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    • By Jim_Alaska in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals
         33
      Closed Communion
      James Foley
       
      I Corinthians 11:17-34: "Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

      INTRODUCTION

      Historic Baptists, true Baptists, have believed in and still believe in closed communion. Baptists impose upon themselves the same restrictions that they impose on others concerning the Lord’s Supper. Baptists have always insisted that it is the Lord’s Table, not theirs; and He alone has the right to say who shall sit at His table. No amount of so called brotherly love, or ecumenical spirit, should cause us to invite to His table those who have not complied with the requirements laid down plainly in His inspired Word. With respect to Bible doctrines we must always use the scripture as our guide and practice. For Baptists, two of the most important doctrines are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper. These are the only two doctrines we recognize as Church Ordinances. The Bible is very clear in teaching how these doctrines are to be practiced and by whom.

      We only have two ordinances that we must never compromise or we risk our very existence, they are Baptism and The Lord’s Supper.

      The moment we deviate from the precise method God has prescribed we have started down the slippery slope of error. True Baptists have held fast to the original doctrine of The Lord’s Supper from the time of Christ and the Apostles.

      Unfortunately, in this day of what the Bible describes as the age of luke warmness, Baptists are becoming careless in regard to strictly following the pattern laid out for us in Scripture. Many of our Bible colleges are graduating otherwise sincere, Godly and dedicated pastors and teachers who have not been taught the very strict, biblical requirements that surround the Lord’s Supper. Any Bible college that neglects to teach its students the differences surrounding Closed Communion, Close Communion and Open Communion is not simply short changing its students; it is also not equipping their students to carry on sound Bible traditions. The result is men of God and churches that fall into error. And as we will see, this is serious error.

      Should we as Baptists ignore the restrictions made by our Lord and Master? NO! When we hold to the restrictions placed upon the Lord’s Supper by our Master, we are defending the "faith which was once delivered to the saints" Jude 3.

      The Lord’s Supper is rigidly restricted and I will show this in the following facts:

      IT IS RESTRICTED AS TO PLACE

      A. I Corinthians 11:18 says, "When ye come together in the church." This does not mean the church building; they had none. In other words, when the church assembles. The supper is to be observed by the church, in church capacity. Again this does not mean the church house. Ekklesia, the Greek word for church, means assembly. "When ye come together in the church," is when the church assembles.

      B. When we say church we mean an assembly of properly baptized believers. Acts 2:41-42: "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

      The church is made up of saved people who are baptized by immersion. In the Bible, belief precedes baptism. That’s the Bible way.

      Acts 8:12-13, "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done."

      When we say properly baptized, we mean immersed. No unbeliever should take the Lord’s supper, and no non-immersed believer should take the supper. Those who are sprinkled are not baptized and cannot receive the supper. The Greek word for baptize is baptizo, and it always means to immerse.

      "In every case where communion is referred to, or where it may possibly have been administered, the believers had been baptized Acts 2:42; 8:12; 8:38; 10:47; 6:14-15; 18:8; 20:7. Baptism comes before communion, just as repentance and faith precede baptism".

      C. The Lord’s Supper is for baptized believers in church capacity: "When ye come together in the church," again not a building, but the assembly of the properly baptized believers.

      D. The fact that the Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, to be observed in church capacity, is pointed out by the fact that it is for those who have been immersed and added to the fellowship of the church.

      E. The Lord’s Supper is never spoken of in connection with individuals. When it is referred to, it is only referred to in reference to baptized believers in local church capacity I Cor. 11:20-26).

      I want to quote Dr. W.W. Hamilton,

      "The individual administration of the ordinance has no Bible warrant and is a relic of Romanism. The Lord’s Supper is a church ordinance, and anything which goes beyond or comes short of this fails for want of scriptural example or command".

      “The practice of taking a little communion kit to hospitals, nursing homes, etc. is unscriptural and does not follow the scriptural example.”

