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Way Of Life - Bill Gaither's Disobedience To God's Word


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Please answer me this question for clarification.  I came from AOG.  I now belong to an IFB church.  Because of where I came from, should I not be allowed in the IFB church?  My Pastor came from a Catholic background.      

I don't think that's what he's saying, Laura.  He's talking about churches that don't identify with any particular denomination or belief, but combine enough so that everyone is comfortable.  In actuality, those type churches are inter-denominational.  The non-denominational churches can be more of a combination, but the ones I've attended or known about have tended to lean baptistic in belief.

~~~~~

Folks, let's not turn this thread into an argument about church styles.  There is truth that all too often IFB churches are lumped into a category of criticism just on the basis of being IFB.  And that is wrong - and, actually, that isn't what David Cloud does...he points to specifics in specific churches, normally.  Anyway - 

 

It is a truth that some IFB churches accepted Gaither's music.  In point of fact, there are some songs Gaither and his crew have written that are very good  as far as words go - performance is different....It is a truth that some IFB churches have accepted other forms of music that are not good as well.

 

That said, it is not a disrespectful thing to point out that some IFB churches have gone that way.  But I do understand what Jerry is saying - sometimes it seems that some people take every opportunity to criticize IFB just in toto.  That is not right.  But, Jerry, I honestly don't think that's what John meant in his statement.  I think he was expanding on the thought you mentioned in your first post - although you didn't point to IFB and he did.

 

I'm Baptist because I believe Baptists align more closely to scripture than any other belief.  That doesn't mean others are completely wrong (I know of a Wesleyan church which, believe it or not, is more IFB than some IFB churches I could name), but just that Baptist is more right.  And I say that without smugness or overweening pride.   :wink  I'm IFB because I believe it is more biblical than Baptist churches that have a hierarchy to whom they answer.

 

A study of Baptist history can stir the blood in excitement and awe at how God has worked.  Candlelight has mentioned the book a couple of times, but America in Crimson Red is an excellent book to read for the history of Baptists in America.  The Coming Destruction of the Baptist People  is also a fascinating read as Bro. Bellar documents how the Baptist faith is being obliterated and replaced...and IFB are contributing to it unkowingly in many cases.

 

Anyhooo - let's not turn this into an argument on church styles.  Let's keep it to the topic, ok?  Thanks.

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I don't think that's what he's saying, Laura.  He's talking about churches that don't identify with any particular denomination or belief, but combine enough so that everyone is comfortable.  In actuality, those type churches are inter-denominational.  The non-denominational churches can be more of a combination, but the ones I've attended or known about have tended to lean baptistic in belief.

~~~~~

I'm Baptist because I believe Baptists align more closely to scripture than any other belief.  That doesn't mean others are completely wrong (I know of a Wesleyan church which, believe it or not, is more IFB than some IFB churches I could name), but just that Baptist is more right.  And I say that without smugness or overweening pride.   :wink  I'm IFB because I believe it is more biblical than Baptist churches that have a hierarchy to whom they answer.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  I know some Baptists that believe only Baptists are saved.  I just wanted to clarify, for my own understanding, that a comment wasn't headed in that direction.

 

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Please answer me this question for clarification.  I came from AOG.  I now belong to an IFB church.  Because of where I came from, should I not be allowed in the IFB church?  My Pastor came from a Catholic background.      

 

Here's my .02 cents.  A non-denomination church doesn't put much emphasis on doctrine so as not to offend anyone lest they lose them.  

A strong IFB church will accept into membership all who are scripturally saved and baptized and not allow the dross from that person's old denomination to further separate them from the Lord or influence others in the local church.  

 

Put another way, when I came to my IFB church, I came to learn their ways (bible ways), not introduce the errors I'd been taught at Catholic and rock-n-roll churches.

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Here's my .02 cents.  A non-denomination church doesn't put much emphasis on doctrine so as not to offend anyone lest they lose them.  

A strong IFB church will accept into membership all who are scripturally saved and baptized and not allow the dross from that person's old denomination to further separate them from the Lord or influence others in the local church.  

 

Put another way, when I came to my IFB church, I came to learn their ways (bible ways), not introduce the errors I'd been taught at Catholic and rock-n-roll churches.

Actually, as LuAnne pointed out, that's a false generalization. While some of the nondenominational churches go that route, it's moreso those which are actual interdenominational. As LuAnne mentioned, there are many non-denoms which are very biblically sound as a biblically sound IFB church.

