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Community Vs. Fellowship Or The Same?


nucreature

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Mike, I have visited and known members from certain churches where the pastor was single leader and ran smoothly. Unfortunately, I have seen a few, especially the one I was involved in that was alot of issues.

And I will agree with you on this, sir. I have seen both, myself. I have also seen deacons try to throw out a pastor because he was ill-he was still able to pastor, still doing the job fine, but the head deacon had convinced the others that he would make a better pastor. When they approached him and told him he should step down, and he refused, (mind you, this didn't come from the church, just the deacons), they all walked out. And this was done publicly before the whole church-no vote, no discussion, just a showdown between the deacons and the pastor. It ended up splitting the church and it never recovered.

 

Mind you, the head deacon was a man who, because of sin, had been put out of another church, and through the love and patience of the pastor I speak of, had repented and he restored him into his church. They worked together, and eventually he was trusted enough to be his head deacon. The none day the deacon's wife got mad at the pastor because on Easter he didn't preach a traditional Easter message, as she thought he should., and she publicly rebuked him and walked out in service.  And still the pastor kept her husband as head deacon, probably a mistake. This was his repayment from the man he loved and restored and placed into a position of authority and responsibility. Deacons often have way more power than is biblical.

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Deacons don't have the "authority". It is led by elders. I beleive that it is more inline with NT teaching

 1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Titus 1:For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

 

If you noticed, the word is used in a plural sense. I have learned that a single authority in a church can be a dangerous thing. A single pastor can have "yes"men as deacons that rubber stamp all of his wishes, or as in the cases I have see, that the pastor fires the deacon who questions his authority.

 

 1 Tim 3:5 is part of the whole chapter that is describing the qualifications of leaders. I don't think it is a verse of laying the foundation of a single pastor role.  

1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

This tell us that not all of the elders labored in the word and doctrine. Therefore all elders are not pastors or leaders since they must labor in the word and doctrine to be able to take care of the people.

As previously stated I don't believe that deacons have any power over the congregation. 

Can the pastor fire a deacon; since he was elected by the people and not appointed by him?

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This tell us that not all of the elders labored in the word and doctrine. Therefore all elders are not pastors or leaders since they must labor in the word and doctrine to be able to take care of the people.

I disagree, 2 of 6 of our elders are on staff due to the size of our church just cannot afford to have the other 4 on staff. I mentioned earlier all of our community groups are led by either an elder or a deacon. All of our elders preach at worship services. A couple preach more than others. I believe Scripture points to an elder led church and what I have seen with my eyes in my experiences, I think its true. Like I told Mike, there are some good men that I have seen and heard of are good, but far and few between.

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Some of these matters also depend upon the size of the church. A small church with a tiny congregation has much fewer needs than would a church with a large congregation.

 

When our pastor first came to our church the congregation amounted to about 30-40. Our pastor was young and he handled most of the things around the church himself. There was a church board made up of the leading men who were selected by the congregation for that task. Our pastor refined some of the ways the board conducted business and things worked well for years.

 

As the congregation grew, with an average Sunday attendance now over 200, the needs for assistance and leadership grew. We now have an associate pastor and three area specific boards which helps the senior pastor and main church board lead and carry out the things of the church.

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I disagree, 2 of 6 of our elders are on staff due to the size of our church just cannot afford to have the other 4 on staff. I mentioned earlier all of our community groups are led by either an elder or a deacon. All of our elders preach at worship services. A couple preach more than others. I believe Scripture points to an elder led church and what I have seen with my eyes in my experiences, I think its true. Like I told Mike, there are some good men that I have seen and heard of are good, but far and few between.

Disagree with what? I Tim 5:17  tells us of elders who labour in the word and doctrine are worthy of double honor; therefore there must be elders who are not worthy of double honor because they do not labour in the word and doctrine.

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Jeffrey.

 

Its my understanding that you are not IFB; but SBC. Is this correct? It helps us to understand folks better if we know where they're coming from; which is the primarily reason I started the "Members Profile" thread.

 

On your Bio I noticed that your interest was "Redeemer Fellowship". I went to the website  and went through some of the menus. One that caught my attention was the "The House Pub": (the word Pub caught my attention) and I went to that link where I found the "Beer Menu". My question is simply does your church/fellowship condone drinking beer and/or any alcoholic drinks?

