 5th.

The one thing they don't take into account is how many Bible's are given away. Since the KJV has the cheapest production and the most generous publishers, and doesn't have to fight with copyright messes, the KJV is given away far more than any other version. But, because that doesn't constitute a 'sale', it doesn't make the statistics.

[Dr James Ach]

The video is pretty good for someone that's hearing this for the first time, but there are a few things that are not entirely accurate, just minor.

 

When he says that Westcott & Hort claimed that 'we have the best and oldest manuscripts', that's not entirely what they said or meant. When Constantine von Tischendorf "discovered" the Codex Sinaiticus in the St. Catherine's Monastery, it was THAT manuscript that was touted (and is still) to be the world's oldest surviving manuscript. 

 

When W&H went to committee to "update" the English, they were instructed NOT to tamper with the Authorized Version and were to use the Textus Receptus for their exemplar. Instead, they convinced the committee that the TR was inferior (what Wescott called, "that vile text, Textus Receptus"), and using Tischendorf's 8th edition, produced a completely different Greek text, and then translated the RSV of 1881 from that.

 

The Sinaiticus was not discovered all at once, but piece by piece over a period of about 15-20 years. At first, "scholars" went with the story that Tischendorf himself wrote in "How We Got Our Gospels" that he discovered it in a basket used for kindling. The monks were using it to feed their furnaces for heat. Tischendorf stopped them and took off with 43 leaves, and went back to retrieve more later. Scholars now, realizing how ridiculous Tischendorf story sounds, are denouncing Tischendorf's trash-can story, and claiming that he found it bound in a red velvet cloth (which is only PARTLY true, but only of the REMAINING leaves that he didn't get on his first trip). Tischendorf had received endorsements and assistance from the Pope of Rome for this project, and received glowing accolades from Rome for its discovery, and was invited to Rome to chat with the Pope personally (a very odd anomaly considering Tischendorf was a Protestant scholar).

 

The one HUGE problem ignored by scholars which has now been resurrected by Chris Pinto in a documentary , Tares Among the Wheat, is that Sinaiticus is NOT a 4th century ms, but a modern forgery by a Greek paleographer named Constantine Simonides. Simonides wanted to make a copy of the Greek NT for the Russian Czar, after finishing his work on Mt. Athos in Greece,  the ms ended up at St. Catherine's (he explains how in published letters challenging Tischendorf).

 

When TIschendorf first published his work, Simonides caught wind of it, and recognized it as his own work. Ironically, Simonides had also claimed to have translated the only known Greek copy of the Sheperd of Hermes, which coincidentally, was included in Tischendorf's copy of the Sinaiticus. After Tischendorf had accused Simonides of lying about the Hermes Codex, and Simonides proved him wrong, Tischendorf was forced to write a public retraction of his accusations against Simonides. However, Simonides continued to publicly challenge Tischendorf to debate, and stated he could and would prove by markings he had made in the mss that he was the author of the ms. Simonides showed up to the debate, Tischendorf did not.

 

Steven Avery, and my brother, Elisha Weismann (Elisha and Steven are very good at reading majuscule Greek script and more familiar with paleography than I am which is why I'm just watching the show. I have the 1551 "TR" memorized, but that's a different type of script), have spent countless hours researching the many corrections in the Sinaiticus, and have found that that the Simonides claim is accurate, and that the mss that make up the Sinaiticus are NOT 4th century manuscripts. There are correctors who use 9th century minuscule script which was not in use in the 4th century, there are interpretations of Revelation chapters 7-8 based on 12th century Arabic astrology and Islamic prophecies in some of the foot notes (which are actually written in Arabic in the footnotes), there are certain heavy ink and fine writing marks that were not typical of 4th century scribal practices, among a host of other anomalies that show the Sinaiticus is NOT a genuine 4th century ms. I'll start a thread on this subject in the future once they are done with enough of their research that they can start producing articles about them (I think Steven may have some done already, I'd have to ask Elisha).

[candlelight]

The one thing they don't take into account is how many Bible's are given away. Since the KJV has the cheapest production and the most generous publishers, and doesn't have to fight with copyright messes, the KJV is given away far more than any other version. But, because that doesn't constitute a 'sale', it doesn't make the statistics.

 

An evangelist that I know said something to this effect, Dr. Ach.  I am glad you pointed it out.   Thank you.

[John81]

It's true there is no way to count how many Bibles are given away. Even so, if a Bible is given away because it's cheap that's not an endorsement of that Bible while purchased Bibles do convey an endorsement of sorts.

[candlelight]

It's true there is no way to count how many Bibles are given away. Even so, if a Bible is given away because it's cheap that's not an endorsement of that Bible while purchased Bibles do convey an endorsement of sorts.

, LOL swath.   It is the same with the RCC. The Vatican claims that the RCC has the most number of "Christians" in the world.  However, they are basing those statistics on Infant Baptism.  Many people, like myself, were part of Rome and were baptized as an infant in the RCC.  However, a lot people have left Rome, and are Bible believing Christians.

 

Sometimes, statistics aren't thorough.  I don't base too many things on statistics.  Many times they aren't accurate.

[John81]

I don't believe the count of how many people buy what Bible proves anything good or bad about a Bible, it only proves what people choose to spend their money on.