      IT IS RESTRICTED TO A UNITED CHURCH

      A. The Bible in I Cor. 11:18 is very strong in condemning divisions around the Lord’s table. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
      19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
      20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

      There were no less than four divisions in the Corinthian church.
      I Cor. 1:12: "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

      Because of these divisions, it was impossible for them to scripturally eat the Lord’s Supper. Division in the local church is reason to hold off observing the Lord’s Supper. But there are also other reasons to forego taking the Lord’s Supper. If there is gross sin in the membership we do not take it. Here is scriptural evidence for this: 1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
      8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      B. At this point, I want to ask these questions: Are there not doctrinal divisions among the many denominations? Is it not our doctrinal differences that cause us to be separate religious bodies?

      IT IS RESTRICTED BY DOCTRINE

      A. Those in the early church at Jerusalem who partook "continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine" Acts 2:42. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

      B. Those that do not hold to apostolic truth are not to partake. This means there is to be discipline in the local body. How can you discipline those who do not belong to the local body? You can’t. The clear command of scripture is to withdraw fellowship from those who are not doctrinally sound.

      II Thes 3:6: "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
      Rom. 16:17: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
      To commune together means to have the same doctrine.
      II Thes. 2:15: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
      II John 10-11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

      C. Some Baptists in our day have watered down this doctrine by practicing what they call “Close Communion.” By this they mean that they believe that members of another Baptist church may take communion with us because they are of the same beliefs. Once again, this is unscriptural.

      The welcome to the Lord's Table should not be extended beyond the discipline of the local church. When we take the Lord’s Supper there is supposed to be no gross sin among us and no divisions among us. We have no idea of the spiritual condition of another church’s members. If there is sin or division in the case of this other church’s members, we have no way of knowing it. We cannot discipline them because they are not members of our church. This is why we practice “Closed” communion, meaning it is restricted solely to our church membership. 
      So then, in closing I would like to reiterate the three different ideas concerning the Lord’s Supper and who is to take it. 
      Closed Communion = Only members of a single local church. 
      Close Communion = Members of like faith and order may partake. 
      Open Communion = If you claim to be a Christian, or simply attending the service, you may partake. 
      It is no small thing to attempt to change that which was implemented by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 
      Mt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 
      Many of our Baptist churches have a real need to consider the gravity of the act of observing The Lord’s Supper. It is not a light thing that is to be taken casually or without regard to the spiritual condition of ourselves or our church.
      1Co. 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

       28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

       29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

       30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Hebrew Roots Sacred Name


2T3:16

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I have a friend (also Jewish) who was a personal friend of Moishe Rosen, the founder of J4J.  She told me that Moishe Rosen,  "in the time leading up to his death just a few years ago, he was quite concerned about "the Tora Observant crowd" which is so foolishly influenced by not wanting to displease our mainstream-rabbinic Kinsmen in the Flesh."  IOW, the direction of J4J is headed toward the "Hebrew Roots" direction in order to please the Rabbinic Jews.  I observed this also.  The ministry didn't start out that way, but it is certainly headed in that direction....plus they are becoming very ecumenical.   They used to be very evangelical and I used to support the ministry back in the 80s.
 

Do you remember the debate I had with that nutjjob on the 'other' forum over this LOL. Most of the followers of this movement don't understand a lick of Hebrew, or know the difference between translation and transliteration. They insist on using the literal English tetragrammaton, but then spell it backwards LOL

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I think it's vital to understand that there are three different factions being discussed here.

 

 

3. Torah Observant Christians are Christians who believe in the Trinity, believe in the second coming of Christ, believe in Jesus as the Messiah...but, there is heavy emphasis on learning Hebrew as a language to better understand the Bible, following the laws of the Torah which pertain to modern times (i.e., Jews today typically do not observe Torah laws that pertain to the Levitical priesthood or temple worship), observing a Saturday Shabbat, and celebrating the traditional Jewish feasts. 

This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

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I'm finding this discussion quite timely; I just ran into an example of group #3 on the internet today for the first time, and was going to bring them up here as well! The one Torah ministry page I read through sounded good...it specifically Dennie's that they were Judaizers... but it basically said that since the Torah was God's original message to man on how to live, it was relevant for us today to teach us how to live. I'm all for learning God's principles as revealed through the OT, but... there didn't seem to be any recognizance of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New.

