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Hebrew Roots Sacred Name


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I have a friend (also Jewish) who was a personal friend of Moishe Rosen, the founder of J4J.  She told me that Moishe Rosen,  "in the time leading up to his death just a few years ago, he was quite concerned about "the Tora Observant crowd" which is so foolishly influenced by not wanting to displease our mainstream-rabbinic Kinsmen in the Flesh."  IOW, the direction of J4J is headed toward the "Hebrew Roots" direction in order to please the Rabbinic Jews.  I observed this also.  The ministry didn't start out that way, but it is certainly headed in that direction....plus they are becoming very ecumenical.   They used to be very evangelical and I used to support the ministry back in the 80s.
 

Do you remember the debate I had with that nutjjob on the 'other' forum over this LOL. Most of the followers of this movement don't understand a lick of Hebrew, or know the difference between translation and transliteration. They insist on using the literal English tetragrammaton, but then spell it backwards LOL

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I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

 

 

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts. 

This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

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I'm finding this discussion quite timely; I just ran into an example of group #3 on the internet today for the first time, and was going to bring them up here as well! The one Torah ministry page I read through sounded good...it specifically Dennie's that they were Judaizers... but it basically said that since the Torah was God's original message to man on how to live, it was relevant for us today to teach us how to live. I'm all for learning God's principles as revealed through the OT, but... there didn't seem to be any recognizance of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New.

Of course, the problem with this, is that the Torah, which even the Jews themselves understand to be specifically that which was given at Sinai, including the 10 commandments, was given, what, some 3-4,000 years after creation, meaning it wasn't God's "original message to mankind", but was specifically God's message given to Israel. God's original message, if one wants to be technical, was separation-'eat of all the trees of the garden, except the one in the midst of the garden'-separation has been a primary command of God since Eden, and man insists on breaking it.

 

  The reason for the flood was a breaking of separation-the sons of God with the daughters of men, (regardless of what it actually refers to) brought about wickedness and the entire earth was punished for it.  

 

A big part of the Sinaitic laws was separation: eat this, not that; don't mix the materials of your garments, don't mix your seed in your fields; dress diffeently than the nations, worship God differently than the nations-all designed to teach them separation between holy and unholy. 

 

Separation has permeated God's will for mankind since the beginning, and man's insistence in breaking separation keeps bringing about God's discipline against them. Today, the insistence of many that call themselves Christians and churches, to break biblical separation between themselves and the world and sin will bring about the end soon enough. Worldly dress, music, amusements, recreations and desires have permeated Christian thought as well as ecumenical-mindedness, which will bring about the one-world church, which will worship the antichrist.

 

Sorry-kind of went off-topic. Back to the main OP!

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This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

So they remade the Urim and Thummim? Cool! I have always wondered what they were. Anyone know? I know the litersl meaning, lights and perfections, (I believe), and I know that somehow they gained God's will through them, but what were they? Who were they actually used? Anyone? Anyone?

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This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

It's neat you brought this up, as I was talking about the Hasidic community in Brooklyn with my father just this morning. I asked my dad if he knew whether or not they followed all 613 mitzvot, or only the ones that pertain to today. He wasn't sure. It's interesting to learn that temple rituals are being practiced in Hasidism. 

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Do you remember the debate I had with that nutjjob on the 'other' forum over this LOL. Most of the followers of this movement don't understand a lick of Hebrew, or know the difference between translation and transliteration. They insist on using the literal English tetragrammaton, but then spell it backwards LOL

Yes!  That guy was clueless, as are many, many 'wannabes'!

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Of course, the problem with this, is that the Torah, which even the Jews themselves understand to be specifically that which was given at Sinai, including the 10 commandments, was given, what, some 3-4,000 years after creation, meaning it wasn't God's "original message to mankind", but was specifically God's message given to Israel. God's original message, if one wants to be technical, was separation-'eat of all the trees of the garden, except the one in the midst of the garden'-separation has been a primary command of God since Eden, and man insists on breaking it.

 

  The reason for the flood was a breaking of separation-the sons of God with the daughters of men, (regardless of what it actually refers to) brought about wickedness and the entire earth was punished for it.  

 

A big part of the Sinaitic laws was separation: eat this, not that; don't mix the materials of your garments, don't mix your seed in your fields; dress diffeently than the nations, worship God differently than the nations-all designed to teach them separation between holy and unholy. 

 

Separation has permeated God's will for mankind since the beginning, and man's insistence in breaking separation keeps bringing about God's discipline against them. Today, the insistence of many that call themselves Christians and churches, to break biblical separation between themselves and the world and sin will bring about the end soon enough. Worldly dress, music, amusements, recreations and desires have permeated Christian thought as well as ecumenical-mindedness, which will bring about the one-world church, which will worship the antichrist.

 

Sorry-kind of went off-topic. Back to the main OP!