 

We currently attend a nondenominational church which was founded and formed by Baptists in the 1800s. At that time politics had taken up a major place among Baptist churches, including issues that led to many splits, including that which brought about the SBC. In order to separate themselves from the politics, these Baptists chose to form their church as a nondenominational so the separation from all that political fighting would be clear, and to make it clear they were totally an independent church. The foundation of the church was biblical Baptist then and it still is today. Both our senior pastor and associate pastor are Baptists. Those who want to join our church have to be biblically born again and in agreement with our churches statement of faith, which is biblical Baptist. We don't water down anything to draw folks in, we don't adopt the ways of those who used to attend an AOG, Methodist, Catholic or any other church.

 

Sad to say, but the IFB churches still in this area have turned to the Left. One or more of these is true of the remaining IFB churches here: they have dropped the KJB, added CCM and/or modern Southern Gospel, dropped dress standards, dropped separation standards (mostly for the sake of politics and community events), have brought in younger, less staunch on the Word pastors, don't preach the whole Bible.

 

As I've said before, praise God for the IFB churches still standing true! As well, I praise God for all other churches which still stand true as well. And praise God for all the pastors firmly standing upon the Word of God and preaching the whole Word of God.

 

Of the older non-denom churches I'm familiar with, they are of the conservative, traditional IFB type. Of many of the newer ones which call themselves non-denom that I'm familiar with, they are anywhere from watered down to worldly.

 

One of the best IFB pastors I've known was fired from his church for refusing to go along with the deacons and elders who wanted to "tame the preaching" and make the church "more open to new folks coming in". After that the church called many other churches telling them not to hire their former pastor and giving a bad report to those who contacted them for a reference. I'm not sure if he's still there or not, but the last I knew he had finally found a pastorate in a conservative, Bible-Baptist style non-denom church in Wisconsin or some other upper Midwest state.

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First, I don't put much trust in a man who will hire a long haired hippie to sing in his band (Guy Penrod). Matter of fact, Bill's hair is a shame as well. I don't say that to be mean. The Bible says it's a shame. 

 

Bill has written some good lyrics. But the worldly music he puts with them, and the associations he maintains, makes me wonder whose side he is really on.

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As I asked before, I ask again, what did I say that run down IFB churches?

 

Have you contacted David Cloud and told him he's running down IFB churches for discussing what's going on within them?

 

I've answered that question. He is an IFB, your a member of a  nondenominational church, that is why I said your looking into the IFB Churches though the prejudices of being a member of a nondenominational on a forum that's for IFB.

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The way I see it, is that John and others are just making statements about IFB churches.  What's wrong with that?  Don't we all do that?

Yes, I would contact David Cloud and let him know that what he is doing about talking badly about IFB churches is wrong.  Let's see how he responds, shall we?  :nuts:  

 

Yes, but I don't believe he pays much attention to what's posted on here.
 
As I stated John has done this several times, & picks out the IFB to put down more often than any others. And I have asked him not to do so, yet he keeps it up. I have posted many links to the rich history of the people named Baptist several times just for him. But he seems to disagree with it.
 
I was not trying highjack the topic, I just wish that John who attends a & is a member of a nondenominational church, would stop running down IFB Churches. with that said we need to protect our rich history, no matter what the topic may be.
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Some IFB churches accepted a few of Gaither's early songs before CCM ever gained in popularity.

 

The time will soon come when the only way some IFBs will be able to separate themselves from modern music is to separate themselves from IFB and gather under a new name.

Hey guys....he said "some" IFB churches. Give him a break, huh? The way I read it, he's partial to IFB churches; not against them.

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Please answer me this question for clarification.  I came from AOG.  I now belong to an IFB church.  Because of where I came from, should I not be allowed in the IFB church?  My Pastor came from a Catholic background.      

 

1st,let me say this, I've set with a Assembly of God church member many times in the coffee shop & we have had many discussion & disagreements on church doctrine yet there has never been a cross word between us.

 

We do not accept members from the Assembly of God by letter nor statement. We will accept them by their profession of faith saved by grace though faith in Jesus Christ, not of works, not of self with them being baptized. And the same thing would be true for a Catholic.

 

Oh, the Assembly of God person I mentioned is an Assembly of God preacher, we are friends & always friendly to one another.

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I believe we need to be careful not to let "labeling" baptists destroy us from within. We have IB (Independent Baptist) and IFB (Independent Fundamental Baptist) and

OFIFB (Old Fashioned Independent Fundamental Baptist). Needless to say there will be more coming down the road. Maybe we should just call ourselves Christians and let the chips from the outside world fall where they may.

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1st,let me say this, I've set with a Assembly of God church member many times in the coffee shop & we have had many discussion & disagreements on church doctrine yet there has never been a cross word between us.