Of course, the problem with this, is that the Torah, which even the Jews themselves understand to be specifically that which was given at Sinai, including the 10 commandments, was given, what, some 3-4,000 years after creation, meaning it wasn't God's "original message to mankind", but was specifically God's message given to Israel. God's original message, if one wants to be technical, was separation-'eat of all the trees of the garden, except the one in the midst of the garden'-separation has been a primary command of God since Eden, and man insists on breaking it.

 

  The reason for the flood was a breaking of separation-the sons of God with the daughters of men, (regardless of what it actually refers to) brought about wickedness and the entire earth was punished for it.  

 

A big part of the Sinaitic laws was separation: eat this, not that; don't mix the materials of your garments, don't mix your seed in your fields; dress diffeently than the nations, worship God differently than the nations-all designed to teach them separation between holy and unholy. 

 

Separation has permeated God's will for mankind since the beginning, and man's insistence in breaking separation keeps bringing about God's discipline against them. Today, the insistence of many that call themselves Christians and churches, to break biblical separation between themselves and the world and sin will bring about the end soon enough. Worldly dress, music, amusements, recreations and desires have permeated Christian thought as well as ecumenical-mindedness, which will bring about the one-world church, which will worship the antichrist.

 

Sorry-kind of went off-topic. Back to the main OP!

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This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

So they remade the Urim and Thummim? Cool! I have always wondered what they were. Anyone know? I know the litersl meaning, lights and perfections, (I believe), and I know that somehow they gained God's will through them, but what were they? Who were they actually used? Anyone? Anyone?

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This is changing. Their are mock temples set up where even Hasidic, Sephardic, Mazrahi Jews are practicing temple rituals and sacrifices (without actual animals) in expectation of the rebuilding of the temple. All of the relics, Urim and Thummim, Mitre, etc..have all been recast and remade.

 

And many of the newer followers in America mistake the Torah for the entire OT which is not correct. Properly, the OT is the Tanakh, and the Torah are the first 5 books-Bereishit, Shemot, Vayikra, Bamidbar, and Devarim.

It's neat you brought this up, as I was talking about the Hasidic community in Brooklyn with my father just this morning. I asked my dad if he knew whether or not they followed all 613 mitzvot, or only the ones that pertain to today. He wasn't sure. It's interesting to learn that temple rituals are being practiced in Hasidism. 

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Do you remember the debate I had with that nutjjob on the 'other' forum over this LOL. Most of the followers of this movement don't understand a lick of Hebrew, or know the difference between translation and transliteration. They insist on using the literal English tetragrammaton, but then spell it backwards LOL

Yes!  That guy was clueless, as are many, many 'wannabes'!

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Of course, the problem with this, is that the Torah, which even the Jews themselves understand to be specifically that which was given at Sinai, including the 10 commandments, was given, what, some 3-4,000 years after creation, meaning it wasn't God's "original message to mankind", but was specifically God's message given to Israel. God's original message, if one wants to be technical, was separation-'eat of all the trees of the garden, except the one in the midst of the garden'-separation has been a primary command of God since Eden, and man insists on breaking it.

 

  The reason for the flood was a breaking of separation-the sons of God with the daughters of men, (regardless of what it actually refers to) brought about wickedness and the entire earth was punished for it.  

 

A big part of the Sinaitic laws was separation: eat this, not that; don't mix the materials of your garments, don't mix your seed in your fields; dress diffeently than the nations, worship God differently than the nations-all designed to teach them separation between holy and unholy. 

 

Separation has permeated God's will for mankind since the beginning, and man's insistence in breaking separation keeps bringing about God's discipline against them. Today, the insistence of many that call themselves Christians and churches, to break biblical separation between themselves and the world and sin will bring about the end soon enough. Worldly dress, music, amusements, recreations and desires have permeated Christian thought as well as ecumenical-mindedness, which will bring about the one-world church, which will worship the antichrist.

 

Sorry-kind of went off-topic. Back to the main OP!

 

Yes, but the morals given in them have not changed.

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Yes, but the morals given in them have not changed.