 

Yes, but the morals given in them have not changed.

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Yes, but the morals given in them have not changed.

Here is my take on the Torah. Torah is for everyone. There is something we all can glean from reading the first five books of the Bible. What is not for everyone, however, (not even every Jewish person) is the mitzvot. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. With that said. Jesus was saying He loved the law, but He came to be the final sacrificial Lamb. He was the ultimate blood sacrifice. His finished work on the cross means that we don't need a high priest to throw blood on the mercy seat to atone for our sins. 

 

Now, when we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there are obviously mitzvahs that we, as Christians, will feel lead to keep. Such as:

 

To know there is a God.

Not to even think there are any other Gods besides Him.

To love Him.

To fear Him.

To emulate His ways.

To not bear a grudge.

To not blaspheme.

To make no graven idols.

To not listen to false prophets.

To not practice divination or medium work.

To repent and confess of wrongdoings.

To not have relations with your father's wife.

To give charity.

To not sit idly by while someone's life is in danger.

 

Some we obviously would not need to keep, such as:

 

To salt all sacrifices.

To not shave your beard or clip the sides of your head.

To not plants greens or grains in a vineyard.

To not eat raisins.

The first shearing of a sheep must be given to a Kohen.

To redeem the firstborn donkey by giving a lamb to a Kohen.

To burn incense every day.

To wear tzitzit on a four-cornered garment.

 

Now, we don't keep these because of any sort of archaic claim to Jewish heritage or to make an idol out of Judaica, but because we love God. We don't follow His ways because it's what redeems us. Christ redeems us. We don't celebrate Passover seders, because Christ is our Passover Lamb. 

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This is funny because the name for Zeus in Greek, is literally Zeus, not Iesous (Jesus). Also, the contemporary translation for Zeus is no longer Zeus in Greek, but Dias.

One of them told me that the Pope underhandedly corrupted the name of Jesus when it was translated into Latin; to which I say, even if it were true, who cares. I don't believe God is concerned with etymology. Nobody believes Jesus is Zeus or vice versa.

 

http://www.plim.org/JesusOrigin.htm

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Not eat raisins. Really. Why?

I think it has something to do with kosher rules. A Jewish person is not supposed to eat any grape derived product unless from sowing the seeds to the bottling/packaging, every aspect has been handled by Jews. A Gentile cannot touch any part of the process. That's why they have kosher wines and grape juices specifically for seders. 

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I think this is relevant (but may deserve it's own thread). It is 2 hours and presented by a NONBELIEVER (warning) who in the 1st hour explains pharisees, the Torah, and modern day orthodox Jews. In the 2rd hour he presents an argument for Shem-Tov's Matthew being orginal (predating the Greek Matthew). At some point this stuff will probably have to be "confronted". I gave the description in case you don't want to hear anything a non-believer has to say about this stuff:

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Hi everyone!  I just came back to OB, yesterday.  I know this thread is over a month old, but this is timely for me as well.  I left the Internet b/c, after 6 years, the Messianic Jews haven't stopped their heresy on the web.  They are deluded.  I believe the "Messy Antics" came about in the 1970's via Martin Rosen (Moishe Rosen) who wasn't even a Jew.  Jewish law states that to be a Jew, one must be "halachically" Jewish.  For those who don't know, this means the bloodline is from the maternal side of the family.  This is a manmade law, by the Beis Din, the highest Rabbinal council in Judaism.  It doesn't hold any Biblical merit, whatsoever.  Over 90% of MJ's aren't Jewish by blood.  The ones that are, they parade around in their temples and worship like a god.  They play Jewish dress up, or as another post said, they are "wannabe Jews."  Jews, who go to these temples are out in 3 years max.  They head straight back to Judaism and are stronger than ever.  They go straight to Orthodox - Hasidic shuls or synangoes.  Statistics prove that Messianic Jews don't win people to the Lord.  How could they when they practice heresey.  Statistically speaking, Jews are won to the Lord, by Bible Believing Christians.

Someone mentioned Jews for Jesus.  J4J's are not Messianic Jews.  They do believe in salvation "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ."  However, they have become very weak evangelicals.  Some time ago, Jews also started a counter missionary group called "Jews for Judaism."  It is especially big in Israel.  Also, many Jews believe that MJ's are Christians.  They don't know that MJ's don't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ.  In reality, they are a parasite that attempts to proselytize both Christians and Jews, although they are a cult.  





 

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candlelight...