 

Actually, considering there are very few KJO folks in America and there are few churches which use the KJB exclusively, and there are many more watered down and worldly Christians than actual born again living for Christ Christians, it should be no surprise that an MV would sell more in America.

 

As I think I mentioned before, what might actually be more surprising is that the KJB has been holding at being the second most purchased version in America. This in spite of the many attacks against the KJB, the lack of use and/or endorsement of the KJB by so many pastors, churches and denominations.

 

While sales of Bibles is a pretty accurate reflection of which Bibles folks are buying most, statistics of how many Christians there are, whether in America or the world, are based upon "guesstimations" and most often are extremely far off because they count Catholics and often just about anyone even remotely making a claim to be Christian; including Mormons, JWs, etc.

 

The NIV, which I've always considered to be among the most inferior, hard to use versions, has been heavily promoted over the years. Many companies have been convinced to use the NIV in their Sunday school, VBS, homeschool and other publications. Many churches embraced the NIV for it's "simplicity". While I agree the language used is simple, it's not simple as far as conveying the Word of God.

 

Meanwhile, even among those who use one or more MVs, there are many pastors and laity alike who also use the KJB.

 

Interestingly, over the past couple of years I've heard pastors on the radio using the KJB to better explain what they just read from an MV.

 

For some reason the NLT has gained in popularity in recent years. I'm not sure why. While I think it reads slightly better than an NIV it's still a very poor version.

 

In the end, I will stick with the KJB because the Lord directed me to do such over a quarter-century or so ago.

[candlelight]

True.  However, I can attest to the fact that I grew up with the KJV.  Someone gave it to my dad in 1972.  That was the year that I made the sacrament of "First Communion" in the RCC.  My RCC sister told me that she used to sit and read it as a little girl.

Also, during the 1950's, my mom used to work in downtown Cleveland, OH.  She passed by a bookstore, one day, and purchased the KJV for her parents as a gift.  My grandparents used to sit and read it together in their old age.  My mom told me that her sister (she has passed away, as well) had the Bible.  I hope it is still in my mom's family.

The year my son made his "First Communion" I went to the bookstore to by him a Bible.  This was one month before I enrolled him in VBS at my IFB church.  Anyway, the man at the bookstore directed me to the KJV.  He said it was the most popular Bible.  I go to a bookstore, close to my home, to shop.  They carry the KJV and many materials to go with it.  It is good to know that it has not gone out of fashion.  Praise God for His Holy word!    

[John81]

Most older folks, such as our parents and grandparents, grew up when the KJB was either all there was or there was only the RSV as an option. Plus, these folks tended to grow up with parents or in churches which used the KJB and most family Bibles were KJB.

 

My Grandpa's and Mom's old Bibles were all KJB. My first children's type Bible was KJB but my first full Bible was a RSV presented to me while in Methodist Sunday school. I still have that RSV but I don't use it.

 

So far I've not seen a Christian bookstore that doesn't carry the KJB but I've seen many which carry many more MVs than KJBs.

 

Thankfully the KJB is still easy to obtain. Often nearby dollar stores will have pew style KJBs for a dollar. There are still many homeschool materials and publications for Sunday school VBS and other things available in the KJB.

 

While I know a lot of people who do quote from MVs, there are many who use MVs yet when they cite a quote it's in the KJB.

[candlelight]

Most older folks, such as our parents and grandparents, grew up when the KJB was either all there was or there was only the RSV as an option. Plus, these folks tended to grow up with parents or in churches which used the KJB and most family Bibles were KJB.

 

My Grandpa's and Mom's old Bibles were all KJB. My first children's type Bible was KJB but my first full Bible was a RSV presented to me while in Methodist Sunday school. I still have that RSV but I don't use it.

 

So far I've not seen a Christian bookstore that doesn't carry the KJB but I've seen many which carry many more MVs than KJBs.

 

Thankfully the KJB is still easy to obtain. Often nearby dollar stores will have pew style KJBs for a dollar. There are still many homeschool materials and publications for Sunday school VBS and other things available in the KJB.

 

While I know a lot of people who do quote from MVs, there are many who use MVs yet when they cite a quote it's in the KJB.

 

There is a bookstore in my hometown which doesn't carry the KJV or any other KJV materials.  They carry a lot of NKJV Bibles and call it "The Baptist Bible."  

I have seen the KJV in the dollar stores.  I have often wondered if Christians own those stores b/c I can always find Christian coloring books for young children, Bibles (as I have mentioned) and also Christian children's stories.

[HappyChristian]

 

You guys have hi-jacked this thread.

So mature.

[candlelight]

LOL, HC.  It's just something that happens on OB.

[Worship Love Faith Joy]

i switched to the KJV because modern bibles leave out verses like Acts 8:37 and Matthew 18:11. GOD Bless anyone who uses the KJV!

[ASongOfDegrees]

The one thing they don't take into account is how many Bible's are given away. Since the KJV has the cheapest production and the most generous publishers, and doesn't have to fight with copyright messes, the KJV is given away far more than any other version. But, because that doesn't constitute a 'sale', it doesn't make the statistics.

It would account for popularity, though.

 

Your cheap "gift bibles" are usually KJV too.