Here is my take on the Torah. Torah is for everyone. There is something we all can glean from reading the first five books of the Bible. What is not for everyone, however, (not even every Jewish person) is the mitzvot. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. With that said. Jesus was saying He loved the law, but He came to be the final sacrificial Lamb. He was the ultimate blood sacrifice. His finished work on the cross means that we don't need a high priest to throw blood on the mercy seat to atone for our sins. 

 

Now, when we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there are obviously mitzvahs that we, as Christians, will feel lead to keep. Such as:

 

To know there is a God.

Not to even think there are any other Gods besides Him.

To love Him.

To fear Him.

To emulate His ways.

To not bear a grudge.

To not blaspheme.

To make no graven idols.

To not listen to false prophets.

To not practice divination or medium work.

To repent and confess of wrongdoings.

To not have relations with your father's wife.

To give charity.

To not sit idly by while someone's life is in danger.

 

Some we obviously would not need to keep, such as:

 

To salt all sacrifices.

To not shave your beard or clip the sides of your head.

To not plants greens or grains in a vineyard.

To not eat raisins.

The first shearing of a sheep must be given to a Kohen.

To redeem the firstborn donkey by giving a lamb to a Kohen.

To burn incense every day.

To wear tzitzit on a four-cornered garment.

 

Now, we don't keep these because of any sort of archaic claim to Jewish heritage or to make an idol out of Judaica, but because we love God. We don't follow His ways because it's what redeems us. Christ redeems us. We don't celebrate Passover seders, because Christ is our Passover Lamb. 

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This is funny because the name for Zeus in Greek, is literally Zeus, not Iesous (Jesus). Also, the contemporary translation for Zeus is no longer Zeus in Greek, but Dias.

One of them told me that the Pope underhandedly corrupted the name of Jesus when it was translated into Latin; to which I say, even if it were true, who cares. I don't believe God is concerned with etymology. Nobody believes Jesus is Zeus or vice versa.

 

http://www.plim.org/JesusOrigin.htm

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Not eat raisins. Really. Why?

I think it has something to do with kosher rules. A Jewish person is not supposed to eat any grape derived product unless from sowing the seeds to the bottling/packaging, every aspect has been handled by Jews. A Gentile cannot touch any part of the process. That's why they have kosher wines and grape juices specifically for seders. 

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I think this is relevant (but may deserve it's own thread). It is 2 hours and presented by a NONBELIEVER (warning) who in the 1st hour explains pharisees, the Torah, and modern day orthodox Jews. In the 2rd hour he presents an argument for Shem-Tov's Matthew being orginal (predating the Greek Matthew). At some point this stuff will probably have to be "confronted". I gave the description in case you don't want to hear anything a non-believer has to say about this stuff:

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Hi everyone!  I just came back to OB, yesterday.  I know this thread is over a month old, but this is timely for me as well.  I left the Internet b/c, after 6 years, the Messianic Jews haven't stopped their heresy on the web.  They are deluded.  I believe the "Messy Antics" came about in the 1970's via Martin Rosen (Moishe Rosen) who wasn't even a Jew.  Jewish law states that to be a Jew, one must be "halachically" Jewish.  For those who don't know, this means the bloodline is from the maternal side of the family.  This is a manmade law, by the Beis Din, the highest Rabbinal council in Judaism.  It doesn't hold any Biblical merit, whatsoever.  Over 90% of MJ's aren't Jewish by blood.  The ones that are, they parade around in their temples and worship like a god.  They play Jewish dress up, or as another post said, they are "wannabe Jews."  Jews, who go to these temples are out in 3 years max.  They head straight back to Judaism and are stronger than ever.  They go straight to Orthodox - Hasidic shuls or synangoes.  Statistics prove that Messianic Jews don't win people to the Lord.  How could they when they practice heresey.  Statistically speaking, Jews are won to the Lord, by Bible Believing Christians.

Someone mentioned Jews for Jesus.  J4J's are not Messianic Jews.  They do believe in salvation "by grace through faith in Jesus Christ."  However, they have become very weak evangelicals.  Some time ago, Jews also started a counter missionary group called "Jews for Judaism."  It is especially big in Israel.  Also, many Jews believe that MJ's are Christians.  They don't know that MJ's don't believe in the deity of Jesus Christ.  In reality, they are a parasite that attempts to proselytize both Christians and Jews, although they are a cult.  





