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Do Preterists Apply Same Rules To Unfulfilled Prophecies As They Do To Fulfulled?


beameup

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44 Prophecies of the Messiah  were fulfilled in Jesus Christ's first advent.  Often these "propecies" amount to only one verse or even

one phrase in a lengthy passage. http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/a/Prophecies-Jesus.htm

 

I have heard that preterists demand that we read "entire passages" for the "context" concerning any prophecy that "futurists" claim is

yet unfulfilled (including the so-called "second-coming" passages).

 

If preterists apply the same "rules" to the first-advent as they do the the second-advent, it would appear that they would

reject all prophecies concerning the Messiah  in order to be "consistent".

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Most pre-mils also say they believe in context, rather than simply taking an isolated Scripture and running with it, so I'm not sure I see your point.

 

If, after taking context into consideration, there is a verse which stands forth, then that should be looked to.

 

In considering this, we have to remember that we have hindsight when it comes to the first coming of Christ. The religious leaders of His day, men who had read and studied intently the passages dealing with the coming Christ, failed to rightly understand the prophecies and didn't recognize Jesus as the Christ.

 

When it comes to dealing with the return of Christ we would be wise to tread carefully and attempt to give full scrutiny to the Word. While doing this we need to keep in mind the most important thing isn't necessarily figuring out the details of His return, but in making sure we are ready when He returns.

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John, it took me awhile to understand you, and I have come to appreciate and respect your position on many things.  You generally give us very good, solid input. 

When it comes to this issue though, my approach is the same as it is on other issues.  You know very well what II Timothy 3:16-17 tells us.  The Lord God Almighty gave us His Scripture so that we could understand (among other things) correct doctrine. 

While I agree that we should be ready for the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, I believe we SHOULD be attempting to "figure out" the details of His return.  I believe the pre-millennial, dispensational view has the best answers, deals with the Scripture as it stands, and does so without creating any contradictions.  Again, I reference Isa. 28:9-13 - it will not all be laying out on the surface.  It will require effort, time, study, meditation, and prayer to come to the right conclusions, but the right conclusions can be attained.

 

In Christ,

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Beam:

Covenanter:

44 Prophecies of the Messiah  were fulfilled in Jesus Christ's first advent.  Often these "propecies" amount to only one verse or even one phrase in a lengthy passage. http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/a/Prophecies-Jesus.htm

Only 44? And not just prophecies, historical events & rituals (e.g. the Passover), example, types & shadows, even buildings - tabernacle & temple, and offices - prophet, priest & king.    

 

I have heard that preterists demand that we read "entire passages" for the "context" concerning any prophecy that "futurists" claim is

yet unfulfilled (including the so-called "second-coming" passages).

Good practice for all Bible teachers & interpreters.

 

If preterists apply the same "rules" to the first-advent as they do the the second-advent, it would appear that they would

reject all prophecies concerning the Messiah  in order to be "consistent".

No, because we believe the old covenant Scriptures are preparing the way for the Messiah of the new covenant. Your link gave a few examples & indicated there are many more.

 

Your inference is that prophecy studied in context does not point to the coming, person & work of the LORD Jesus Christ. While I accept that some prophecies, e.g. quoted by Matthew, are not rigorous in the testimony to Jesus, the fact that they are quoted gives authenticity. And as John notes, when OT Scriptures is quoted, we through "hindsight" recognise them as certainly Messianic.

 

One example: 

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mat. 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. 

  The context is the persistent disobedience & coming judgment of Israel - Ephraim. We would naturally only consider the text to be Messianic because Matthew quotes it. That said, Matthew IS inspired, & not drawing on an irrelevant & obscure Scripture to prove a point. God is dealing with his people according to his eternal plans & purposes, and guided by Hosea we can see Jesus livingthe same experience as the children of Israel - born into Abraham's family; exiled into Egypt; living under the Law, baptised in the Jordan, tempted 40 days (for the 40 years) in the wilderness, living under the old covenant .... etc. Now the Son has come & lives in perfect obedience.

 

You will have to explain by examples where carefully considering the context causes us to reject the OT Scriptures as not being Messianic.

 

 

 

 

    .
 

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Steve #71 on the other thread writes:

"That's just too funny for words, coming from you.  The army of Joel 2 is anything BUT locusts, and the events recorded, particularly in the first half of the chapter have not yet occurred.  Your desire to shove everything in the past demands that you overlook too many things, and spiritualize everything away."

 

Are they spiritual locusts? Or instars of developing locusts? Joel writes:

 

Joel 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

 

2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

 

 

Have you tried reading Joel & considering the context? You need a very good reason for rejecting the simple text of the Word of God & the accurate & literal description of the plague of locusts in Joel 2. Perhaps you are waiting for the 5th trumpet (Rev. 9) for the plague of demonic locusts? Do you expect to see them as literally described?

And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

 

And are you going to tell me that we are still waiting for Pentecost - as prophesied in Joel 2:28-32 & fulfilled in Acts 2?

 

Sorry if I am not a slavish reader of what you write - I am commanded by Paul to: 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

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John, it took me awhile to understand you, and I have come to appreciate and respect your position on many things.  You generally give us very good, solid input. 