 

We do not accept members from the Assembly of God by letter nor statement. We will accept them by their profession of faith saved by grace though faith in Jesus Christ, not of works, not of self with them being baptized. And the same thing would be true for a Catholic.

 

Oh, the Assembly of God person I mentioned is an Assembly of God preacher, we are friends & always friendly to one another.

Excellent.  That's how Jesus accepts us.  Romans 10:9.  Not by our titles.  I go to an IFB church because they are the closest to Biblical principles and a place I feel I can learn and grow.  I don't call myself Baptist.  Not that I am ashamed if someone calls me Baptist but I don't want to be instantly labeled.  I am Christian. Acts 11:12  Since Christian is a broad term these days, I tell people I am a "believer"...that gets them to ask me what I believe and I can share my faith.    

Edited by LauraJones
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I've answered that question. He is an IFB, your a member of a  nondenominational church, that is why I said your looking into the IFB Churches though the prejudices of being a member of a nondenominational on a forum that's for IFB.

As Bro Matt has made clear many times, one doesn't have to attend an IFB church to be IFB. Plus, I've also pointed out to you that I'm a member of the IFB church whose IFB pastor baptized me many years ago.

 

You certainly make a lot of assumptions. Your declaring that attending a nondenominational church makes me prejudice is a very prejudicial statement in and of itself. In your declaration your wrongly prejudge myself, and in your ignorance (it's true meaning, not a slur) you prejudge a church you know nothing about. In casting such disparaging comments you are casting our Baptist pastors in an ill light, as well as my IFB pastor which fully, without reservation, endorses that nondenominational church and her Baptist pastors.

 

You have yet to even come up with an answer as to how my post put down IFBs. Yet you make a baseless charge and then proceed to attack my character, the character of a church you know nothing about, and three fine Baptist pastors.  

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Yes, but I don't believe he pays much attention to what's posted on here.
 
As I stated John has done this several times, & picks out the IFB to put down more often than any others. And I have asked him not to do so, yet he keeps it up. I have posted many links to the rich history of the people named Baptist several times just for him. But he seems to disagree with it.
 
I was not trying highjack the topic, I just wish that John who attends a & is a member of a nondenominational church, would stop running down IFB Churches. with that said we need to protect our rich history, no matter what the topic may be.

 

How is pointing out that some IFB churches use Gaither music "running down IFB churches"?

 

Here again you attack my character. I read every post in a thread I'm posting in.

 

This is primarily an IFB forum, I'm IFB, I'm a member of an IFB church, so naturally not only myself, but most others here discuss matters specific to IFB churches.

 

Indeed, there are many good things in our Baptist history, but unfortunately some folks have wrote many false things and also made wild guesses which they try to pass off as fact. The truth of Baptist history doesn't need any embellishment and we don't have to try and mimic the Catholics by stretching and distorting things in an attempt to say Baptists have existed since the beginning of the church.

 

So back to the point of the thread, which didn't originate with me, Gaither music is popular in many churches, including many IFB churches. Obviously many IFB folks have no problem with this. Cloud links the popularity of the Gaithers with the growing acceptance of CCM, which is also spreading among a variety of churches, including IFBs. Chappell, his church and college, among the largest and most influential in IFB use a variety of adapted CCM. The Sword of the Lord, of which "camp" Chappell is in, has decided to remain silent upon the matter. Right there is a mighty big wing of IFBs either outright accepting Gaither and CCM style music or tacitly approving of such. Those are just facts, not put downs. Again, some IFBs obviously like this while some don't. If trends continue as they are, there will likely be some form of split in the future based upon this issue.

 

The churches I attend, we still sing the hymns from the old hymnals. Many churches no longer do this. That's their choice, and if we shouldn't discuss it because it's viewed as putting down all of IFB, then we are going to have to block the David Cloud feeds and establish new rules prohibiting such topics.

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As Bro Matt has made clear many times, one doesn't have to attend an IFB church to be IFB. Plus, I've also pointed out to you that I'm a member of the IFB church whose IFB pastor baptized me many years ago.

 

You certainly make a lot of assumptions. Your declaring that attending a nondenominational church makes me prejudice is a very prejudicial statement in and of itself. In your declaration your wrongly prejudge myself, and in your ignorance (it's true meaning, not a slur) you prejudge a church you know nothing about. In casting such disparaging comments you are casting our Baptist pastors in an ill light, as well as my IFB pastor which fully, without reservation, endorses that nondenominational church and her Baptist pastors.

 

You have yet to even come up with an answer as to how my post put down IFBs. Yet you make a baseless charge and then proceed to attack my character, the character of a church you know nothing about, and three fine Baptist pastors.  

 

I do so because you put down the IFB more than any of the others.

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