 

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candlelight...

 

I knew Moishe Rosen when I lived in Denver, CO.  He was very Jewish.  His parents were Reform Jews from Austria.  He and his wife trusted Christ in 1953 and Moishe became a Baptist minister.  He founded Jews for Jesus in 1973.  He passed away May 22, 2010.  However, Moishe Rosen isn't the "originator" of "Messy Antics" (Messianic Judaism).  Here is a portion of an article written by Dr. Mark Robinson, director of Jewish Awareness Ministries (a non Messianic/Hebrew Roots Jewish evangelism ministry) called "Doctrinal Dangers in the Messianic Movement":

 

HISTORY OF MESSIANIC JUDAISM

 

Present-day Messianic Judaism has its origins in the Hebrew Christian Alliance of America (HCAA) which was established in 1915. At the 1973 biennial meeting of the HCAA in Bradenton, Florida, there was an effort to change the name to Messianic Jewish Alliance of America. This change did not take place until 1975 but 1973 can be looked at as the first organized attempt to begin the modern-day Messianic Movement. Then in 1975, Phil Goble, a Gentile believer, published Everything You Need to Grow a Messianic Synagogue. American Board of Missions to the Jews (now Chosen People Ministries) reviewed the manual and attributed the beginning of Messianic Synagogues to Goble.4

 

Presently there are more than 300 Messianic congregations5 throughout the world. The majority of these congregations are located in the United States. Some Jewish believers will drive many miles, passing good Bible believing churches, to be part of these congregations.

 

4 The Chosen People, Messianic Synagogues Commentary, Vol. LXXXI No.5, page 14, Jan. 1976.

 

5 Wasserman, Jeffrey, Messianic Jewish Congregations: Who Sold this Business to the Gentiles?, pg. 3, University Press of America, 2000.

I attended a Messianic Jewish congregation in Denver, Colorado for about 10 years...and you are correct, these congregations do not evangelize...their main focus is "Jewish identity", not Christ.  I went off and on for 10 years.  I was raised in Reform Judaism, which is very liberal.  When I trusted Christ in 1974, going "back to Jewish roots was the last thing on my mind.  I was going to the Messianic congregation because I was told by Messianic Jews that this is what was expected of me.  After I left the Messianic movement, I never "turned back".  My roots are in Christ, but my ethnicity as a Jew will never change, and the "heritage" is rich. 

 

It is also true that the majority of the members in Messianic congregation are Gentiles (wannabee Jews).

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candlelight...

 

I knew Moishe Rosen when I lived in Denver, CO.  He was very Jewish.  His parents were Reform Jews from Austria.  He and his wife trusted Christ in 1953 and Moishe became a Baptist minister.  He founded Jews for Jesus in 1973.  He passed away May 22, 2010.  However, Moishe Rosen isn't the "originator" of "Messy Antics" (Messianic Judaism).  Here is a portion of an article written by Dr. Mark Robinson, director of Jewish Awareness Ministries (a non Messianic/Hebrew Roots Jewish evangelism ministry) called "Doctrinal Dangers in the Messianic Movement":

 

I attended a Messianic Jewish congregation in Denver, Colorado for about 10 years...and you are correct, these congregations do not evangelize...their main focus is "Jewish identity", not Christ.  I went off and on for 10 years.  I was raised in Reform Judaism, which is very liberal.  When I trusted Christ in 1974, going "back to Jewish roots was the last thing on my mind.  I was going to the Messianic congregation because I was told by Messianic Jews that this is what was expected of me.  After I left the Messianic movement, I never "turned back".  My roots are in Christ, but my ethnicity as a Jew will never change, and the "heritage" is rich. 

 

It is also true that the majority of the members in Messianic congregation are Gentiles (wannabee Jews).

My brother in law, Elisha, was personal friends with Moishe through the friendship of Elisha' father (a Holocaust survivor). Moishe spent time trying to convert him but he never capitulated. We were intending on going to his funeral in 2010 but that's around the time Elisha and I started having problems with a Muslim group. 