When it comes to this issue though, my approach is the same as it is on other issues.  You know very well what II Timothy 3:16-17 tells us.  The Lord God Almighty gave us His Scripture so that we could understand (among other things) correct doctrine. 

While I agree that we should be ready for the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, I believe we SHOULD be attempting to "figure out" the details of His return.  I believe the pre-millennial, dispensational view has the best answers, deals with the Scripture as it stands, and does so without creating any contradictions.  Again, I reference Isa. 28:9-13 - it will not all be laying out on the surface.  It will require effort, time, study, meditation, and prayer to come to the right conclusions, but the right conclusions can be attained.

 

In Christ,

My meaning may not have been clear. I wasn't saying that we shouldn't strive to understand whether the amil, premil, mid trib or some other view best fits the Scripture. That's something I strive for myself, and while I do see some good arguments for at least two or three of the views (there is overlap in some of these) I've yet to see any view presented that is 100% air tight solid. This is why I continue to study the matter and attempt to maintain a teachable spirit in this.

 

I know you hold to the premil view so I will address that. Over the years I've read more regarding the premil view than any other view. One thing that's been a problem is that even among the premil believers, there are several points they don't agree upon. Some of those points probably don't really matter much, but others are rather significant. Some also have a very convoluted way of trying to present the premil view. When it comes to premil folks online, I've encountered a great deal of haughtiness, quickness to attack and shallow defenses of the actual premil view (I'm not referring this observation to anyone here on OB, that observation is from elsewhere online). I've probably mentioned this before, but thus far I've found Pastor David Jeremiah's explanation and defense of the premil view to be the most comprehensible, clear and sound of all that I've read/heard on the subject.

 

In any event, I apologize for giving the wrong impression in my previous post. Were I not interested in learning more in this area, I wouldn't read these threads nor give the postings serious consideration and study. I appreciate those who attempt to clearly and biblically articulate their end-time views and I give them due consideration.

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Steve #71 on the other thread writes:

"That's just too funny for words, coming from you.  The army of Joel 2 is anything BUT locusts, and the events recorded, particularly in the first half of the chapter have not yet occurred.  Your desire to shove everything in the past demands that you overlook too many things, and spiritualize everything away."

 

Are they spiritual locusts? Or instars of developing locusts? Joel writes:

 

Joel 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

 

2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

 

 

Have you tried reading Joel & considering the context? You need a very good reason for rejecting the simple text of the Word of God & the accurate & literal description of the plague of locusts in Joel 2. Perhaps you are waiting for the 5th trumpet (Rev. 9) for the plague of demonic locusts? Do you expect to see them as literally described?

And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

 

And are you going to tell me that we are still waiting for Pentecost - as prophesied in Joel 2:28-32 & fulfilled in Acts 2?

 

Sorry if I am not a slavish reader of what you write - I am commanded by Paul to: 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

:ot:

 

:01nocomment8so:

 

In Christ,

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:ot:

 

:01nocomment8so:

 

In Christ,

 

My post was on topic - the point of the thread is that considering the context leads to a rejection of Messianic prophecy.

 

You made a statement that rejected the obvious meaning in context, but gave no indication of what Joel was actually referring to. I asked you questions, & made a helpful suggestion that you were relating the words of the prophet to Rev. 9.

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Amillennialists-Preterists are happy to accept the prophecies concerning the "suffering servant" Messiah as they are no matter how brief and somewhat cryptic.

However, when it comes to the Messiah ruling from David's Throne, it's "symbolic" and Jesus "rules in the heart of believers from his heavenly throne", and all prophecies were fulfilled by 70AD.

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My post was on topic - the point of the thread is that considering the context leads to a rejection of Messianic prophecy.

 

You made a statement that rejected the obvious meaning in context, but gave no indication of what Joel was actually referring to. I asked you questions, & made a helpful suggestion that you were relating the words of the prophet to Rev. 9.

No, you just want to debate the subject endlessly.

 

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

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Amillennialists-Preterists are happy to accept the prophecies concerning the "suffering servant" Messiah as they are no matter how brief and somewhat cryptic.

However, when it comes to the Messiah ruling from David's Throne, it's "symbolic" and Jesus "rules in the heart of believers from his heavenly throne", and all prophecies were fulfilled by 70AD.

 

Are you trying to tell us that the Holy Spirit misunderstood the words he gave Peter:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

And that Paul also preached error:

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

 

Perhaps Samuel & Solomon were also misled?

1 Sam. 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

 

1 Chr. 29:10 Wherefore David blessed the Lord before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, Lord God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.

11 Thine, O Lord is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all.

....

23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

 

Whose throne did David & Solomon sit on?

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Amillennialists-Preterists are happy to accept the prophecies concerning the "suffering servant" Messiah as they are no matter how brief and somewhat cryptic.

 

I've never thought of Isaiah's "servant songs" as being brief or cryptic.

 

What are you folk doing? You've started a thread, I've explained my "preterist-amil" position in response to the questions. Are you going off to consult how to trip me up?

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And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest:
and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:   Lk 1:30,32
 
Was the angel lying to Mary?
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