 

I knew Moishe Rosen when I lived in Denver, CO.  He was very Jewish.  His parents were Reform Jews from Austria.  He and his wife trusted Christ in 1953 and Moishe became a Baptist minister.  He founded Jews for Jesus in 1973.  He passed away May 22, 2010.  However, Moishe Rosen isn't the "originator" of "Messy Antics" (Messianic Judaism).  Here is a portion of an article written by Dr. Mark Robinson, director of Jewish Awareness Ministries (a non Messianic/Hebrew Roots Jewish evangelism ministry) called "Doctrinal Dangers in the Messianic Movement":

 

HISTORY OF MESSIANIC JUDAISM

 

Present-day Messianic Judaism has its origins in the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America (HCAA) which was established in 1915. At the 1973 biennial meeting of the HCAA in Bradenton, Florida, there was an effort to change the name to Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. This change did not take place until 1975 but 1973 can be looked at as the first organized attempt to begin the modern-day Messianic Movement. Then in 1975, Phil Goble, a Gentile believer, published Everything You Need to Grow a Messianic Synagogue. American Board of Missions to the Jews (now Chosen People Ministries) reviewed the manual and attributed the beginning of Messianic Synagogues to Goble.4

 

Presently there are more than 300 Messianic congregations5 throughout the world. The majority of these congregations are located in the United States. Some Jewish believers will drive many miles, passing good Bible believing churches, to be part of these congregations.

 

4 The Chosen People, Messianic Synagogues Commentary, Vol. LXXXI No.5, page 14, Jan. 1976.

 

5 Wasserman, Jeffrey, Messianic Jewish Congregations: Who Sold this Business to the Gentiles?, pg. 3, University Press of America, 2000.

I attended a Messianic Jewish congregation in Denver, Colorado for about 10 years...and you are correct, these congregations do not evangelize...their main focus is "Jewish identity", not Christ.  I went off and on for 10 years.  I was raised in Reform Judaism, which is very liberal.  When I trusted Christ in 1974, going "back to Jewish roots was the last thing on my mind.  I was going to the Messianic congregation because I was told by Messianic Jews that this is what was expected of me.  After I left the Messianic movement, I never "turned back".  My roots are in Christ, but my ethnicity as a Jew will never change, and the "heritage" is rich. 

 

It is also true that the majority of the members in Messianic congregation are Gentiles (wannabee Jews).

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candlelight...

 

I knew Moishe Rosen when I lived in Denver, CO.  He was very Jewish.  His parents were Reform Jews from Austria.  He and his wife trusted Christ in 1953 and Moishe became a Baptist minister.  He founded Jews for Jesus in 1973.  He passed away May 22, 2010.  However, Moishe Rosen isn't the "originator" of "Messy Antics" (Messianic Judaism).  Here is a portion of an article written by Dr. Mark Robinson, director of Jewish Awareness Ministries (a non Messianic/Hebrew Roots Jewish evangelism ministry) called "Doctrinal Dangers in the Messianic Movement":

 

I attended a Messianic Jewish congregation in Denver, Colorado for about 10 years...and you are correct, these congregations do not evangelize...their main focus is "Jewish identity", not Christ.  I went off and on for 10 years.  I was raised in Reform Judaism, which is very liberal.  When I trusted Christ in 1974, going "back to Jewish roots was the last thing on my mind.  I was going to the Messianic congregation because I was told by Messianic Jews that this is what was expected of me.  After I left the Messianic movement, I never "turned back".  My roots are in Christ, but my ethnicity as a Jew will never change, and the "heritage" is rich. 

 

It is also true that the majority of the members in Messianic congregation are Gentiles (wannabee Jews).

My brother in law, Elisha, was personal friends with Moishe through the friendship of Elisha' father (a Holocaust survivor). Moishe spent time trying to convert him but he never capitulated. We were intending on going to his funeral in 2010 but that's around the time Elisha and I started having problems with a Muslim group. 

 

So yes, Moishe was definitely Jewish. Very liberal and ecumenical, but nonetheless Jewish.

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The Orthodox/Hasidic, Conservative, and Conservadox Jews are wrong about Moishe Rosen, then.  Sadly, angry Jews believe that born again Christians are like the Jews yoked with Moishe Rosen.  I did know he was a Baptist minister, but was led to believe he became Messianic b/c his dad was a Jew.  Thanks for clarifying LindaR and Dr. James Ach.   

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They get around that by claiming...

 

1 Samuel 15:22 
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

and...
 
Hosea 6:6 
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 
Well...let me recant.  I don't know if "they" claim that or not.  I did hear a Jewish man use those verses to explain away their lack of sacrifice though.  It wouldn't surprise me if "they" do the same.
 
 

 

If this is their excuse then I sure hope they are absolutely perfect, because to transgress one is to transgress ALL.

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If this is their excuse then I sure hope they are absolutely perfect, because to transgress one is to transgress ALL.

This thread was started on my birthday and here we are two months later and we're still posting in it on my wife's birthday!

 

They can't properly offer sacrifices without the temple, and as the OT shows and the NT tells us, no one can keep the law which is why we need a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord, the One and Only Way to salvation and right standing with God.

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