 

So yes, Moishe was definitely Jewish. Very liberal and ecumenical, but nonetheless Jewish.

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The Orthodox/Hasidic, Conservative, and Conservadox Jews are wrong about Moishe Rosen, then.  Sadly, angry Jews believe that born again Christians are like the Jews yoked with Moishe Rosen.  I did know he was a Baptist minister, but was led to believe he became Messianic b/c his dad was a Jew.  Thanks for clarifying LindaR and Dr. James Ach.   

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They get around that by claiming...

 

1 Samuel 15:22 
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

and...
 
Hosea 6:6 
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
 
Well...let me recant.  I don't know if "they" claim that or not.  I did hear a Jewish man use those verses to explain away their lack of sacrifice though.  It wouldn't surprise me if "they" do the same.
 
 

 

If this is their excuse then I sure hope they are absolutely perfect, because to transgress one is to transgress ALL.

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If this is their excuse then I sure hope they are absolutely perfect, because to transgress one is to transgress ALL.

This thread was started on my birthday and here we are two months later and we're still posting in it on my wife's birthday!

 

They can't properly offer sacrifices without the temple, and as the OT shows and the NT tells us, no one can keep the law which is why we need a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord, the One and Only Way to salvation and right standing with God.

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    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 0 replies
    • Razor

      “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).”
      ― Mark Twain
      · 1 reply
    • Razor

      Psalms 139 Psalm 139:9-10
      9. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10. even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy righthand shall hold me. 
       
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    • Bro. West  »  Pastor Scott Markle

      Advanced revelation, then...prophecy IS advanced revelation in the context of the apostles.
      I really do not know where you are going with this. The Bible itself has revelations and prophecies and not all revelations are prophecies.
      Paul had things revealed to him that were hid and unknown that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs.
      How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:3-9
      And I do not mean this as a Hyper-dispensationalist would, for there were people in Christ before Paul (Rom. 16:7). This is not prophecy for there are none concerning the Church age in the O.T..
      Israel rejected the New Wine (Jesus Christ) and said the Old Wine (law) was better, had they tasted the New Wine there would be no church age or mystery as spoken above. to be revealed.
      It was a revealed mystery. Sure there are things concerning the Gentiles after the this age. And we can now see types in the Old Testament (Boaz and Ruth) concerning a Gentile bride, but this is hindsight.
      Peter could have had a ham sandwich in Acts 2, but he did not know it till later, by revelation. But this has nothing to do with 1John 2;23 and those 10 added words in italics. Where did they get them? Did the violate Pro. 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Where did they get this advance revelation? Was it from man, God or the devil?
        I just read your comment and you bypassed what I wrote concerning book arrangement, chapters being added and verse numberings and such. There is no scripture support for these either, should we reject these?
      Happy New Year
      · 0 replies
    • Bro. West

      Seeing it is Christ----mas time and I was answering question on Luke 2:33 concerning Jesus, Mary and Joseph . I thought it would be fitting to display a poem i wrote concerning the matter.
      SCRIPTURAL MARY