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Disagree with what? I Tim 5:17  tells us of elders who labour in the word and doctrine are worthy of double honor; therefore there must be elders who are not worthy of double honor because they do not labour in the word and doctrine.

They are still leaders none the less weather they make their living in full time ministry or not.

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Jeffrey.

 

Its my understanding that you are not IFB; but SBC. Is this correct? It helps us to understand folks better if we know where they're coming from; which is the primarily reason I started the "Members Profile" thread.

 

On your Bio I noticed that your interest was "Redeemer Fellowship". I went to the website  and went through some of the menus. One that caught my attention was the "The House Pub": (the word Pub caught my attention) and I went to that link where I found the "Beer Menu". My question is simply does your church/fellowship condone drinking beer and/or any alcoholic drinks?

Yes, Scripture is clear the consumption of alcohol is not a sin, drunkeness is. Matter of fact, If you study what the Bible says, not what a denomination teaches, you see that alcohol is a blessing from God. That is our church's teaching on the subject. Charles Finney started the Temperance Movement the mid-late 1800's and up to that point many churches did not have an issue with alcohol. Even in denominations around the world, it's not an issue. In America, it is.

 Funny you bring this up, it was a study in alcohol that started me to question my stance in the IFB. I was trying to prove a co-worker wrong about alcohol and after studying the Word of God, not what my pastor said, to what Scripture says I had to ask what I was following. God or a movement.

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If we are going to do the alcohol thing, may I suggest we start a new thread, or re-open one of the older threads on that subject? Thanks, guys.

Totally agree. However being an IFB, I wonder why we should even discuss it.

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I know of IFBs who don't believe the Bible teaches total abstinence and I know of two, possibly three, IFB churches which preach that drinking small amounts of alcohol is biblically acceptable.

 

Some IFB churches and teachings have changed a great deal over the past decade or so.

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I know of IFBs who don't believe the Bible teaches total abstinence and I know of two, possibly three, IFB churches which preach that drinking small amounts of alcohol is biblically acceptable.

 

Some IFB churches and teachings have changed a great deal over the past decade or so.

Guess I need to get out more often; however, down here in the bible belt, I don't know of any.

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Yes, Scripture is clear the consumption of alcohol is not a sin, drunkeness is. Matter of fact, If you study what the Bible says, not what a denomination teaches, you see that alcohol is a blessing from God. That is our church's teaching on the subject. Charles Finney started the Temperance Movement the mid-late 1800's and up to that point many churches did not have an issue with alcohol. Even in denominations around the world, it's not an issue. In America, it is.

 Funny you bring this up, it was a study in alcohol that started me to question my stance in the IFB. I was trying to prove a co-worker wrong about alcohol and after studying the Word of God, not what my pastor said, to what Scripture says I had to ask what I was following. God or a movement.

I for one would like to know how you arrived at these conclusions? If you care to elaborate, there is a thread "Alcohol: A Bibical case for Abstinance"  which started on 16 Sep 13.

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Deacons don't have the "authority". It is led by elders. I beleive that it is more inline with NT teaching
1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

If you noticed, the word is used in a plural sense. I have learned that a single authority in a church can be a dangerous thing. A single pastor can have "yes"men as deacons that rubber stamp all of his wishes, or as in the cases I have see, that the pastor fires the deacon who questions his authority.

1 Tim 3:5 is part of the whole chapter that is describing the qualifications of leaders. I don't think it is a verse of laying the foundation of a single pastor role.

The Titus and acts passages are talking of multiple churches - to use singular would be grammatically incorrect but the use of plural does not necessarily mean multiple elders in each church. It could easily mean a single elder in each church - but it is not actually dictating either.
The Timothy passage is also not talking about multiple elders in a single church as it is talking of quals generally.

As to "they who labour in the word and doctrine" does not indicate that there are other elders who labour in different things - it is talking about reward for effort - those worthy of double honour are those who LABOUR in the word and doctrine as distinct from those who are lazy.

Basically, none of these passages are teaching about the number of elders.
There are indications of single and multiple pastors in the Bible.
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