      I WALK NOT ON WATER NOR CHANGE IT TO WINE
      SO HEARKEN O’ SINNER TO THIS STORY OF MINE
      I, AM A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM SINNER BY BIRTH
      A HAND MAID OF LOW ESTATE USED HERE ON EARTH
      MY HAIR IS NOT GENTILE BLOND, I HAVE NOT EYES OF BLUE
      A MOTHER OF MANY CHILDREN A DAUGHTER OF A JEW
      FOR JOSEPH MY HUSBAND DID HONOUR OUR BED
      TO FATHER OUR CHILDREN WHO NOW ARE ALL DEAD
      BUT I SPEAK NOT OF THESE WHO I LOVED SO WELL
      BUT OF THE FIRST BORN WHICH SAVED ME FROM HELL
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               2
      WHEN I WAS A VIRGIN UNKNOWN BY MAN
      THE ANGEL OF GOD SPOKE OF GOD’S PLAN
      FOR I HAD BEEN CHOSEN A FAVOUR VESSEL OF CLAY
      TO BARE THE SON OF THE HIGHEST BY AN UNUSUAL WAY
      FOR THE SCRIPTURE FORETOLD OF WHAT WAS TO BE
      SO MY WOMB GOD FILLED WHEN HE OVER SHADOW ME
      BUT THE LAW OF MOSES DID DEMAND MY LIFE
      WOULD JOSEPH MY BETROTHED MAKE ME HIS WIFE
      I THOUGHT ON THESE THINGS WITH SO NEEDLESS FEARS
      BUT A DREAM HE RECEIVED ENDED ALL FEARS
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                              3
      THEN MY SOUL DID REJOICE IN GOD MY SAVIOR
      HE SCATTERED THE PROUD AND BLESS ME WITH FAVOR
      O’ THE RICH ARE EMPTY, THE HUNGRY HAVE GOOD THINGS
      FOR THE THRONE OF DAVID WOULD HAVE JESUS THE KING
      BUT BEFORE I DELIVERED THE MAN CHILD OF OLD
      CAESAR WITH TAXES DEMANDED OUR GOLD
      TO THE CITY OF DAVID JOSEPH AND I WENT
      ON A BEAST OF BURDEN OUR STRENGTH NEAR SPEND
      NO ROOM AT An INN, BUT A STABLE WAS FOUND
      WITH STRAW AND DUNG LAID ON THE GROUND
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
                                                  4
      MY MATRIX WAS OPEN IN A PLACE SO PROFANE
      FROM THE GLORY OF GLORIES TO A BEGGAR’S DOMAIN
      SO WE WRAPPED THE CHILD GIVEN TO THE HEATHEN A STRANGER
      NO REPUTATION IS SOUGHT TO BE BORN IN A MANGER
      HIS STAR WAS ABOVE US THE HOST OF HEAVEN DID SING
      FOR SHEPHERDS AND WISE MEN WORSHIP ONLY THE KING
      BUT HEROD THAT DEVIL SOUGHT FOR HIS SOUL
      AND MURDER RACHEL’S CHILDREN UNDER TWO YEARS OLD
      BUT JOSEPH MY HUSBAND WAS WARNED IN A DREAM
      SO WE FLED INTO EGYPT BECAUSE OF HIS SCHEME
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY SO TRUST ME NOT
                                               5
      SO THE GIVER OF LIFE, THE ROCK OF ALL AGES
      GREW UP TO FULFILL THE HOLY PAGES
      HE PREACH WITH AUTHORITY LIKE NONE BEFORE
      PLEASE TRUST HIS WORDS AND NOT THE GREAT WHORE
      HER BLACK ROBE PRIEST FILL THEIR LIPS WITH MY NAME
      WITH BLASPHEMOUS PRAISE, DAMMATION AND SHAME
      THERE ARE NO NAIL PRINTS IN MY HANDS, MY BODY DID NOT ARISE
      NOR, AM A DEMON OF FATIMA FLOATING IN THE SKY
      THERE IS NO DEITY IN MY VEINS FOR ADAM CAME FROM SOD
      FOR I, AM, MOTHER OF THE SON OF MAN NOT THE MOTHER OF GOD
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, SO TRUST ME NOT
      6
      FOR MY SOUL WAS PURCHASED BY GOD UPON THE CROSS
      FOR MY SINS HE DID SUFFER AN UNMEASURABLE COST
      I WILL NOT STEAL HIS GLORY WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD
      ENDURING SPIT AND THORNS PLACED ON HIS HEAD
      YET, IF YOU WISH TO HONOR ME THEN GIVE ME NONE AT ALL
      BUT TRUST THE LAMB WHO STOOL IN PILATE’S HALL
      CALL NOT ON THIS REDEEMED WOMAN IN YOUR TIME OF FEAR
      FOR I WILL NOT GIVE ANSWER NEITHER WILL I HEAR
      AND WHEN THE BOOKS ARE OPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE
      I AMEN YOUR DAMNATION THAT TRUST NOT HIM ALONE
      MY FLESH SAW CORRUPTION MY BONES THEY DID ROT
      MY PAPS ARE NOT HOLY, O’ SINNER TRUST ME NOT

                       WRITTEN BY BRO. WEST
       
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